100 replies to this topic

[BTGbullseye]

Sjorpha, on 14 January 2018 - 02:25 AM, said:

Are you willing to prove this in a scrim?

I put together a 12 lbk team, you put together a team using lrms and try to stop us. You can use any IS mechs and pick the map. I might need a week or two to rally a team.

You buy me the IS mech, and 11 teammates, and you're on.

[ANOM O MECH]

BTGbullseye, on 14 January 2018 - 02:02 AM, said:

Uh... No they aren't... LRMs are quite good against them, if you can focus targets before they get inside minimum range.

I'd ask Pat how many times his rushes have gone down to lrm's but I already know the answer is zero.

[Deathlike]

You have to dump a lot of LRM damage to a single target in order for it to work. The problem is by the time you do that, all it takes is for approximately a third of the team (like 3 or 4) to reach the closest LRM targets (opponents that are closer to the front of the linebackers) and then the savage beatdown starts from there.

This even happens on maps like Alpine and Polar Highlands, both of which are LRM friendly. The thing of it is that the only time a Linebacker rush fails is if they are scared to push. However, any experienced player (that has a clue) knows that the hard counter is very successful, due to LRM mechanics. Losing teams tend to be passive, and the only way a brawl rush even remotely works is smart aggression.

It's just that people don't realize this and repeat the reasons why they fail and don't think about how it works or fails. Even if there is one guy that gets next to no damage, knowing that the rest of their team will have multiple opportunities to pound an LRM user to submission is the only solace necessary.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 January 2018 - 02:04 PM.

[gooddragon2]

Deathlike, on 14 January 2018 - 02:02 PM, said:

You have to dump a lot of LRM damage to a single target in order for it to work. The problem is by the time you do that, all it takes is for approximately a third of the team (like 3 or 4) to reach the closest LRM targets (opponents that are closer to the front of the linebackers) and then the savage beatdown starts from there.

This even happens on maps like Alpine and Polar Highlands, both of which are LRM friendly. The thing of it is that the only time a Linebacker rush fails is if they are scared to push. However, any experienced player (that has a clue) knows that the hard counter is very successful, due to LRM mechanics. Losing teams tend to be passive, and the only way a brawl rush even remotely works is smart aggression.

It's just that people don't realize this and repeat the reasons why they fail and don't think about how it works or fails. Even if there is one guy that gets next to no damage, knowing that the rest of their team will have multiple opportunities to pound an LRM user to submission is the only solace necessary.

My rationale on it is that now it's 11v12 of 65 tons vs 100 tons with otherwise equivalent equipment. And one mech can't be in minimum range of 12.

[Xetelian]

OP: It'd still kiil you all the same if it was an all SCR rush, it isn't the mech, it is the tactics and the teamwork that is wrecking you.

On the topic of an LRM team taking down a LBK rush.


AHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHHAHHHAHAH

No, really.

AHHHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAH

[BTGbullseye]

The problem is that people think that LRM boats should be standing together in a pack, but the reality is that they have a much better time if they're spread out... 200m between them, forming a grid of mechs with incredible coverage. Sure a few will go down to the rush, but those rushes can only go after 1 mech at a time, and the rest of the LRMs can reposition to best hit that pack, while minimising risk to the group as a whole.

[Spheroid]

Just a reminder: Linebackers have never received a chassis specific nerf since release. I will continue to bring that up anytime it is said that once a chassis goes on sale for c-bills it somehow is automatically destined for mediocrity.

Allegedly mechs are balanced by the data garnered from QP. The irony here is Linebackers are never seen in QP only FP. So lacking this data one should continue to expect no changes in their quirk levels. The Assassins are being nerfed because they are present in all gamemodes.

The uber quirks need to go and set of eight emphasized.

