209 replies to this topic

[Carl Vickers]

naterist, on 29 August 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

its wouldnt even be about that if they didnt spend all their effort trying to kill any attempts to get improvements implanted in the game. they dont only make it ******, they go out of their way to make sure that guys suggesting improvements and seeking a better way get harrassed off the forums, then once all the disenters are gone they make sure to stand up and do a head count and claim theyre in the majority. lol. they do it in the game and they do it in the forums.

you cant win until you have a place were you can have a legit debate. that place sure as **** aint here.

Yet you are still here trying to get a kiddies pool setup. Remind us all again how your vote for split queues went last time?

If the ideas that came out were feasible then im sure people would say yes, the vast majority of ideas that come out of your mouth and a few others are pie in the sky and will not happen, PGI is not going to spend the time completely redeveloping FP.

It takes everyone time to 'git gud' at this game, some longer than others. Pat, being the guy he is wouldnt say he is the best pilot out there but I know he pulls good numbers consistently, but heres the secret, ill be willing to bet money when he first started out, just like myself and everyone else, he was a scrub potato. Through long hours of practice and many many matches played, he has attained a really good level of play.

Did he sit back and complain on the forums, nope, he put the effort in, got farmed, just like the rest of us by units like the original 228s ect and he got better at the game.

Its not magic, it was hard work and more importantly, time. If you think this is a game you can just join in and be the best pilot after playing a few matches, then u are dreaming and id be thinking that you are more than likely going to have issues in real life as well.

This has all been pointed out soo many times and it just doesnt seem to sink into the heads of the trophies for participation generation.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 29 August 2017 - 10:09 PM.

[naterist]

Carl Vickers, on 29 August 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

Yet you are still here trying to get a kiddies pool setup. Remind us all again how your vote for split queues went last time?

If the ideas that came out were feasible then im sure people would say yes, the vast majority of ideas that come out of your mouth and a few others are pie in the sky and will not happen, PGI is not going to spend the time completely redeveloping FP.

It takes everyone time to 'git gud' at this game, some longer than others. Pat, being the guy he is wouldnt say he is the best pilot out there but I know he pulls good numbers consistently, but heres the secret, ill be willing to bet money when he first started out, just like myself and everyone else, he was a scrub potato. Through long hours of practice and many many matches played, he has attained a really good level of play.

Did he sit back and complain on the forums, nope, he put the effort in, got farmed, just like the rest of us by units like the original 228s ect and he got better at the game.

Its not magic, it was hard work and more importantly, time. If you think this is a game you can just join in and be the best, then u are dreaming and id be thinking that you are more than likely going to have issues in real life as well.

This has all been pointed out soo many times and it just doesnt seem to sink into the heads of the trophies for participation generation.

i ******* love how people use that arguement on me, like if i join a unit ill suddenly come around.

i started a freaking unit. we were created in december, by tukkayid we had taken 3rd place in the frr. we have a positive w/l ratio. we routinely crush the starter units, and the only people who actually routinely stomp us are div a teams when they hop in que, and kcom, and kcom stomps everyone. this is not me be a littlebitch about getting beat, im the guy who gets bitched at for beating people. i went through the grinder, got good, i have a team thats "gotten gud" as youd so rudely put it, and god damn it in the past few weeks heve kept kcom less than a wave ahead of us.

this isnt about any of that, so stop assuming that of me, or anyone who disagrees with you,k it does absolutely nothing to further the conversation! i pay close attention to these ques. i see the trends, ive heard the opinions of people who refuse to play faction play, ive discussed this with people who love faction play. ive done my best to see every single angle of this arguement, and regardless of wether pgi will do it or not, i have come to my conclusions. you trolls are just getting ******* stupid since zmom left you.

[Carl Vickers]

naterist, on 29 August 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

i ******* love how people use that arguement on me, like if i join a unit ill suddenly come around.

i started a freaking unit. we were created in december, by tukkayid we had taken 3rd place in the frr. we have a positive w/l ratio. we routinely crush the starter units, and the only people who actually routinely stomp us are div a teams when they hop in que, and kcom, and kcom stomps everyone. this is not me be a littlebitch about getting beat, im the guy who gets bitched at for beating people. i went through the grinder, got good, i have a team thats "gotten gud" as youd so rudely put it, and god damn it in the past few weeks heve kept kcom less than a wave ahead of us.

this isnt about any of that, so stop assuming that of me, or anyone who disagrees with you,k it does absolutely nothing to further the conversation! i pay close attention to these ques. i see the trends, ive heard the opinions of people who refuse to play faction play, ive discussed this with people who love faction play. ive done my best to see every single angle of this arguement, and regardless of wether pgi will do it or not, i have come to my conclusions. you trolls are just getting ******* stupid since zmom left you.

