113 replies to this topic

[SmokeGuar]

Objection: Hearsay!

Since I am lazy and bit busy atm, there will be no evidence presented.

If I recall correctly, awhile back when Evil played IS side, they were undefeated. Not a single loss.
Also, do you bother reading other peoples responses?

When people (mercs, better ones) rarely post K/D ratios on Clan and IS side, they usually have higher ratio on IS side. Making lot of damage on Clan mechs versus IS mechs is easy, getting kills is other matter.

[Xannatharr]

I actually think that balance is relatively close right now, but I think that for poor to average players it is easier to do well in a Clan Mech for a lot of reasons.

Clan mechs do have some significant advantages:

• Easier to stay with the group because average speeds are closer
  
• More chassis with high hard points
  
• Have chassis that combine those high hardpoints with ECM
  
• Have XL engines lighter than LFEs but with the same torso loss survival mechanic
  
• Weapons are lighter and occupy fewer slots
  
• Heavy Large Lasers
  
• Mechs usually come with Endo and/or Ferro (I know that OmniMechs are stuck either with or without)
  
• Heat Sinks take 2 slots instead of 3 - you can boat more of them, so better cooling potential

Obviously IS mechs have some advantages of their own, like armor and structure quirks galore. and there is the FP tonnage advantage, which is considerable. But I think we can all agree that it is a little harder for a bad player to build an absolutely horrible Omnimech than it is for someone to do the same to an IS mech. We can also agree that comp players generally use Clan mechs (with some notable exceptions).

Balance should generally be done based on top-tier play, I get it. But some more minor tweaks here and there might potentially help the disparity between the average Clan pilot and IS pilots.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Xannatharr, on 14 September 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

I actually think that balance is relatively close right now, but I think that for poor to average players it is easier to do well in a Clan Mech for a lot of reasons.

Clan mechs do have some significant advantages:

• Easier to stay with the group because average speeds are closer
  
• More chassis with high hard points
  
• Have chassis that combine those high hardpoints with ECM
  
• Have XL engines lighter than LFEs but with the same torso loss survival mechanic
  
• Weapons are lighter and occupy fewer slots
  
• Heavy Large Lasers
  
• Mechs usually come with Endo and/or Ferro (I know that OmniMechs are stuck either with or without)
  
• Heat Sinks take 2 slots instead of 3 - you can boat more of them, so better cooling potential

Obviously IS mechs have some advantages of their own, like armor and structure quirks galore. and there is the FP tonnage advantage, which is considerable. But I think we can all agree that it is a little harder for a bad player to build an absolutely horrible Omnimech than it is for someone to do the same to an IS mech. We can also agree that comp players generally use Clan mechs (with some notable exceptions).

Balance should generally be done based on top-tier play, I get it. But some more minor tweaks here and there might potentially help the disparity between the average Clan pilot and IS pilots.

Pretty nice summary.

I would just add....

1. IS units can build around certain IS mechs that are fantastic in a certain limited role. Which makes these units tough to face in The FW modes. In pug matches, this ability doesn't show itself..
2. Newer IS & Clan PUGs are equally dumb in terms of gameplay ....they also build dumb mechs....however Clan PUGs can build (super high alpha) dumb mechs that can really hurt you if they get even 1 clean shot off.. I recently ran into a 4x ATM 12 night gyr in a match....if you get close, he has nothing to hurt you with and he has low mobility to position....however you get caught in that damage sweet spot with those atm's 1x, you are wrecked.

[Kotis77]

Zoose, on 14 September 2017 - 01:41 AM, said:

Ok just to point out to the couple of people trying to say its not the mechs. this wives tale has been around for a while and over the years CW has been around I have seen countless people make this argument only to play IS and Clan for periods of time and change their mind but lets go around the merry go-round another time.