[gooddragon2]

BTGbullseye, on 14 January 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

The problem is that people think that LRM boats should be standing together in a pack, but the reality is that they have a much better time if they're spread out... 200m between them, forming a grid of mechs with incredible coverage. Sure a few will go down to the rush, but those rushes can only go after 1 mech at a time, and the rest of the LRMs can reposition to best hit that pack, while minimising risk to the group as a whole.

There's also an assumption that a single lrm20 Launcher takes up 10 slots and 35 tons it seems. And somehow prohibits the use of any other weapons.

[Deathlike]

gooddragon2, on 14 January 2018 - 02:14 PM, said:

My rationale on it is that now it's 11v12 of 65 tons vs 100 tons with otherwise equivalent equipment. And one mech can't be in minimum range of 12.

The error in thinking is that having more tonnage on your side (Atlas and other Assault LRM boats are bad) does not change your ability to dish damage ineffectively and become even an easier target to dispatch (you can only back up so fast in an LRM boat to reduce the effectiveness of a brawling team closing in).

[gooddragon2]

Deathlike, on 14 January 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

The error in thinking is that having more tonnage on your side (Atlas and other Assault LRM boats are bad) does not change your ability to dish damage ineffectively and become even an easier target to dispatch (you can only back up so fast in an LRM boat to reduce the effectiveness of a brawling team closing in).

I'm not talking about boating lrms. I'm talking about 1 lrm 20 on each mech. I assume that you could use other weapons on other slots.

Here's an example of the Stock Atlas AS7-D doing this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=17&l=stock

Obviously you might change the build or use a different mech, but as you can see, it carries other weapons besides an lrm 20.

Edited by gooddragon2, 14 January 2018 - 04:34 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

OP: It'd still kiil you all the same if it was an all SCR rush, it isn't the mech, it is the tactics and the teamwork that is wrecking you.

That still doesnt change the fact that the linebacker is better at that tactic than the stormcrow. And stormcrow rushing was never really a thing, but Linebacker rushing is (they have much more armor and structure quirks so its easier to get entrenched in the enemy dropzone). Although the question is does the linebacker need to be nerfed or does spawn camping need to be nerfed?

IMO spawn camping shouldnt even be a thing. The spawns should be protected by invincible caliope turrets to make spawn camping unprofitable. And there needs to be a central objective(s) to force action so teams cant hide in their spawns.

Thats why skirmish/assault should not be faction warfare gamemodes. Only gamemodes like conquest/domination that have central objectives should be faction warfare gamemodes. And that would allow for the dropzones to be protected by invincible super turrets, which would prevent spawn camping and spawn hiding.

Edited by Khobai, 14 January 2018 - 04:59 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

It is not just linebacker. Even before Linebacker was introduced, teams used Orion and Orion IIC to 'armor rush' stuffs. Now we have Linebacker, both IS and Clan Orion, Assassin, Bushwacker, and Roughneck are used for rush enemies. It is not a new concept. And I feel Black Lanner may be added if it gets incredible defensive quirks.

Even before that, teams also used to rush with lights, which is really nasty if other team is not prepared well.

[gooddragon2]

Khobai, on 14 January 2018 - 04:50 PM, said:

That still doesnt change the fact that the linebacker is better at that tactic than the stormcrow. And stormcrow rushing was never really a thing, but Linebacker rushing is (they have much more armor and structure quirks so its easier to get entrenched in the enemy dropzone). Although the question is does the linebacker need to be nerfed or does spawn camping need to be nerfed?

IMO spawn camping shouldnt even be a thing. The spawns should be protected by invincible caliope turrets to make spawn camping unprofitable. And there needs to be a central objective(s) to force action so teams cant hide in their spawns.

Thats why skirmish/assault should not be faction warfare gamemodes. Only gamemodes like conquest/domination that have central objectives should be faction warfare gamemodes. And that would allow for the dropzones to be protected by invincible super turrets, which would prevent spawn camping and spawn hiding.

