209 replies to this topic

[Pat Kell]

Wing 0, on 18 August 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

Btw JeremiahRose. You best be careful with the retardency you are making right now. Its really taxing a lot of players. Ash gave you exactly what you should've learned by and the fact you kept arguing him about it is not a good thing especially against players who done more than what you have done. Ive seen how many games you've done and its an embarrassment. You havn't done at least 100 games yet and you only have done 22 and then you come on to these forums and ***** because you got murdered by players who play the mode in its general outline. Like Ash's picture said. You don't follow that outline, then you will fail.

I had a nice conversation with Jeremiah and feel like he is trying his best to take some advice from a crotchety old man so I hope you do the same. Speaking to people with that level of disrespect is not only unlikely to win them over to your side but will also affect your ability to persuade others that you are right. Try toning it down a bit and you might get more traction. The same could be said to a lot of the posts I see here.

Dropping solo in CW can suck really bad and sometimes people come here to vent a little. Let them vent. Show them that there are mechanisms out there to help and be on about your day. There is no need to get so worked up about it and can in fact hurt your attempt to improve the situation.

Edited by Pat Kell, 18 August 2017 - 03:31 PM.

[LordNothing]

im usually pro pug in these cases but spawncamp is entirely the fault of the team that gets camped. seems the normal response for a bad push is to cower in terror in the drop zone. if the enemy goes through you and you do not push out to meet them they will have you pinned in your derp zone. and generally if that ever happens you have already lost. the game should end right then and there.

things that cause this to happen: id say the #1 is nascar. if you overextend to a position where one of the drop zones is a very short distance from the enemy line and you are on the other side of the map doing who knows what, then that leaves the end dropzone wide open from being camped to death. leave that crap in qp. it might work out fine in conquest or domination, but in any mode that requires a kill lead nascar is going to end you. #2 is probibly cowardice. too many campy lermy mechs wanting to play fp like it was qp. if you hide in the drop zone then the enemy has no choice but to commence a spawn camping. #3 is selfishness. people who do not fight and die with their team and this really breaks up wave formation. the result is scattered players. as the enemy picks you off one at a time it draws the enemy closer and closer to the drop zone and thats pretty much the end of that game.

i have nothing against people who want to pug in fp but seriously you have to play it like fp, you cant play it like qp and expect to win. you can whine about it but you are better off learning tactics that prevent spawn camping from happening.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 August 2017 - 10:02 PM.

[Commander A9]

Finally, some understanding of the truth!

[Insanity09]

1. Losing consistently sucks.
2. Losing overwhelmingly sucks hard.

Those are the no-brainers.

3. QP does not train you to do FP (CW).
4. Even Group play does not train you to do FP (CW), though it is slightly better.
5. Scouting does not train you for 12-man FP.
6. If you suck hard enough, you are not viewed as good recruitment material by most worthy units.
6a. You are unlikely to see worthy units in PUG FP. They don't like losing either.

Now the fun stuff.

7. You can't learn anything when you get totally crushed, killed in your dropship, or otherwise owned.
8. If you can't learn, you can't improve.
9. If you don't improve, you'll keep losing, badly. See # 1 & 2.
10. What you eventually learn is to stay the heck out of FP.

And then, of course, the population drops by attrition.
There needs to be a better way.

[Carl Vickers]

Insanity09, on 22 August 2017 - 07:52 PM, said:

Bleh

They are called starter units, CWI as an example. A good chunk of the experienced population would have started out in units like CWI and then moved on once they got experience.

It is up to you to find said starter units and change your own experience.

[Insanity09]

Sigh. Folks are always with the unfounded assumptions.

I was lucky enough to get in with a group of people who did take the time to tutor me up a bit for FW. It was because I was trying scouting on my own hook, not making a complete fool of myself, and I was willing to listen. One step led to another, and finally I got some basic tutelage for (at that time) invasion.
I got lucky, in many ways. Of course, lately the FRR hub seems dead as far as FW is concerned, at least whenever I check it out. But I digress.

I was illustrating the general experience for new(er) players trying FW I see described on forums, and occasionally hear about in chat. And, to some degree, my own initial experiences, and what I've continued to experience in my struggle to get better.

Many people seem to forget that we all started off as greenhorns (newbies?), and some allowances should be made. 9/10 people you try to explain things to will likely not pay attention, but that last one might be worth talking to. But if we don't make an effort to educate, then the chances of spontaneous knowledge generation is pretty low.
As far as the starter units, they don't seem to advertise very well, because back when I was looking actively, I found quite a few dead ends before, as I said, I got lucky.