Well I got home from work and had a look at your stats, your win loss is not too bad, your KMDD's is around 3 per match, you want to be doing a minimum of 4 and your kill death is slightly above average.

Take a look at the top players stats and you see a big difference. At the moment, you are very middle of the road.

This is exactly what its about, you keep harping on in other posts about your split queues idea and how it would save FP, it wont, only a complete redesign from top to bottom would really save FP and that just isnt going to happen.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 30 August 2017 - 02:39 AM.

[Leggin Ho]

Insanity09, on 29 August 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

I would truly love to see what changes, if any, the victory bonus would make in the player behavior if it got implemented.

naterist, on 29 August 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

its wouldnt even be about that if they didnt spend all their effort trying to kill any attempts to get improvements implanted in the game. they dont only make it ******, they go out of their way to make sure that guys suggesting improvements and seeking a better way get harrassed off the forums, then once all the disenters are gone they make sure to stand up and do a head count and claim theyre in the majority. lol. they do it in the game and they do it in the forums.

you cant win until you have a place were you can have a legit debate. that place sure as **** aint here.

If they ever make it worthwhile to win by objectives and not killing the folks on the other team then come ask us to stop, as the game is set up right now the rewards are for killing mechs, not gen's and guns.

Naterist you have put some ok ideas out there like the payout system, however you have also asked for things that could and would be exploited by folks so they could keep from playing against certain players or teams when they get matched to them, now not saying it would happen all the time, but as I've pointed out and also had to deal with when I ran a PL league in MW4 there are some that would abuse it in a heartbeat if there is not penalty in place to make it a very hard decision to just quit or disco. The idea's are a good thing, but just don't jump too far one way or the other and ignore both sides view when it comes to forcing players to play a certain way to make what you think some folks want without also giving them a reason to see your side of it with rewards (like the objective payout) but if folks que up they should either play who they get ot pay a steep price for quitting while the other teams gets paid as if the match did happen.

[50 50]

Would it make a difference to the disconnects if we didn't see who the opposition team was?
Don't see it as adding anything anyway so why have it?

[Doctor Dinosaur]

There, I fixed the interface.

Best regards
Doc

[F A L L 3 N]

To sum up everything that is being said here:

From “Pugs” point of view:

“We get spawn killed” – 4 main points arise here:

1) “Oh, no, we are fighting premades” – “Pugs” have already given up and are trying to preserve themselves or dc;

2) “We grouped up in the middle of a map and got rolled 12-0 or 12-1” – this is not the argument “Pugs” should be making against teams. This is purely due to your lack of skills (poor aiming, lack of torso twisting), understanding the game mechanics (like positioning, trading, map awareness, etc) and terrible builds (lurms, machine guns, “fun builds”). I pug alone (in Clans and IS) vs other pugs and premades and I happen to win 2/3 of games.

Here are 2 perfect examples from my personal experience (playing for Clans and for IS).

Clans:

I dropped with a very passive team (vs mostly pugs) on Crimson Straight and I saw a mech popping over the “broken back mountin”. I ran to engage it. The enemy team set up a firing line on the other side and my team was shouting at me to disengage and pull back fearing a push. I hold my ground and engaged an LRM awesome (that guy maxed out everything on that mech and I was getting lurmed even with ecm and partial radar derp). I was aiming for his side torso. The guy was not moving away to hide and didn’t torso twist. I was also surprised to find out he was running an XL engine. I killed him fairly quickly (I was still traiding alone vs an enemy team). Then I engaged a Thunderbolt and stripped its side torso and LPLs. The first guy I killed returned in another “Lurm” mech Archer. He went to the exactly same spot and what do you know, he was running another XL (face palm moment. After his 2^nd death he was hiding in the drop zone for the rest of the game). Only when I killed 3 mechs my team realised that they were late to a party. Conclusion: Fun (terrible and not optimised builds for FP), poor personal skills and terrible positioning lost pugs the game. NOT PREMADES.

IS:

I was fighting (pocking around a corner to avoid most of lurm damage) vs a lurm 40 timber with 4 ERMLs in a heavy. With 2 carefully placed shots Timber lost his side torso. The Timber pilot was shouting: “F*cking OP IS BS”. Once again, it was not the tech that was the decising factor but the lack of personal skills and poor builds. FUN BUILDS ARE ONLY FOR QP. IF YOU WANT TO WIN OR DON’T WANT TO BE SPAWN KILLED, THEY HAVE NO PLACE IN FP.

