209 replies to this topic

[naterist]

Not to say i told you so, but... ya, i called this on page 5 of this thread.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Commander A9, on 06 September 2017 - 06:08 PM, said:

Want to discuss unpopular topics?

We just waited for 10-15 minutes for a damn ghost drop.

We're now searching for a second ghost drop.

An IS pilot reports he's still searching too...

So that means 24 people, in the entirety of this game, are getting Faction Warfare matches right now...and we're a damn 12-man!

PGI, you have got to get more people up in here...otherwise this mode really will go belly-up...

Or better yet, since we've got Tukayyid, Tharkad, Luthien, and now Terra, just call it Clan Victory Season 1 and reset the damn map like you always do. XD

We also had a couple of matches with a couple minutes of searching tonight IS-side (vs. only instadrops during the event).....we were only dropping a 3-5 man...and we got only solos to fill out the rest of the drop...took a few minutes

[Carl Vickers]

naterist, on 06 September 2017 - 09:10 PM, said:

Not to say i told you so, but... ya, i called this on page 5 of this thread.

I told you that PGI will not spend lots of time and effort in redoing FP so nothing is really going to change. Look back at the history of FP. The has been no major redevelopments, just little fixes/consolidations. Unless they change the game engine this stuff aint going to change.

[General Solo]

PGI should just ditch the call to arms button and see how that goes

[Fuerchtenichts]

Well, I am a loyalist but looking at the actual merc contract gratifications I don't see an argument for a merc unit to switch to IS.

Just because this wasn't adapted when changing to the one bucket system.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

But do the better teams really need those cbills? Don't they play for MC and just general pugfarming experience?

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

Outside of "cohesion" practice there is no reason for a big team to actively pugstomp, imo.
It breeds a bad atmosphere in the game and if they wanted proper practice they could go to a competitors TS and ask for a proper match up.
Any regularly active veteran of this game has very little use for cbill at this point in the games history.

Blaming the individual player for not "grouping up on TS or discord" is not a solution or a valid response either, there are many reasons people would casually play a game on their own and not want to bother with listening to 3 different accents yelling immature crap at each other, forcing everyone into a "git gud or go home" situation is unhealthy for the player base as a whole.

If you for whatever reason are scared of showing compassion to the situation of others you might want to work on that.

[MischiefSC]

So teams just hit the launch button and play the match that gets created.

Just like everyone else.

So if you group up before you drop and put more effort into winning you are obligated to take the emotional temperature of the other team and try to figure out a way to win without winning too much? Can we get an exact breakdown on just how much better than casual pugs you have to be in order to have the obligation of adjusting how you play the game to make the other side feel good about themselves? Maybe have a W/L cutoff? Do I have to tell them they're handsome and brave and smart and that they're a winner no matter what? I mean if I'm going to be required to lie and adjust my gameplay because they don't want to put in the same effort I do but still want to win just as much do I have to cater to all their other insecurities?

It's not 'practice' any more than it's practice when you're pugging. Just because you're on TS or get into a group before you drop doesn't mean you're in training for a league. The sheer absurdity of this misconception is a big part of the problem.

People just play the game because it's a game. We already have QP for casual pugging. QP is still there - it hasn't been removed. It's always been there. If people want respawns in QP they need to ask PGI for that. I know I'm greatly in favor of it. All the same stuff that FW has for content. Maps, modes, etc should be available in every game channel.

Different levels of effort carry different rewards. If you play the significantly harder environment of FW, you can earn mech bays, etc. It has higher rewards because the effort required to succeed in FW is higher than QP. If you want the LP rewards then you earn them by playing in FW where the effort required to do really well is higher.

If you put in way more effort than that and play in league play you get big cash prizes. See how that works? At what point is anyone with even a tiny shred of self-respect saying that league play and MWOWC needs to split to ensure that the people who group up for some semi-casual play in FW have the same odds of winning MWOWC as the top tier comp teams? Do you see those whine threads? Anywhere? I'm not going to be on a team that wins MWOWC and gets big cash prizes because I'm not willing to put in that level of effort. Props to the tiny, tiny sliver of the game that is. They are putting more effort in and deserve to reap the rewards of it.

FW is the little slice of the game pointed at coordinated gameplay for groups. That PGI has either flat out never implemented the stuff they promised originally to make it compelling to teams or then later removed the stuff that was still compelling to teams is another big problem - just like the failure to include the color-blind changes, Inverse Kinematics, it's a long list of things PGI has promised but not delivered.

However saying that some people just don't want to do anything but casual pug and play poorly with bad mechs but still win against people who play well with good mechs so every single facet of the game, every single one, has to get dumbed down until the people putting in the least effort still get the most rewards is magical thinking at its finest.