1) the competition players in comps use 85% + clans mechs. Are you trying to seriously say competitive players are choosing inferior mechs when everything is on the line.......like lolcopterbbx what?
2) We are 505 loyal Kurita and have been loyal since CW inception (with a couple of minor player tours). We have played all of the top merc teams when they have dropped IS and clan. If you play long enough it will become apparent to you as it did to the veteran IS players (many of who have left). The difference in even players abilities with the different mech types is astonishing. Respectfully you are either trolling, have not played both types enough to have an informed comment or out of your mind.
3) We play Pubs and have played comp in Clan mechs and still flog the **** out of IS mechs on a weekly basis. If you cannot build Clans mechs to smash IS you are doing it wrong. Trust me the stats on both Kcom and Evil show you what is possible if you put great players in clan mechs, the win to lose ratio is evidence enough.

Even people on these forums have posted up their clan ratio to IS ratio and Clan is a clear leader.

Where I think you may be making a mistake is..... You look at the Clan pugs going so well and see the IS pugs going so poorly and you make the assumption that it just happens to be bad players going to IS when the fact of the matter is, its the same calibre of player going to IS and clan. Its just the clan mechs make average players look ok.

You were replying to me?

First of all who are you?

Second i was writing in faction forum not comp forum or i think i did... of course in comp i use mostly clan mechs cos those huge alphas and got time to cool down and more variety of builds ofc. And would like to go to play clan too in cw, but clan is so overpopulated at the moment that i dont wanna wait 15-30mins for game.

Third Ive been bashing clans for month straight. Not many wins but cos ****** IS people.

Fourth of course clans has better ratio because of better player base. Its just simple as that.

Go play this game and get good or shut the **** up

Edited by Kotis77, 14 September 2017 - 10:46 AM.

[Mi Ro Ki]

Kotis77, on 14 September 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

You were replying to me?

First of all who are you?

Second i was writing in faction forum not comp forum or i think i did... of course in comp i use mostly clan mechs cos those huge alphas and got time to cool down and more variety of builds ofc. And would like to go to play clan too in cw, but clan is so overpopulated at the moment that i dont wanna wait 15-30mins for game.

Third Ive been bashing clans for month straight. Not many wins but cos ****** IS people.

Fourth of course clans has better ratio because of better player base. Its just simple as that.

Go play this game and get good or shut the **** up

That moral high ground "who are you" hahaha.

[Kotis77]

i think i know lot about cw and its population. and havent seen this guy ever.

*edit. or you

Edited by Kotis77, 14 September 2017 - 03:30 PM.

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

+1 a lot of the responses in forums come from "unseens", some actually play some really dont, also could play different times/zones/days than you :3

[Nightbird]

The tug-of-war and planet tagging w/MC reward guarantees skewed balance. If the two sides are balanced, no one gets any MC, so you always want to stack one side or the other. The last time IS was made a little better, all the good units rotated to IS side and Clans lost all of their planets.

If I were to balance this, I would give mercs (not loyalists, just mercs) 1% of loyalty points as MC when the bar is in the middle, decreasing to 0% linearly when it moves to one side or the other. This makes good players want to spread out to maintain bar in the middle.

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

And (NS) with the surprisingly valid and decent proposal out of left field!!!!!

[MischiefSC]

Kotis77, on 14 September 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

i think i know lot about cw and its population. and havent seen this guy ever.

*edit. or you

You may want to check the leaderboard for FW then.

COMA is an excellent IS unit, just a small one. They have one of the top 5 W/L ratios of any loyalist unit and a very small unit to have actual planetary wins, and one of only about a dozen IS loyalist units with any planetary wins at all.

Not trying to get into any stat-shaming but if you're going to say 'who are you' and attempt to stat-shame someones opinions and arguments you may want to actually look up the stats involved and compare them to your own. There's 24 hours in a day; some teams tend to play at different times than others. Just because you don't see someone doesn't mean they don't play.

Mi Ro Ki, on 13 September 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

That's why he went to clan, cos he knew all his days in Davion playing IS mechs sucked haha.