3) “Let’s play conservative and stay close to drop ships so that we can re-inforce more quickly”.

In my early days, I thought passivity was the best way to win (you stay back and try to put some damage at an enemy). However, I quicky realised that aggression is the best offense/defense tool you have (that is not to say running like crazy at the enemy). Being close to the front allows you to push if an opportunity presents itself or retreat back if need be. Being at the front allows you to share armor and extend fighting meaning your team mates have more time to shoot back. In a team game, you have to be a team player even as a pug.

4) “Tech is OP”

I play on both sides and yes Clan tech is a bit friendlier to new players (Clan XL, higher speed, better colling). However, there is very little difference once you fully skill the mechs. In fact IS has a slight edge over Clan tech in the hands of a skilled player. Just way too much armor to go through.

So what do we have if you want to be a more successful pug or a lord of pugs).

• By dropping into FP, you accept that you will be playing vs premades. 8 out of 10 times they will be running into optimised builds (either snipers or brawlers). Forget about “fun” builds (mostly lurms) and match their builds. High alpha builds with little face time towards the enemy (the longer you expose yourself to an enemy the more damage your are likely to take”. 50% of times the battle is lost in the mech bay.
  
• Try to be more aggressive. How much aggressive, well, it is up to you to learn (understanding comes with experience). Keep the enemy guissing. Are you going to trade or to push. They will think twice whether to push you or not.
  
• When you die, regroup in a place that is safe enough from all the fighting and close enough to pull back if necessary. With time, you will learn when to re-inforce and when to stay back. For instance, I can partially reinforce on some occasions. Do a few alphas and retreat safely.
  
• Make sure you have right mechs for right maps.If you bring lurms or brawlers on a sniping map there is nohing even to discuss here.
  
• I cannot emphasise this enough, even to veterans, learn to look at your mini map every 10 secs or so. If you are out of position you are probably dead.
  
• Identify stronger pug players and shadow them. Learn what they do and what mechs they bring. Shoot at the same targets as they do.

Finally, stop crying. You only cry because you don’t want to put effort into getting better. All your excuses are baseless. I was a pug and I went through the same things as you do. Don’t give me stupid excuses. Now I score between 3 and 4k damage in every game. Make shanges to your builds and strategies every game and see what works and what doesn’t. It can take 50, 100 or even 200 games. People that are good, played over 500 games, some even over several thousands.

IF YOU DON’T WANT TO FOLLOW ANY OF THESE STEPS, GO BACK TO QP OR LEAVE THIS GAME FOR GOOD. BUT FFS, STOP COMPLAINING AND BLAIME EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING OTHER THAN YOURSELF!!! How do you think good pilots got to where they are. There is a lot of complexity to this game.

Here is also a quick guide to damage level that you should strive for:

Relatevily new player:

300 per mech.

Average player:

400 to 500 dmg per mech.

My personal goal:

1000 per mech.

This post is not meant to troll or offend anyone. However, I see a lot of good solo players who score over 3000 damage and help to win matches. If they can do well solo and you can't then the problem is with you. Clear and simple. The only question you need to ask yourself is how to get better.

Edited by F A L L 3 N, 30 August 2017 - 05:29 AM.

[MischiefSC]

50 50, on 29 August 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

Just to point out that in quick play you can be beaten down but you never get spawn camped.

Unfortunately at this point in the development of FP I don't see us getting a mode that allows teams to push control points in a single battle, advance the control of territory, have selectable spawn points and be able to fall back (move forward) to another base etc. Despite how awesome that might be, the changes to mode are significant and also require new maps.

The simple truth of it is that people will happily drop in quick play again and again even if they get rolled one match because they can simply shrug their shoulders, pick a mech and drop into the next match fresh and have at least a chance to get into position and fight.
The whole aspect of grief that comes along with spawn camping is that if a team or group of players is overwhelmed to the point that they do get caught in their drop zones, they have very little chance to do anything about it. It's where you lose a couple of mechs, or more, helplessly that drive people bonkers. Combine that with the fact that we might wait an hour just to get a match and you then get smashed in 5 min..... that's where it's really frustrating and I can certainly understand why people never come back. Overall, you get a better experience and really importantly, more game time in quick play.

So, if we can't have the awesomeness of fighting over territory, capturing forward bases to spawn from all in a single battle that we can enjoy for as long as possible, then we should look at other options that give us that feeling of being in a galactic struggle and take advantage of the way the core game is played out.
That means putting functionality around (outside of) what is essentially the quick play + siege + scouting modes so we can take all of those modes and any new developments that might come along and port them into a Faction Play framework.
Which is why I suggest using the Drop Decks differently and treating the modes as missions to make it a campaign.
It eliminates spawn camping.
Any future development of modes and maps automatically benefits FP.
And we create greater appeal for FP because we have depth surrounding the battles.

