134 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DAYLEET, on 23 August 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Its simplified

How is it simplified? The reason I bring up 8v8 comp vs 12v12 comp is because those are where you are going to find the most depth strategically/tactically and when it comes to which has more depth, a majority of comp players agreed it was 8v8. QP isn't going to change drastically strategically/tactically other than player skill differences deciding more matches and things that take advantage of lower coordination (LRMs, harassers, backstabbers, etc).

DAYLEET, on 23 August 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

We will never have real game mode with as few players as we have now, 12v12 hardly makes conquest/invasion work.

......Conquest and Invasion don't work because PUGs make it that way (Invasion is also stupid but that's a different story). People have differing understandings of how to play the game and how the game should work. We could have 30 players per side and you would STILL have assaults running off to cap for no freaking reason (and yes, that is still a waste with that many people per side).

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Because the people begging for 8v8 for the most part don't even visit this brown sea.

The circle jerk that is reddit is inhabited by 8 active guys at best. Its a safe place for those who cant post here. Its fun to read like watching rednecks ***** about the government. Entertaining but not to be taken seriously. It does look like all the original /mwo/ turds migrated to /outreachhpg/

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2017 - 02:34 PM, said:

Then your proof is faulty because 8v8 comp > 12v12 comp.

I would say that there is a bell curve. Too few or too many players on the field, and the game becomes less interesting and more about single tactics/strats being the dominating thing (4v4 is deathball rushes and 12v12 is static concave firing lines). Of course it also depends on the map as well but generally 8v8 is more interesting than 12v12 and 4v4.

12 v 12 requires a lot more coordination to pull off in a team - however, if you do, then it's a pretty brief match - focus fire 4 sets of 3 v 1 to delete 3 mechs every trade. It's all but impossible to trade without getting focused and pushing is really easy if the other team hasn't very carefully set a line. If I can push 12 mechs onto one flank where only 6 of you can shoot back at us and the other 6 are blocked by terrain it'll be over before you reposition.

However, for puggles doing the Rambo it's great. 12 v 12 means nobody even tries to coordinate and there's usually 1 or 2 people wandering off or left alone. The lack of cohesive strategy but managing to get 4 people trading from the same location at 1 guy FEELS like strategy so ZOMG 12 v 12 so tactical!

12 v 12 is more forgiving for being bad and lets even bads get passable damage sometimes. So if you're bad, that's a good thing. The problem is that we've now spent a couple of years rewarding and teaching people to be bad. It's hard to walk that back.

[Johnny Z]

One of the best things about MechWarrior Online design is it can have massive battles. Something Star Citizen didn't do for example.

I wont link a video of an upcoming game where massive detailed battles on instanced fields is the way to go, and is very popular. MechWarrior very correctly went this route.

This new game will have 100's, yes 100's of NPC's and many players all in 1st and third person very detailed battles. Mostly a single player game.

So maybe 12 v 12 is good, more is definitely better, and maybe 8 v 8 is ok for some matches also.

Edited by Johnny Z, 23 August 2017 - 03:11 PM.

[MischiefSC]

DAYLEET, on 23 August 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

The circle jerk that is reddit is inhabited by 8 active guys at best. Its a safe place for those who cant post here. Its fun to read like watching rednecks ***** about the government. Entertaining but not to be taken seriously. It does look like all the original /mwo/ turds migrated to /outreachhpg/

No no, it's 16 people. First you get the 8man circle jerk on an idea. Then someone starts a reverse-jerk that 8 other people get into about how bad the idea the first 8 were jerking over is.

That's pretty much every single Reddit sub and thread ever. Jerk, reverse jerk. Then cat memes.

[poltergoost]

Well, one things for sure

PGI have discovered a great way of splintering the player base further

[MadRover]

Natred, on 23 August 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Please for the love of all that is holy and awesome do no go down to 8 vs 8 for quick play.