[multisoul]

the recruits that short circuit their mechs due to body fluid loss do not read this forums, or they would not be recruits anymore
so instead try to get into a group through ts or even in game chat and LFG

Edited by multisoul, 11 September 2017 - 10:10 AM.

[Kill Chain]

Teer Kerensky, on 07 September 2017 - 06:29 AM, said:

But do the better teams really need those cbills? Don't they play for MC and just general pugfarming experience?

Supposedly some clan unit members can't go IS because they don't have an IS drop deck or some such excuse that I don't buy for a second..unless all of those people are new to the game they probably have plenty of C-Bills. I'm not rich but I at least have 1 Clan and 1 IS deck.

[Insanity09]

After some thought, I could support JeremiahRose's suggestion that a push into the enemy spawn (with sufficient tonnage/numbers) cause the match to end with a win for the side pushing into the camp.

However, there would be a few necessary changes/comment.

Every spawn would need to have multiple exits that could not be directly observed by a single overwatch point. In other words, if you can fire on one of the exit points, you cannot see or fire on one of the other ones. Further, the travel time between firing points would need to be on the order of a minute or so. (actually, this might be a really good idea, regardless)

Any team which decides to hide inside their spawn should be killed after a certain time period. @ 1 minute, a warning that 'the big guns' will be able to fire in 2 minutes, at 3 minutes (1+2), anyone hiding in the spawn gets nuked.

A win via spawn-push should NOT count for the victory bonus I suggested above unless the objective for the pushing side is simply killing the enemy. (so, attacker on siege would NOT get the bonus, the match would simply end, etc.)


Now, since many folks seem to (intentionally?) misunderstand the concept of sportsmanship, I'm sure these comments too will be to no avail.

Spawn camping is like an American football team running into the opposing team's locker room and tackling people before they can even get into their gear. They're just making the game easier by preventing their opponents from getting into the game, right?

There is a concept of allowing people to play the game, not use the obviously flawed mechanics of the game against them. What? This game has very inflexible spawn points, you are absolutely forced to use the drop zones already set up, even if there is a deadly force of enemies at that point and you will die instantly or nearly so. In reality, no force would land in such a location if there were a choice in the matter. Either the entire effort would be called off (surrender) or a different LZ would be selected/used.

Pick one: you want a challenging game (no spawn camping) OR you want an easy win (camping allowed).
Be honest.

[Pat Kell]

Just because someone doesn't agree with your concept of sportsmanship doesn't mean that that they are wrong. They just disagree with you. And no, your analogy is ridiculous and exaggerated just like your previous ones. Running into the locker room of the enemy team would be like logging onto the enemy teams accounts and stripping their mechs to the bare bone so that they are ineligible to drop. What you meant to say, I think, is that spawn camping is like ending a football game with the score being 79-3 because you brought in a professional football team and matched them up against a high school team. I could get behind that analogy because it at least makes sense.

[Insanity09]

Odd, since that is almost exactly one of the analogies I made before, pro vs college.

And no, as earlier, the analogy stands, because shooting people before they can even move or fire back is incredibly close to walloping people in the locker room before they are geared up. Your attempted correction is not valid.

For the record, my definition of sportsmanship includes winning (or losing) gracefully, respect for an opponent, and not taking unfair advantages or cheating.

I'd advise you to pull out your dictionary on that one, though doubtless you will say I am complaining (which lacks sportsmanship).
I will suggest that one must point out flaws, shortcomings, or errors in order to see them corrected &/or improved, and that is different from complaining. (at times, the presentation can lean to complaining, but the act itself is not, by definition, complaining)

True, simply disagreeing with me (or me with someone else) does not make one wrong.
Using words incorrectly, intentionally or otherwise, failing to understand, that can make one wrong.

[Grus]

Pat Kell, on 12 September 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

Just because someone doesn't agree with your concept of sportsmanship doesn't mean that that they are wrong. They just disagree with you. And no, your analogy is ridiculous and exaggerated just like your previous ones. Running into the locker room of the enemy team would be like logging onto the enemy teams accounts and stripping their mechs to the bare bone so that they are ineligible to drop. What you meant to say, I think, is that spawn camping is like ending a football game with the score being 79-3 because you brought in a professional football team and matched them up against a high school team. I could get behind that analogy because it at least makes sense.

but we arnt a sport, this is a game.. *sees Patrica's collection of left legs behind him.*

Edit: cellphone autocorrect

Edited by Grus, 12 September 2017 - 04:07 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Spawn camping happens regardless of teams or pugs or whatever. It's a product of having respawns. Also your idea of sportsmanship being that whoever is winning in a game or match is somehow bullying whoever is losing unless they pull back the moment they start to win so that the loser gets a chance to screw up their courage or whatever you think needs to happen is absolutely absurd and has no basis in any actual sports. You also have the most contemptuous view of people in this game I think I've ever seen.