I didn't go Clan, I went merc because PGI finally put the last nail in the coffin for having any point to factions and because getting to play in KCom has been pretty awesome. Certainly has helped me learn to play better.

Balance is better than it's been, but was best before the skill tree. The recent tech update has leaned a bit more into Clans. Two good teams in 12mans are a pretty close match but the moment you put pugs into the mix, CXL, higher speed and better cooling plus higher alpha is telling. If IS pugs could twist and make not-terrible choices it wouldn't be as big an issue.

However without CXL balance and something to buff either IS DPS or alpha potential to offset the Clan big alpha potential it's not going to get fixed. Currently I can puke up 64-80pts in an alpha two or three times in a row, scoot along at 70-80kph to get into position faster and can start killing stuff effectively at 500m out even on a 'brawling' build most the time. I'm facing 40-60pt alphas that may be 0.2 seconds faster duration but the people who can exploit that effectively can all eat lunch at the same table, comfortably. That and an extra 10 points of health (structure/armor/whatever) doesn't offset a 25-50% damage edge, 10-30% range edge, 10-20% more speed and always surviving ST loss.

Ironically I still prefer my IS mechs though. Roughnecks play very well for me in FW (UAC10s, SRM6A or high central mounted laservomit all work well for me) and I've just spent about 10,000 total matches in IS mechs in QP and FW. However I recognize that overall, on the average, Clans are better. Not a ton better, nothing like they were (It used to be you could roll over in bed and win a match in a TBR) but still better.

At this point, so many years later, I have 0 expectation that it will get fixed. That just is what it is. It sucks, it's not fair, it's not good game design but they've given people crutches for a lot of years and it's a bit late to make people play on an even field when most don't even know what it would look like.

[Fuerchtenichts]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 14 September 2017 - 07:17 AM, said:

Pretty nice summary.

I would just add....

1. IS units can build around certain IS mechs that are fantastic in a certain limited role. Which makes these units tough to face in The FW modes. In pug matches, this ability doesn't show itself..
2. Newer IS & Clan PUGs are equally dumb in terms of gameplay ....they also build dumb mechs....however Clan PUGs can build (super high alpha) dumb mechs that can really hurt you if they get even 1 clean shot off.. I recently ran into a 4x ATM 12 night gyr in a match....if you get close, he has nothing to hurt you with and he has low mobility to position....however you get caught in that damage sweet spot with those atm's 1x, you are wrecked.

MiMiMi....

[Mi Ro Ki]

MischiefSC, on 14 September 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

I didn't go Clan, I went merc

Just takin the piss I knew it would trigger ya hahaha.

Pretty much agree with the skill tree and closer balance pre that patch. Now it's a joke and evident that skill tree favors a clan mech easily. It's lul that people are still saying "overquirked is mechs" imo.

[Zoose]

MischiefSC, on 14 September 2017 - 10:53 PM, said:

You may want to check the leaderboard for FW then.

COMA is an excellent IS unit, just a small one. They have one of the top 5 W/L ratios of any loyalist unit and a very small unit to have actual planetary wins, and one of only about a dozen IS loyalist units with any planetary wins at all.

Not trying to get into any stat-shaming but if you're going to say 'who are you' and attempt to stat-shame someones opinions and arguments you may want to actually look up the stats involved and compare them to your own. There's 24 hours in a day; some teams tend to play at different times than others. Just because you don't see someone doesn't mean they don't play.

I was going to post a thought out and considered response to what must be an obvious troll because who calls someone out when they are on a 1.87 win/loss ratio and play in a team that you have to look three pages deep to find. Especially when it takes 30 seconds to check this info. Maybe your game play is as lazy as your ability to think before you type. Actually now I understand why you have formed the view you have.........

Instead, I will give you 30 seconds and thank Mischief for replying on my behalf.