12 vs 12
More people means more tactics and strategy
More inovative and experienceful drops
Higher chance of being surprised by the random unaccounted for enemy.
More fun and complex
More strategy in 12 vs 12. More mechs to damage so more c bills to make
Invigorating to hardcore gamers

8 vs 8
Less mechs, quicker uneventful matches.
Still going to be pub stomping newbs in less than 2 minutes- matchmaker would fix this or an overhaul to the tier system
Less strategy and planning
More straight forward fighting and less tactics
Quicker matches
Less cbills to make

If anything i would love to see 15 on 15 or 30 on 30 mech mayhem. No need to water the game down..

Wrong reasons. The real reasons are that everything is now balanced in a 12v12 team format. The matchmaking is also bad with one team usually getting a stomp or worse, a rofl stomp. The absolute worst case scenario is one team is bad while the other team is worse (which needs to be explained to me why this is happening but I might've answered this) which is bad. Now the final reason not to go 8v8 period is PGI's original vision of having big mech battles. 12v12 almost hits the mark when the matchmaker actually works and 15v15 would be nice to see. Going 8v8 is a giant leap in the WRONG DIRECTION. Going 8v8 is going to be the biggest sign that the game is a sinking ship. Now we all know that the total game population is low, but if you want a game to start going backwards, then the game itself is a sinking ship and most likely a lost cause at this point which is exactly what any devs does not want.

[DAYLEET]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

The reason I bring up 8v8 comp vs 12v12 comp is because those are where you are going to find the most depth strategically/tactically...

What 12v12 comp? where are those? We do know how present day 8v8 and 4v4 is in mwo. We dont need to look further. We also know how qp 12v12 works. We can work from there using logic. You probably take your "depth strategically/tactically" part out of a special comp match.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

QP isn't going to change drastically strategically/tactically other than player skill differences deciding more matches and things that take advantage of lower coordination (LRMs, harassers, backstabbers, etc).

QP is not going to change at all. DeathBalling will be that much more important, just how it is in 8v8 comp and just how it is even more important in 4v4. This is what we see right now. It's a lot easier to compose with people out of place in 12v12 than in 8v8 4v4. Unless you dont differentiate between QP and highly coordinated comp team.

I honestly dont remember 12v12 comp. I remember comp match in the poptart era on old forest and those were poke_your_own_eyes boring.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 23 August 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

......Conquest and Invasion don't work because PUGs make it that way (Invasion is also stupid but that's a different story). People have differing understandings of how to play the game and how the game should work. We could have 30 players per side and you would STILL have assaults running off to cap for no freaking reason (and yes, that is still a waste with that many people per side).

Conquest and invasion works great in 12v12 qp. in 30v30 having 2 assault on side cap would not be such a liability as it is in 12v12 or downright game ending in 8v8. In fact it just might make sense. Because the more people playing the more you can afford to do your thing. QP is meant to have a chaotic part, sometimes it works better than other times. Not sanitized/choregraphed comp where everything is planed from each mech in the team to their laodout etc.

[TWIAFU]

Bud Crue, on 23 August 2017 - 02:02 PM, said:

Seriously? Murder ball with the normal 1 disco, 1 guy running off on his own, and the 1 ever helpful narc/scout mech dropping narcs and uavs while you are still at 1500m, over and over is "inovative and experienceful"?

And having those three mechs/pilots in 8v8 will be "better"?

Sure, we all get derp-a-tastic, pugtard supreme QP drops in 12v12, it is what it's there for. At least with 12v12, having those three there out of twelve could be somewhat compensated for, or carried, with some semblance to possibly achieve victory.

Not with 8v8. Not with 8v8 as standard size.

process, on 23 August 2017 - 02:01 PM, said:

Why not both? Also, couldn't matchmaker scale down to 8v8 as a low-pop relief mechanism?

Good idea. 8v8 on low pop, 12v12 for higher pop. Everyone happy.

[DAYLEET]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

12 v 12 is more forgiving for being bad

Correction, 12v12 is more forgiving for the team as a whole. You will still get those people in 8v8 and it will be a lot more punishing for you and your team mates. Its fine that qp is chaotic and dumb at times, its what its there for. So lets not try to turn it into comp because nobody wants to play it.