Edited by Insanity09, 23 August 2017 - 01:21 AM.

[Grus]

JeremiahRose, on 11 August 2017 - 09:39 PM, said:

First off, I haven't been playing for quite a while. I got burned out after the faction play seriously let me down.

The disparity between a PUG and a team is laughable... it's really not worth playing most of the time. That alone is annoying. I'm also an IS player. That also creates a problem, especially when my team is on offense.

I played MANY matches... and have never won against a team with a PUG. My team has always been decimated. Always. About 1/3 of the team just disconnects when they realize what's going on sometimes without even using all of their drops.

This is also because it's really REALLY easy for the defending team to spawncamp... and there's almost no reason not to. It makes total sense... but it shouldn't be allowed. This isn't a "tactical simulation" it's a GAME. Games are supposed to be fun.

If you enjoy shooting down mechs while they are still in the air, before they even have a chance to land... if that's fun for you... great. I want no part of it. I don't play with people who enjoy winning because of a poorly designed system.

So, after being away for a long time, I've come back to see that really... nothing has changed.

The disparity between PUGs and teams are ridiculous... the disparity between clans on defense vs. IS on offense is pretty laughable... the only time I've ever seen it come close is if the clan players are a PUG... AND the IS is a team... but I have only seen that happen once.

I'm sure I'll get trolled for posting this. I'm sure that there are many who LOVE things the way that they are.

I seriously want no part of it, and it's sad. I have 175 unused Premium Days. I've never felt like it was worth using them, either... this game has so much potential, but it constantly lets me down.

Ok, I've vented enough... I'm off to play other games again for a while... I'll probably check in again in another 6+ months... but I'm not going to hold my breath.

One of my teammates suggested that we all just sit outside the walls and leave the gates up. It's not the first time I've seen that suggested... and the response is always "we have to try" but really... the game is already over before it starts at that point. People have given up.

NOT. FUN.

Yeah, I feel ya. If it's a night/day when I jump on and the core FW players in my group are off line then I'll pug it out for the L.P.. If you can,and I do, try to jump on the main faction TS hubs and look for semi full groups to drop with. It's a rarity (but has happened) for a group of pugs to band together on in game VOIP and work well... don't know why but there it is.

If there arnt a lot of people on the main hubs (normally) try the NGNG servers.

[Grus]

Add to that if you're pugging along in FW make the effort to help the team. If you drop aganced a grade A group,try to have some fun, take your woppn' and move on to the next match. DO NOT JUST DISSCONECT! That will get you reported quick.

[JeremiahRose]

LordNothing, on 21 August 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

im usually pro pug in these cases but spawncamp is entirely the fault of the team that gets camped. seems the normal response for a bad push is to cower in terror in the drop zone. if the enemy goes through you and you do not push out to meet them they will have you pinned in your derp zone. and generally if that ever happens you have already lost. the game should end right then and there.

Yes. Yes, it should.

[Peace2U]

I would just like to add one comment:
If it's all about team play and cooperation, then why do the clan mechs/players do so much better than IS? (not my opinion - look at the FP capture threshold bar)
Does this mean that only the Clan mechs/players are using teamplay tactics, and all of the PUG's are running IS?
I don't really think so.
I believe this is the black and white evidence that clan tech is mostly over-performing in comparison to IS tech.
The only redeeming aspect of this unbalanced situation is, when the IS wins one, it is very rewarding (yay - go underdogs - - -)
Look, I know the Clan players will spam the heck out of me for saying this, but, if your only going to play clan because you want to stomp something to death, and if that's what you consider fun - go for it.
Personally I love the close matches when, near the end, a couple of guys are dukeing it out with 20 some odd spectators watching - now that's fun, win or loose - - - -

Peace All

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Peace2U, on 24 August 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

If it's all about team play and cooperation, then why do the clan mechs/players do so much better than IS? (not my opinion - look at the FP capture threshold bar)

Does this mean that only the Clan mechs/players are using teamplay tactics, and all of the PUG's are running IS?
I don't really think so.

I believe this is the black and white evidence that clan tech is mostly over-performing in comparison to IS tech.
The only redeeming aspect of this unbalanced situation is, when the IS wins one, it is very rewarding (yay - go underdogs - - -)

The bar is too much influenced by who plays and how much. It can be some measure, when there is a lot of players playing, like during Tuk event. Even then it's not perfect. But on ordinary times skill differences between sides can have so much influence on which side is winning, that it's not a good measure.