If there were reaspawns in QP there would be spawncamping most matches.

Because it's poor strategy choices that lead to it and poor strategic choices are the hallmark of QP.

I absolutely understand the frustration. With the event and leaderboards going on people in QP are playing like absolute idiots. I usually run a 1.5 or better win/loss in QP. Not that I hero-carrt but I do okay helping drive a win. Usually that's by knowing when to bite the bullet, push in and turn the enemy team to give my team an opening. Usually they take it - like I said, I win about 75% of QP matches.

Not the last 2 days though. People playing like absolute cowards. Lost 9 games, 1 win. 8 losses, 1 win. I'm putting up 800+ 2-4 kills and still losing. Turning half the enemy team and pinning them a full grid away for 60-90 seconds - while my teammates, sitting at 11 v 6, won't push or do anything but shuffle to see who can be most in the back.

However.

The reality is that for this situation I'm the one that needs to change. I need to switch to a light or a HLL/cerml HBR and play to what the people trying to feast/famine their way to the leaderboard are playing like. It is both stupid and arrogant for me to want everyone else to change because me doing what's worked for me before isn't working right now.

Everyone gets rolled sometimes. It is what it is, it's a PvP game. Someone wins, someone loses every match. If we want reaspawns we will have spawn camps.

@naterist;

I spent years as a Davion loyalist. You're barking up the wrong tree. That KCom was mercs (and is now loyalist to farm a new crop of loyalist LP) is irrelevant to me. I really enjoy IS mechs nut most of KCom limes Clan mechs so we stay Clan a lot. Sure, we like faster drops than waiting and we like playing against good teams -


However you've got this impression that I (we?) have some sort of obligation, because we put a lot of effort I to winning and as such are somehow responsible for how everyone else *feels* about the game? I'm supposed to take everyone's emotional temperature and put in additional effort to make sure they're happy and healthy with the minimal effort they're putting in?

Unless someone has a birth certificate or DNA test showing that I'm their actual daddy I'm going to go ahead and pass on me being responsible for the consequences of their choices. I am not and will not be held responsible for how someone else feels about the consequences of their choices innhow they play the game. If PGI can't make FW compelling enough to last I wish I could say I was surprised. Originally it was 90% units. Pug teams were super rare - that's how it was supposed to be. However no point to being loyalist, no depth, no purpose, etc. Units left. Saying that everyone who's still playing who's any good needs to play with kid gloves on, carefully shuffle around and coordinate with each other so we don't hurt the feelings of the dedicated snowflakes isn't going to fix anything.

Not sure where you get the idea that whoever is winning or putting the most effort I to the game is obligated to carry those who are not. I get you want to pretend that the low population is "our fault" for not working hard enough to cater to other players but that is both absurd and ****ing insane. I play the game. Like everyone else who plays the game. I have as much responsibility to change how I play to suit them as they do to suit me. When they're all grouping up, taking good mechs and following calls in the drop maybe I'll look at player-made rules of engagement.

However as that's never going to happen how about we all accept responsibility for our own actions and not try to say the winner is responsible for the fun of the loser?

[Barkem Squirrel]

I have had some just terrible matches in FW in PUGs. Then there are the others where how the hell did we win as PUGs against a 12 man team.

The best way to gauge how well the team did is how much people talk even with the Voip in game for PUGs. Then with teams certain people calling and others informing.

As for people going AFK, I have not seen that too much and normally it is someone being dropped by the client as a disconnect outside of their control. I have that problem for a while. Still I have been on winning teams with 10 v 12 from two disconnects.

As for fun, beating out the timer, adding the different game modes into FW has helped, but I miss some of the FW maps.

[Pat Kell]

I am arguing with a guy named Insanity....I think I named myself wrong.

[Lovas]

Pat Kell, on 30 August 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

I am arguing with a guy named Insanity....I think I named myself wrong.

Pat Kell, on 29 August 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

That's my fault.

[Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf]

So, a pug is complaining about being seal clubbed and some unit players are sharing advise on how to git gud. Can't say, I haven't read this tale before...

And I still think it's dead wrong.

How would honing his skills actually help the pug in FP? Would it make him win?

The pug in general wants to win just as much as any other player. Following the advise given in this thread would make him a better pug (I totally agree with that), but it would not make him win the game!