[MischiefSC]

DAYLEET, on 23 August 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

What 12v12 comp? where are those? We do know how present day 8v8 and 4v4 is in mwo. We dont need to look further. We also know how qp 12v12 works. We can work from there using logic. You probably take your "depth strategically/tactically" part out of a special comp match.


QP is not going to change at all. DeathBalling will be that much more important, just how it is in 8v8 comp and just how it is even more important in 4v4. This is what we see right now. It's a lot easier to compose with people out of place in 12v12 than in 8v8 4v4. Unless you dont differentiate between QP and highly coordinated comp team.

I honestly dont remember 12v12 comp. I remember comp match in the poptart era on old forest and those were poke_your_own_eyes boring.


Conquest and invasion works great in 12v12 qp. in 30v30 having 2 assault on side cap would not be such a liability as it is in 12v12 or downright game ending in 8v8. In fact it just might make sense. Because the more people playing the more you can afford to do your thing. QP is meant to have a chaotic part, sometimes it works better than other times. Not sanitized/choregraphed comp where everything is planed from each mech in the team to their laodout etc.

Except with even a decently skilled team 2 Linebackers can kill a whole base in less than 2 minutes from the point they bust in.

Comp sanitized....

Have you ever watched or listened to a comp match?

Chaos is what creates stomps because you're counting on luck, not actual player skill. A team is way better able to so things like a 2 mech base rush than a pug team. Be that 8 or 12.

Though it's true - 8 v 8 will punish potatoes more than good players.

[Bud Crue]

TWIAFU, on 23 August 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

And having those three mechs/pilots in 8v8 will be "better"?

Sure, we all get derp-a-tastic, pugtard supreme QP drops in 12v12, it is what it's there for. At least with 12v12, having those three there out of twelve could be somewhat compensated for, or carried, with some semblance to possibly achieve victory.

Not with 8v8. Not with 8v8 as standard size.



Good idea. 8v8 on low pop, 12v12 for higher pop. Everyone happy.

Not better necessarily. Not worse either. I think 8v8 will lead to the MM being better at forming equally weighted smaller teams given the apparently lowering population of the game. Imho PGI isn't proposing this due to some shocking realization that 8v8 is superior or better than 12v12, rather PGI is doing this because the MM doesn't have sufficient numbers to work with in 12v12 and 8v8 is their solution. It is what it is, but I don't buy the OP's premise that 12v12 is more innovative or emotionally rewarding than 8v8.

[Bigbacon]

Inagree with op


Please dont change it

[Johnny Z]

Bud Crue, on 23 August 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Not better necessarily. Not worse either. I think 8v8 will lead to the MM being better at forming equally weighted smaller teams given the apparently lowering population of the game. Imho PGI isn't proposing this due to some shocking realization that 8v8 is superior or better than 12v12, rather PGI is doing this because the MM doesn't have sufficient numbers to work with in 12v12 and 8v8 is their solution. It is what it is, but I don't buy the OP's premise that 12v12 is more innovative or emotionally rewarding than 8v8.

Quickplay has no problem making 12 v 12 matches so your reply is just wrong. I don't know about the other queues, although faction pay matches are very quick as well.

Edited by Johnny Z, 23 August 2017 - 05:07 PM.

[DAYLEET]

MischiefSC, on 23 August 2017 - 03:58 PM, said:

Except with even a decently skilled team 2 Linebackers can kill a whole base in less than 2 minutes from the point they bust in.

Comp sanitized....

Have you ever watched or listened to a comp match?

Chaos is what creates stomps because you're counting on luck, not actual player skill. A team is way better able to so things like a 2 mech base rush than a pug team. Be that 8 or 12.

Though it's true - 8 v 8 will punish potatoes more than good players.

Yeah your right about invasion. For it to work, both team must make it work. I think its dumb that the team who dont want to play it can easily rush it and win. Its very rare though. One team should have a base and the other attack. Invasion lay out is a lot better than siege in fp.

I only watch last year comp. You have to admit they are setup in very particular and specific ways because comp is very restrictive. It is in the weight class distribution, the mech you usen, the loadout you use etc. I mean the 5K saw use, not because its a good mech but because they had a very specific plan for it. Its an antithesis of QP. But it all start very static, not unlike QP but in QP its not static always at the same place. Even if that make some people unhappy.

potatoes will be in the same team as the good players. Nothing will change there.