IS mechs take a lot upgrades before they get good. IS mechs can be taken in FP with really poor loadouts. That means on average lower skilled players on IS side have worse mechs than Clan side. It may even have compound effects to encourage average IS players to seek into units or other groups to drop with, as right now it seems rather rude ride to drop solo on IS compared to solo Clan.

[Kaoba]

Peace2U, on 24 August 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

I would just like to add one comment:
If it's all about team play and cooperation, then why do the clan mechs/players do so much better than IS? (not my opinion - look at the FP capture threshold bar)
Does this mean that only the Clan mechs/players are using teamplay tactics, and all of the PUG's are running IS?
I don't really think so.
I believe this is the black and white evidence that clan tech is mostly over-performing in comparison to IS tech.
The only redeeming aspect of this unbalanced situation is, when the IS wins one, it is very rewarding (yay - go underdogs - - -)
Look, I know the Clan players will spam the heck out of me for saying this, but, if your only going to play clan because you want to stomp something to death, and if that's what you consider fun - go for it.
Personally I love the close matches when, near the end, a couple of guys are dukeing it out with 20 some odd spectators watching - now that's fun, win or loose - - - -

Peace All

Meh not really clan being better than IS, is the merc units changing sides, a few weeks ago the IS was winning non stop cause the mercs were there testing new weapons.
A bunch of skilled players working as a team is gonna win on IS or Clan, heck i would i say equal skilled players would have a better chance in IS due to the tonnage advantage

Edited by WayTooSexy, 24 August 2017 - 07:51 PM.

[Insanity09]

Spawncamping is like full sized adults beating up children. The children must deserve it because they fight so weakly, right?

Seriously, if you are winning that thoroughly, is it that tough to at least let people land and marshall away from the spawn?
Truthfully, no, but people choose not to let that happen. Heck, I know certain units that intentionally spawn camp even before they are owning the other team, just to be... impolite?

I will freely allow that in cases where a team it too afraid to even come out, then there is no choice but to move in and mop them up, since waiting for the timer is not reasonable.
However, are teams hiding because they are getting mech parts blown off the instant they show an arm or leg outside the spawn, thus, again, giving them no actual room to come out, or is it because the suckers are lame? In most spawncamping cases, I suspect the former.

[Leone]

Peace2U, on 24 August 2017 - 05:34 PM, said:

I believe this is the black and white evidence that clan tech is mostly over-performing in comparison to IS tech.

Leone, on 22 August 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

"Only you can prevent your dropzone from being overrun."

~Leone.

So, don't look like I'd linked it in this thread, my apologies, but check out the second post. The quality's not the best, but it shows an IS unit goin' up against a Clan unit, both sides trying to maximize their advantages to the fullest. Mistakes are made, on both sides, but by and large, it's a fair fight. The clanners do well when they set the battlefield up for long range skirmishing, and the IS mechs brawl it up.

~Leone.

[Leggin Ho]

Insanity09, on 24 August 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

Spawncamping is like full sized adults beating up children. The children must deserve it because they fight so weakly, right?

Seriously, if you are winning that thoroughly, is it that tough to at least let people land and marshall away from the spawn?
Truthfully, no, but people choose not to let that happen. Heck, I know certain units that intentionally spawn camp even before they are owning the other team, just to be... impolite?

I will freely allow that in cases where a team it too afraid to even come out, then there is no choice but to move in and mop them up, since waiting for the timer is not reasonable.
However, are teams hiding because they are getting mech parts blown off the instant they show an arm or leg outside the spawn, thus, again, giving them no actual room to come out, or is it because the suckers are lame? In most spawncamping cases, I suspect the former.

Once again, if one unit stops 500 meters from there spawn to set up and I'm in the other unit and have to cross 2.5 klicks to even engage them, I'm not turning around and walking back to do it all over again, I've found them and I'll kill them there until they kill my mech because then I've got to walk all the way there or worse, behind their spawn to even find them again.

Either push out and meet somewhere not close to your own spawn, which may just keep the other team from inviting themselves into your spawn and killing you as fast as they can. They have added all kinds of things to make killing folks in their spawn harder, but it's also made it easier for folks to just huddle there and that's what keeps getting them killed in their spawn, because they are pitching a tent and camping in it themselves.

Edited by Leggin Ho, 25 August 2017 - 10:38 AM.

[Pat Kell]

Insanity09, on 24 August 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

Spawncamping is like full sized adults beating up children. The children must deserve it because they fight so weakly, right?