Edited by Zoose, 15 September 2017 - 02:33 AM.

[Fuerchtenichts]

Xannatharr, on 14 September 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

Easier to stay with the group because average speeds are closer

Has been a historical feature before implementing IIC Mechs and the new skill tree - now obsolethe

Xannatharr, on 14 September 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

More chassis with high hard points

Although I have been too lazy to search in detail, here some actual data from smurfy

IS chassis with variants:
Lights 10 58
Mediums 16 105
Heavys 14 78
Assaults 12 79
Sum 62 320

Clan chassis with variants:
Lights 6 37
Mediums 7 47
Heavys 9 54
Assaults 9 59
Sum 31 197

So IS has double the number of chassis than Clan. I guess there will be enough suitable variants with high hardpoints

Xannatharr, on 14 September 2017 - 06:12 AM, said:

Have chassis that combine those high hardpoints with ECM

IS Mechs with ECM and >=3 high hardpoints (just examples....)
LCT-PB
JVN-11B
WLF-GR
CDA-3M
GRF-2N
STK-3FB

Clan Mechs with ECM and >=3 high hardpoints
KFX
SHC
HBR

So this statement is obviously wrong.


My opinion to your posting Xannatharr:

• Building a competitive IS mech is more complex than a Clan one. In the end it will cost you the same amount of CBills.
  
• IS Mechs are specialists while Clan Mechs are a bit more generalist regarding their role on the battlefield. This means that IS tactics need to be more specific to make the best use of the tech and also need more coordination between the team members when chosing the team line up. So the requirements regarding team play are higher on IS side.

This is what makes Clan side more newbie friendly

[AJBennett]

My take on the state of FW currently...there are only 2 or 3 good IS units dropping in FW together lately (...burned out on FW?), and the good Clan units are facing disorganized PUGs out of a lack of competition (...no slight on their ability)...SO FW has become a one sided roflstomp with a big Clanner boot.

[A Shoddy Rental Mech]

Fuerchtenichts, on 15 September 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

stuff

You are confusing quantity vs quality.

I.S. has more mechs. I.S. has more ECM mechs
Clan has better mechs. Clan has better ECM mechs

You didn't mention the Arctic cheetah or the MAD-IIC-D. Two of the better chasis in the game with ECM.

[Xannatharr]

Fuerchtenichts with all due respect I disagree.

Fuerchtenichts, on 15 September 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

Has been a historical feature before implementing IIC Mechs and the new skill tree - now obsolete

While it is true that IIC mechs allow the player to potentially build mechs that are extremely slow and useless, I think you would agree that the the IIC mechs and clan Battlemechs (Like the Kodiak) that you see on the field are usually viable and not creeping along at 50 KPH.

Hunchback IIC - one of the most vicious medium mechs out there with high hard points, great for Heavy Lasers, ERLL, Dakka.. you name it.

Marauder IIC - come on, this mech is EXTREMELY good. I will admit that I saw someone boating LRMs on a Mad IIC (maybe it was a Scorch?) but this is extremely rare. And look at the Scorch... AWESOME.

Fuerchtenichts, on 15 September 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

Although I have been too lazy to search in detail, here some actual data from smurfy

IS chassis with variants:
Lights 10 58
Mediums 16 105
Heavys 14 78
Assaults 12 79
Sum 62 320

Clan chassis with variants:
Lights 6 37
Mediums 7 47
Heavys 9 54
Assaults 9 59
Sum 31 197

So IS has double the number of chassis than Clan. I guess there will be enough suitable variants with high hardpoints

The absolute number of Chaissis is not what I am talking about. I am talking about the variety of available Chassis that are actually really good mechs in the Faction Play Environment.

Battlemaster, Grasshopper, Warhammer, Griffon. What other IS mechs are really extremely good right now?