[DAYLEET]

Bud Crue, on 23 August 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Not better necessarily. Not worse either. I think 8v8 will lead to the MM being better at forming equally weighted smaller teams given the apparently lowering population of the game. Imho PGI isn't proposing this due to some shocking realization that 8v8 is superior or better than 12v12, rather PGI is doing this because the MM doesn't have sufficient numbers to work with in 12v12 and 8v8 is their solution. It is what it is, but I don't buy the OP's premise that 12v12 is more innovative or emotionally rewarding than 8v8.

Bucket fixes never fixed anything in mwo or other games. Going backward like this would be a huge negative statement to make for PGI. You know, like when mmos merge all servers. Thats good for a while for the people who currently play but no one joins a sinking ship and youre still sinking.

I think it time to redo somethings like game modes for PGI rather than go backward. Go away from arena match. It would require time, lots of work and you could/should call it MWO 2 and look like you start anew for the best. Just migrate our stuff over there. A new game gets more people interested than a last ditch effort.

Edited by DAYLEET, 23 August 2017 - 05:17 PM.

[MischiefSC]

DAYLEET, on 23 August 2017 - 05:08 PM, said:

Yeah your right about invasion. For it to work, both team must make it work. I think its dumb that the team who dont want to play it can easily rush it and win. Its very rare though. One team should have a base and the other attack. Invasion lay out is a lot better than siege in fp.

I only watch last year comp. You have to admit they are setup in very particular and specific ways because comp is very restrictive. It is in the weight class distribution, the mech you usen, the loadout you use etc. I mean the 5K saw use, not because its a good mech but because they had a very specific plan for it. Its an antithesis of QP. But it all start very static, not unlike QP but in QP its not static always at the same place. Even if that make some people unhappy.

potatoes will be in the same team as the good players. Nothing will change there.

I dunno. I saw one scrub in a Kit Fox at one point. Last season's MRBC was hugely diverse and had a LOT of teams. A lot of great games and other than 2 Novas every deck it had a lot of variety.

[El Bandito]

Natred, on 23 August 2017 - 01:52 PM, said:

Please for the love of all that is holy and awesome do no go down to 8 vs 8 for quick play.

12 vs 12
More people means more tactics and strategy
More inovative and experienceful drops
Higher chance of being surprised by the random unaccounted for enemy.
More fun and complex
More strategy in 12 vs 12. More mechs to damage so more c bills to make
Invigorating to hardcore gamers

Hah!

12 vs 12
More people means more pugs/discos/AFKs/people not in my tier.
More deathballing and nascaring compared to 8v8 before.
Lower chance of being surprised by the random unaccounted for enemy cause everyone huddles together in order not to be obliterated by 12 man from the opposing team.
Less fun and complex in 12v12. Every match goes relatively the same--my old videos had shown me that back in 8v8 days that was not so.
Less strategy and freedom in 12 vs 12. Old 8v8 had MORE C-Bill rewards, compared to when we just switched to 12v12.
8v8 is far more casual friendly thanks to reduced wait time, better MM and better FPS. People can actually try out the game without having to build better rig for it.

Edited by El Bandito, 23 August 2017 - 05:22 PM.

[Magnus Santini]

Sounds like PGI wants to put 4 mechworkers out of a job every 15 minutes!!! If the president finds out he will build a destructible wall and make Canada pay for it.

[KursedVixen]

Smites, on 23 August 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:

It's weird how people were begging for PGI to go back to 8v8, and now that they might? We don't want it... why?

because the complainers are like a bunch of politically correct imbeciles who don't think through what they're saying.

Magnus Santini, on 23 August 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Sounds like PGI wants to put 4 mechworkers out of a job every 15 minutes!!! If the president finds out he will build a destructible wall and make Canada pay for it.

Canada? what is this canada you speak of? Do you mean capellans?

Edited by KursedVixen, 23 August 2017 - 05:28 PM.