The people playing this game are not all little children. They're (hopefully) not a bunch of six year olds who have no real concept of actions and consequences and personal accountability and the nature of competition. The people winning are not anything, vaguely, like pro sports teams. This isn't a profession. It's a game. The actual difference between good teams and people playing terribly and getting farmed out is less effort, by far, than anyone in this thread has spent writing posts. People have a 'right' to make poor choices in a game. They do not have a 'right' to require everyone else to adjust to those poor choices so that the person making them doesn't have to deal with the consequences. That's not sportsmanship, it's contempt.

Saying I'm required to waste a total of 12 minutes over 4 drops if a team wants to troll and hide (which happens more than it should) is stupid. Again, I'm just someone playing the game like everyone else. My time is worth no more or less than anyone elses. They don't have to change to coddle me, I don't have to change to coddle them. We both just play and the one who puts the most effort in wins the match. Game over, queue up, drop again.

That's the game. That's the point of the game. It's a 12 v 12 team v 12 PvP environment. If someone doesn't want to drop against teams we have QP. If we want respawns in QP then ask for respawns in QP. Saying that FW, which is not QP for a reason and is the team based part of the game needs to act like it's QP so people who want to play like it's QP but want the rewards for FW can do so and get protected from the inevitable failure that creates is an idea so absurd it's hard to approach without getting insulting.

On the plus side there's no way any of this sort of thing is going to happen - it would be way more work than just putting respawn maps/modes in QP, which seems to be what some people actually want.

[Grus]

MischiefSC, on 12 September 2017 - 04:17 PM, said:

Spawn camping happens regardless of teams or pugs or whatever. It's a product of having respawns. Also your idea of sportsmanship being that whoever is winning in a game or match is somehow bullying whoever is losing unless they pull back the moment they start to win so that the loser gets a chance to screw up their courage or whatever you think needs to happen is absolutely absurd and has no basis in any actual sports. You also have the most contemptuous view of people in this game I think I've ever seen.

The people playing this game are not all little children. They're (hopefully) not a bunch of six year olds who have no real concept of actions and consequences and personal accountability and the nature of competition. The people winning are not anything, vaguely, like pro sports teams. This isn't a profession. It's a game. The actual difference between good teams and people playing terribly and getting farmed out is less effort, by far, than anyone in this thread has spent writing posts. People have a 'right' to make poor choices in a game. They do not have a 'right' to require everyone else to adjust to those poor choices so that the person making them doesn't have to deal with the consequences. That's not sportsmanship, it's contempt.

Saying I'm required to waste a total of 12 minutes over 4 drops if a team wants to troll and hide (which happens more than it should) is stupid. Again, I'm just someone playing the game like everyone else. My time is worth no more or less than anyone elses. They don't have to change to coddle me, I don't have to change to coddle them. We both just play and the one who puts the most effort in wins the match. Game over, queue up, drop again.

That's the game. That's the point of the game. It's a 12 v 12 team v 12 PvP environment. If someone doesn't want to drop against teams we have QP. If we want respawns in QP then ask for respawns in QP. Saying that FW, which is not QP for a reason and is the team based part of the game needs to act like it's QP so people who want to play like it's QP but want the rewards for FW can do so and get protected from the inevitable failure that creates is an idea so absurd it's hard to approach without getting insulting.

On the plus side there's no way any of this sort of thing is going to happen - it would be way more work than just putting respawn maps/modes in QP, which seems to be what some people actually want.

so to water this down hes rich and if everyone else can stop beong poor that would be wonderfull. With that,said poor people stop being mad at the rich. Thanks.

Edit: dag gum autocorrect..

Edited by Grus, 12 September 2017 - 04:47 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Grus, on 12 September 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

so to water this down hes rich and if everyone else can stop beong poor that would be wonderfull. With that,said poor people stop being mad at the rich. Thanks.

Edit: dag gum autocorrect..

No. Not at all what I said.

Have pugged every faction on mech bay tour. Have pugged literally a good thousand+ FW matches. Mostly as IS as a Davion loyalist. Most the people in the game in any team pug periodically at least when their team isn't around, or they group up with other teams. I spent most of that time playing without a mic - often without even getting on TS. Just used chat. Listened to the calls, played with the team.