Fuerchtenichts, on 15 September 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

IS Mechs with ECM and >=3 high hardpoints (just examples....)
LCT-PB
JVN-11B
WLF-GR
CDA-3M
GRF-2N
STK-3FB

Clan Mechs with ECM and >=3 high hardpoints
KFX
SHC
HBR

So this statement is obviously wrong.

The problem here is the Hellbringer. Notice the IS mechs you listed are all lights and mediums that have no viable long range builds. And the IS assault mech you listed can't be bought with C-Bills, can it?

Why is it that when I see a good team like [EVIL] or [KCOM] there will usually be 5+ Hellbringers in the first wave (unless they are running brawlers)? Is there a viable IS Heavy that has ECM and nice high hardpoints? Didn't think so.

Fuerchtenichts, on 15 September 2017 - 02:59 AM, said:

[color=#959595]My opinion to your posting Xannatharr:[/color]

• Building a competitive IS mech is more complex than a Clan one. In the end it will cost you the same amount of CBills.
  
• IS Mechs are specialists while Clan Mechs are a bit more generalist regarding their role on the battlefield. This means that IS tactics need to be more specific to make the best use of the tech and also need more coordination between the team members when chosing the team line up. So the requirements regarding team play are higher on IS side.

Really can't argue with you here, I think this is good analysis. +1


Regards,

Xann

Edited by Xannatharr, 15 September 2017 - 07:49 AM.

[Fuerchtenichts]

The Nerf Bat, on 15 September 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

Clan has better ECM mechs

define "better"

The Nerf Bat, on 15 September 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

You didn't mention the Arctic cheetah or the MAD-IIC-D. Two of the better chasis in the game with ECM.

ECM ACH has only 2 side high torso hardpoints
MAD-IIC-D has at least 1 real high hardpoint

It is so sad that you obviously take more care of Clan mechs than to find the gems on IS side.

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 15 September 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[Fuerchtenichts]

Xannatharr, on 15 September 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

good mechs in the Faction Play Environment. Battlemaster, Grasshopper, Warhammer, Griffon. What other IS mechs are really extremely good right now?

Under which circumstances? What about the Bushwacker, Assassin or Locust?

Xannatharr, on 15 September 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

.
The problem here is the Hellbringer. Notice the IS mechs you listed are all lights and mediums that have no viable long range builds. And the IS assault mech you listed can't be bought with C-Bills, can it? Why is it that when I see a good team like [EVIL] or [KCOM] there will usually be 5+ Hellbringers in the first wave (unless they are running brawlers)? Is there a viable IS Heavy that has ECM and nice high hardpoints? Didn't think so.

The Hellbringer is one of the best fitting mechs for the 240t limit. If you want to bring 3 heavys as Clan it simply has to be mainly based on hellbringers or ebons. As both are quite flexible plattforms for different types of weapons depending on the map temperature and preferred fighting range.This is also a severe problem, because it makes Clan forces very predictable.

I don't understand the fixation of many IS players that they want the same mechs as the clans have. There are some IS/Merc units that make perfectly use of their IS mechs advantages. But it is clearly a minority.

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 15 September 2017 - 01:41 PM.

[Kotis77]

Hope this is my last message to these forums.

Sorry for beeing blunt before.

I just hate that mediocre players shout that mechs are to blame for losses in cw. And poisoning minds of new players that are willing to try this gamemode. Its kinda gets to human mind before you have even started to play everyone tells you have no chance against so "OP" mechs that you will lose before starting.

And hope some old players treat new players with respect. And gets cw back on track where it was years ago. Robots vs robots. And not that stupid 900 meters sniping or just mindless genrush.

But i think major problem is PGI.

I tought canadians were smart people. But they really are clueless what paying customers wants in this robotgame.

I think every step they make in cw makes it worse. And its showing in my friendlist. If they would fix friendslist promblem i think people would really see what kinda ghost town mwo is nowdays. And if they would listen to paying customers how to fix this game i think most guys would come back.

But thats just my wishful thinking. ✌