Even if there are 12 pugs with an individual skill level comparable to the premade team, they will still not stand a chance, because they can't compensate for the superior communication (and tactics and premade mechbuilds).

In case the average pugs achieves a level of skill that is significantly above the unit member to make up for that, then we would have even matches...

But as this is clearly not realistic, better pug quality will only lead to a greater level of fun on the premade side! (as the enemy now puts up a bit of a fight instead of being just potatos, without bringing the team into too much trouble).

That is why this whole "how to get good in FP"-thread looks like a pretty selfish thing from my point of view.

In my opinion, the gamemode is just badly designed. Pug vs. premade should not happen. Period.

A more honest advise from the premade side would actually be: "Don't come here. You may not have fun here. It is unfair."

[MischiefSC]

Pugs beat premades all the time.

Also most unit members pug sometimes, or drop in 2 and 3man groups.

And still win.

Getting good at FW makes you win more. It's that simple. Yes, a critical skill absolutely is communication and coordination but honestly KCom (as an example) really doesn't call a lot in a drop. We all know where to go and what to do. Now, true. We learned that from communicating with other players - other people.

However we could have a completely silent match and it would play pretty much the same. The only important stuff is stuff pugs call out like 'they flanked our right' or 'push now'.

The difference is that people who actually respond to that, have the situational awareness to be conscious of it and who bring good mechs and make good positioning choices, are the ones who win. They also, by dint of being comfortable putting in the bare minimum possible effort, tend to also join units or at least group up.

It's a self-defeating cycle. Someone who doesn't want to put in the bare minimum effort to even have a chance is also unwilling to put the effort into grouping up. So they bring bad builds, make poor choices in the mechlab and the match. They ignore the teamwork facet of the match and often have really strange views of what grouping up and playing in a unit is like.

You probably hear more talking during a QP match than in most FW matches in KCom TS.

The only real difference is putting in the effort to communicate, be situationally aware, bring good mechs and learn what is and is not good positioning.

Anyone can learn that and do well. Usually though when someone does learn that and learns to do well they prefer to play with other people willing to put in the same effort and do equally as well and, as such, tend to stop pugging and start grouping up.

Originally FW was almost all units. Pure pug teams were virtually non-existent. However it didn't match what PGI had originally sold and being a loyalist was absolute crap, so most left. Many of the pugs have been playing in FW for as long as the people in units - just they're still taking the same mechs and making the same bad choices and still losing all the time and still saying it's everyone elses fault. Nothing is going to help those people.

When someone does have questions and actually wants to get better then yeah. We all want to help them. Why wouldn't we? We want better people in the game. Both to play with and against. Nothing wrong with that.

[Lovas]

Saint Atlas and the Commando Elf, on 30 August 2017 - 05:01 PM, said:

We do an exercise in BCMC. We'll go out in 2's and 3's, and see how many pug teams we can help win. We don't always win, but when we do carry the others to victory we are setting an example for others to emulate. It doesn't take 12 folks to win a match...just takes a few, doing their best to bring the others along.

Stop bringing crap mechs. Stop balling up. Learn to trade and you will be victorious more than not.

[50 50]

MischiefSC, on 30 August 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

If there were reaspawns in QP there would be spawncamping most matches.

And you could imagine the threads that would be going on, repeatedly, about it.
Mind you, Faction Play at this point is exactly QP with respawns.

I question if that is a good thing or if we should be using the drop decks differently.

[Carl Vickers]

50 50, on 30 August 2017 - 06:27 PM, said:

And you could imagine the threads that would be going on, repeatedly, about it.
Mind you, Faction Play at this point is exactly QP with respawns.

I question if that is a good thing or if we should be using the drop decks differently.

Carl Vickers, on 29 August 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

only a complete redesign from top to bottom would really save FP and that just isnt going to happen.

I dont like quoting myself, kind of feels like speaking in the 3rd person but has to be said again.

[Pat Kell]

Lovas, on 30 August 2017 - 03:59 PM, said:

How dare you quote me to make me look bad!

[Lovas]

Pat Kell, on 30 August 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

How dare you quote me to make me look bad!

Pat Kell, on 29 August 2017 - 06:42 PM, said:

That's my fault.

[Carl Vickers]

Oh boy, this could go on for a while Pat.

[Lovas]

Carl Vickers, on 30 August 2017 - 07:47 PM, said:

Oh boy, this could go on for a while Pat.

At least until the hangover kicks in.

Say something more Pat....please!!!

I mean this thread is silly now. Didn't we JUST have a 30 page thread about this same stuff from Jun-Jul before it got closed?

Edited by Lovas, 30 August 2017 - 07:59 PM.