That's just ridiculous...Children have no real power in those situations and have to resort to the good will of other adults to help them. The people playing this game are on equal playing fields from the start (relatively speaking) but it's the choices that are made both prior to the match and after the match has started that is the real issue. One thing that does seem similar is that like children, some of the "adults" in here seem to be looking to the "good will" of other adults to solve their own problems. Sad thing is, they (unlike children) actually have the power to change this situation but just chose not too.

[MischiefSC]

Pat Kell, on 25 August 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

That's just ridiculous...Children have no real power in those situations and have to resort to the good will of other adults to help them. The people playing this game are on equal playing fields from the start (relatively speaking) but it's the choices that are made both prior to the match and after the match has started that is the real issue. One thing that does seem similar is that like children, some of the "adults" in here seem to be looking to the "good will" of other adults to solve their own problems. Sad thing is, they (unlike children) actually have the power to change this situation but just chose not too.

Hence my contempt for the idea of the other team 'holding back' in a match.

I'm not 6. I'm an adult and I'm responsible for myself. There's nothing the other team can do that I can't do. I can not imagine anything more offensive than in a computer game like this the other side 'taking it easy' on me so I can pretend that I'm actually doing okay. If I want to just pretend I'm doing good at something instead of putting the effort into doing good at something I could play any one of a million single player games, turn god mode and infinite ammo on and pretend I'm winning because I'm just so amazing.

I do my best, the other side does their best, the one who played the hardest and put the most effort in wins, you shake hands across the net and move on to the next match a bit wiser and more experienced.

[Commander A9]

When you click "Fight Now," you give your consent to participating in a battle against another opponent. You have no power to determine who that opponent is, and you have no means of selecting who you fight, and that's the whole point of multiplayer gaming.

If it were otherwise, then the 'good teams' would never find anyone who wanted to play against them.

You should not expect any quarter or leniency, regardless of who you fight, especially if you request it.

When you click "Fight Now," you assume the risk and all liability for the outcome of the engagement.

...we just got out of a match where the opposition folded, then begged us to "take pity" on them and let them win...and as we explained in mid-mission, we collectively refused to disrespect the opposition by giving them less than our best.

You prefer that we deliberately throw matches?

I'm with Mischief on this one: when I drop against you, you will get me at my best, each and every time. And if I screw up, that's my fault-not yours.

Edited by Commander A9, 25 August 2017 - 07:29 PM.

[Insanity09]

If any team is getting roflstomped back to their spawn there is an obviously major power/skill differential.
Thus the child vs adult analogy, while hyperbole, is not without merit, though I can understand why it would offend some people's sensibilities. I did like the comment about the children needing help from other adults, that actually fits nicely into the analogy, thanks.

Perhaps a college sports team versus professional would be acceptable to people? Both sets of adults, but again, a clear power/skill advantage on the pro side. I would still expect the pros to completely destroy the college team.

I have not heard anyone say you should not play your best. I certainly didn't say that. I never said you should throw matches, nor did I read anybody else say or hint that.
However, there is a difference between playing your best, and playing in such a way that the opponents are injured or punished simply for playing. Sometimes that's called sportsmanship.

In every spawn-camp game I have seen the side killing the enemies in their spawn was winning so overwhelmingly that their victory could not be threatened or questioned (EVIL games excepted). Think about it.
The first wave is always organized on both sides (at least as much as a team is able), because each side has more than enough time to set up before the engagement starts. If in the first (or second) wave one team so totally owns the other that they can push all the way to the enemy spawn, essentially unopposed (or, not effectively opposed), the chances of the dominating team losing in the end is vanishingly small.
And yet, we are to believe that in such a case merely allowing an already mostly crushed team to leave their spawn before getting shot will somehow pose a threat? It sounds like there is some other motivation happening here, because that doesn't seem correct. Hmm.

One could even make the very strong case that by spawn-camping the opposing side, you are not playing your best, you are shooting fish in a barrel, an easy task by anyone's estimation. Hmm.

So, you are free to believe as you wish, as am I.
You are free to misinterpret what I type, I certainly can't stop you.
I will happily read what you type, and try to understand the motivations behind what you say, especially when your stated motivations and the behaviors they support don't quite match up.
I will also continue to advocate for a better play experience for everyone.

(for example, if you really want to play your best, then you need to be challenged. I'd bet cash money that a pro-football player does not play his best when called upon to be part of the family game at a reunion picnic. Why? Not a challenge. Does he play to lose, barring extreme circumstances? Probably not.)

[Leggin Ho]

And once again, until you change the behavior of teams that stop jut outside thier spawn during the first wave, you will continue to see teams push all the way across the map unopposed and kill them where they are, outside their spawn and then in their spawn unless they push us out.