It's also absolutely false to try and correlate wealth, which is an opportunity based resource, with effort - which is a universally available resource. There's nothing, absolutely and in no way nothing, anyone playing in a group has or does that everyone else can not. Nothing. At all.

It's dishonest and disingenuous to say that putting in the effort to have a decent deck of mechs, trying to play to your team and trying to group up to play FW is akin to being a NFL champion team playing against high school kids. It's insulting to everyone involved. It's an attempt to wave away the realities of the game. Most matches in QP are just as one-sided as any team v pug match can be, just that without respawns it's over more quickly. You put respawns in QP it'll play the same. The team that collectively has put in the most effort both before and in the match usually wins.


We already have QP. FW has higher rewards than QP because the bar for success is higher; you need to put in a tiny bit more effort and group up. Because matches are 12 v 12, team v team with respawns.

[Grus]

MischiefSC, on 12 September 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

No. Not at all what I said.

Have pugged every faction on mech bay tour. Have pugged literally a good thousand+ FW matches. Mostly as IS as a Davion loyalist. Most the people in the game in any team pug periodically at least when their team isn't around, or they group up with other teams. I spent most of that time playing without a mic - often without even getting on TS. Just used chat. Listened to the calls, played with the team.

It's also absolutely false to try and correlate wealth, which is an opportunity based resource, with effort - which is a universally available resource. There's nothing, absolutely and in no way nothing, anyone playing in a group has or does that everyone else can not. Nothing. At all.

It's dishonest and disingenuous to say that putting in the effort to have a decent deck of mechs, trying to play to your team and trying to group up to play FW is akin to being a NFL champion team playing against high school kids. It's insulting to everyone involved. It's an attempt to wave away the realities of the game. Most matches in QP are just as one-sided as any team v pug match can be, just that without respawns it's over more quickly. You put respawns in QP it'll play the same. The team that collectively has put in the most effort both before and in the match usually wins.


We already have QP. FW has higher rewards than QP because the bar for success is higher; you need to put in a tiny bit more effort and group up. Because matches are 12 v 12, team v team with respawns.

if that wasnt your intent then thats fair but thats how i read it, sorry.

[MischiefSC]

There's no magic. The only difference between the "good teams" and bad pugs is:

1. Active effort to take a good deck and understand what that is

2. Going I to the match thinking "I need to work with and play with my team for the teams success even if I die early this wave".

It's irritating to see people aefuinf that everyone who's putting effort into winning matches needs to dial it way back so the people only half trying still feel like winners.

Most of us don't even talk on TS most matches. It's just attitude and behavior. It's not like we're on mech steroids and robbit doping. Most of us are in our 40s. There's no biological or financial advantage. Just attitude and how we play.

That's not haxx. It's not some extreme gaming of the system. It's not an unreasonable expectation that people play a team based game as a team. The problem (and it's solution) is not that teamwork is OP and everyone needs to adjust to cater to the lowest common denominator. It's that playing as a team in a team V team environment is a bare minimum expectation.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Having been on the IS side (you know the side currently getting spawn camped by Kcom) for a couple of weeks now it has been crystal clear to me that many pilots (IS side, but also true of Clanners who complain about this) need to take responsibility for getting in a situation where you get yourself spawn camped.

A few days ago a couple of us 07's played in a PUG group vs. Kcom on Emerald defense. We knew exactly what Kcom would do and pushed up to meet them in force as close to the gates as we could.....and there we met them and there we died with 1/2 the team wetting their pants at the mere sight of Kcom (a very good unit for any new players who might be unaware) and hanging back....1 guy way, way in the back.

Of course the guy in the way back died last and of course he died close to the spawn. Kcom then split pushed the spawn immediately.. we got together what forces we could and pushed one side and managed to kill that remaining 1/2 of their forces....the other 1/2 pushed into the spawn and starting killing the guys who hung at the back wave 1 and were just now dropping in. Our comments to these pilots were not sympathetic....it was along the lines of "that's what you get for not being up with the group fighting, sharing armor, etc wave 1). Go ahead...let Kcom (or any team) teach them a lesson (if they are smart enough to figure it out)....we did tell them what would happen (if they played the way they wanted to play it) before it happened..,.so fair warning.

Sure we lost and it wasn't close.....not Kcoms fault (at least in any negative sportsmanship way) though in how it all went down though...they played their game well and did what competitive teams do they ended us as fast as possible...the spawn camping was really our team's fault...we had lost (and basically had guys sign up to get camped) before the fight even started as these guys who basically are hiding (sniping, LRMing) close to spawn are just selling their teammates out and are setting themselves up positionally to get camped on their redrop. So they need to learn that lesson. .