I have an easier solution to spawn camping: Gravity (ignore falling damage from that area)



+The red and blue ovals indicate where mechs start out.
+The red and blue rectangles indicate holes in the floor/ceiling where mechs drop down from. Too high for jump jets, low enough to not cause leg damage or significant leg damage. Maybe special map settings, maybe not. Or just recommend jump jets as a requirement to cushion landing?
+The green zone is a capture zone which there are no firing angles from the upper area on or at least not on all of it

This is cribbed from my solaris domination mode suggestion

Incursion mode proves it is possible to create structures in a map after the fact. No additional AI or units are required here. Just terrain addition and a change in where things spawn.

Edited by gooddragon2, 14 January 2018 - 05:34 PM.

[Khobai]

that doesnt stop spawn camping though, the enemy team can just wait underneath and kill the mechs as they drop down. and the platform provides protection from the dropship lasers.

the only way to actually stop spawn camping is to have invincible turrets that make it completely unprofitable to spawn camp.

that idea could work if there were laser turrets on the underside of the platform to prevent the platform from being camped.

Edited by Khobai, 14 January 2018 - 05:40 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

Since the event I have not really seen linebacker rushes, a few people played them but not the majority. Even when I would see big groups dropping in FW I still haven't seen big linebacker rushes.

As to how to defend against them some one already stated the two best things I can think of aim and stay at range.

If you have issues with aiming try more of a disperse weapon like lbx or mrms because you can have some range and some spread for if you are a bad shot. If you are not a bad shot then use pin point obviously.

[Khobai]

Quote

As to how to defend against them some one already stated the two best things I can think of aim and stay at range.

linebackers go 97kph staying at range isnt really an option

[gooddragon2]

Khobai, on 14 January 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

that doesnt stop spawn camping though, the enemy team can just wait underneath and kill the mechs as they drop down. and the platform provides protection from the dropship lasers.

the only way to actually stop spawn camping is to have invincible turrets that make it completely unprofitable to spawn camp.

that idea could work if there were laser turrets on the underside of the platform to prevent the platform from being camped.

Your entire team can coordinate to drop all at once and the enemy has no idea where you'll drop from (there are multiple holes). An additional feature could make the floor transparent from above but opaque from below. You'd literally have... heh... the drop on them XD

Though if they had invincible turrets in combination with nonopaque floor (if it's easier to do turrets) then yeah. Just make the turrets firing loudly enough so you know if there's enemies.

Edited by gooddragon2, 14 January 2018 - 05:46 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

Khobai, on 14 January 2018 - 05:41 PM, said:

linebackers go 97kph staying at range isnt really an option

Actually you can get them up to 104 kph with the skill points, but yeah it is tough to stay at range but might try to use it as long as you can.

[Deathlike]

gooddragon2, on 14 January 2018 - 04:31 PM, said:

I'm not talking about boating lrms. I'm talking about 1 lrm 20 on each mech. I assume that you could use other weapons on other slots.

Here's an example of the Stock Atlas AS7-D doing this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=17&l=stock

Obviously you might change the build or use a different mech, but as you can see, it carries other weapons besides an lrm 20.

1 LRM20 does not really scare people, nor make your build effective or efficient.

I remember people were talking about the Grasshopper utilizing that head missile hardpoint with an LRM5.

Seriously, that's just hurting the build, particularly that tonnage could be more useful for cooling (or ammo in other builds that would have been wasted with 1 LRM launcher).

[gooddragon2]

Deathlike, on 14 January 2018 - 05:54 PM, said:

1 LRM20 does not really scare people, nor make your build effective or efficient.

I remember people were talking about the Grasshopper utilizing that head missile hardpoint with an LRM5.

Seriously, that's just hurting the build, particularly that tonnage could be more useful for cooling (or ammo in other builds that would have been wasted with 1 LRM launcher).

How about 12 lrm 20's? Could that be scary?

Will you have more or less tonnage and hardpoints available after an lrm 20 on a 100 ton mech than a linebacker? How about armor?

Edited by gooddragon2, 14 January 2018 - 06:01 PM.