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How Do We Convince Pgi To Nerf Laser Vomit?


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#41 Lupis Volk

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:43 PM

View PostMadRover, on 26 August 2017 - 02:41 PM, said:


The Deathstrike isn't near as good as people make it out to be. Otherwise every hero mech that's currently in game has an issue.

BH2 can do IS laser vomit like a real champ. No one complains about it.
Night Gyr can do what any other mech with similar hardpoints can do. No one complains about Night Gyr
Kodiak with quad gauss. No one complains about Kodiak
Catapult Jester that is laser vomit. No one complains.
Roughneck that can do laser vomit. No one complains.

You seeing the pattern? People complain to get something nerfed into the ground because they don't want to learn how to counter, or they get crapped on by players who know how to play that particular mech in that way. Guess what you have to do? Learn how to counter those builds. I am so sick and tired of people coming to the forums crying like 2yr olds because they get their own *** handed to them by people who know to play.

How to counter LRMs? PUSH those LRMs
How to counter gauss? Close distance and tear off the STs
How to laser vomit? Push them hard or twist the damage all over your mech's body.

Not hard people

Pity it's too hard. It's sad that there's a subset of players *mainly IS* that refuse to improve themselves and instead whine on the forums for nerfs and crutches.

#42 AncientRaig

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:47 PM

Nerf lasers? Again? Are you serious? The last "balance" pass for energy weapons broke Clan ER and pulse lasers completely, and you want to nerf them more? Get out.

#43 Steve Pryde

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:47 PM

What do u want to nerf? Laservomit is still pretty hot, u have no sustain fire. When a team decides to push with dakka/brawl mechs u're dead with laservomit only.

The only problem what I have still beta is that easymode point&click use of laser weapons.

And u know how bad PGI is in changing things when they forget to adjust Clan large pulse lasers. They still miss doubled maximum range like all the other lasers for no reason.

Edited by Steve Pryde, 26 August 2017 - 02:50 PM.


#44 HammerMaster

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:50 PM

Convergence.


#45 MadRover

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 02:59 PM

View PostLupis Volk, on 26 August 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Pity it's too hard. It's sad that there's a subset of players *mainly IS* that refuse to improve themselves and instead whine on the forums for nerfs and crutches.


Apparently it is too hard. Must be CoD teaching these people really bad habits. Or is it For Honor? I can't tell the difference anymore.

#46 MischiefSC

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 03:10 PM

It's not about how hard something is - it's about how hard it is relative to something else.

If the Deathstrike is better than its peers it needs looked at. That's not new nor unique. It's always fun to have a mech that performs better than others in its class but that's not good for balance.

#47 Lupis Volk

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 03:26 PM

View PostMadRover, on 26 August 2017 - 02:59 PM, said:


Apparently it is too hard. Must be CoD teaching these people really bad habits. Or is it For Honor? I can't tell the difference anymore.

It's not even that. I'd blame developers caving to the masses.

#48 Alan Davion

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 03:26 PM

View PostLupis Volk, on 26 August 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Pity it's too hard. It's sad that there's a subset of players *mainly IS* that refuse to improve themselves and instead whine on the forums for nerfs and crutches.


There have been plenty of Clan players guilty of trying to keep Clan mechs superior to IS mechs as well, so I wouldn't start down that slippery slope if I were you.

#49 Lupis Volk

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 03:51 PM

View PostAlan Davion, on 26 August 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:


There have been plenty of Clan players guilty of trying to keep Clan mechs superior to IS mechs as well, so I wouldn't start down that slippery slope if I were you.

Oh i will go there Davion Dezgra, because i was one a proud remember of the FRR. I left in disgust as many a member refused to better themselves Instead they because milk drinkers and cried and raged for the clans to be nerfed, while disguised as a cry for balance it was in fact a petty ploy that was bolstered by the false logic that Clan tech was the be all and end all, they ignored all what made their weapons better than Clan tech. These milk drinkers ignore their defensive quirks and only point out the Clan quirks that benefit their agenda while ignoring the fact that many a clan mech need to use all the pods of that variant to attain such quirks, where the IS mechs get theirs for free and are often better.

If only the IS strove to improve themselves, we'd have less cry baby threads like this one.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 26 August 2017 - 03:55 PM.


#50 ZippySpeedMonkey

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:05 PM

Perhaps, if they were to implement some sort of energy point generation system that was based on the size of the engine...

Oh wait....

#51 Y E O N N E

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:05 PM

View PostLupis Volk, on 26 August 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

Pity it's too hard. It's sad that there's a subset of players *mainly IS* that refuse to improve themselves and instead whine on the forums for nerfs and crutches.


Depends on which section of the forum you hang out in. In General Discussion, it's all rah rah nerf Clans. If you hang out in Announcements, it's all rah rah nerf IS.

#52 Lupis Volk

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:09 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 26 August 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:


Depends on which section of the forum you hang out in. In General Discussion, it's all rah rah nerf Clans. If you hang out in Announcements, it's all rah rah nerf IS and FW is alll what are you doing!?! No don't take the lurms!!!! wh....What is this!

ftfy

I tend to lurk in General. So maybe that's why i haven't seen that.

#53 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:13 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 26 August 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:


Depends on which section of the forum you hang out in. In General Discussion, it's all rah rah nerf Clans. If you hang out in Announcements, it's all rah rah nerf IS.


Its kinda neat to hear that. That means that the general population that only checks the site from announcements finds IS to be too powerful while only a portion of the general discussion forum sees Clans as OP.

#54 Y E O N N E

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:28 PM

View PostDakota1000, on 26 August 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:


Its kinda neat to hear that. That means that the general population that only checks the site from announcements finds IS to be too powerful while only a portion of the general discussion forum sees Clans as OP.


That doesn't mean they are right, though.

The IS are really good in the Light class. Some of the Mediums are excellent, too, like the Bushwhacker and the Assassin. They have a few gems in the Heavy class, too, mostly the Bounty Hunter and the Warhammer 6D/6R, but they are somewhat niche. For Assaults, if you aren't doing UAC/2 dakka then it's Clans all the way, and even for UAC/2 you are making the choice between firepower or mobility/hardpoints when looking at the DWF vs. Mauler. It's not clear-cut. For laser-vomit. The BLR is actually way undergunned when you are fighting Clan pilots who know how to aim; it is way too wide with crap twist angle and rate, and it only spits a piddly 50 damage where the enemy will nail you with at least the same and then spread another 30 across; more if your timing is unfortunate.

In a group, the ability to nuke targets down with Heavy lasers is just ridiculous. The IS may have the ability to tank, but when you are taking 70-point hits from three 'Mechs in succession, it means jack diddly squat. It will be interesting to see what happens in MRBC.

#55 Bigbacon

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:33 PM

Heat... You balance it with heat.

Negative effects based on heat, you.spike heat in that 71point alpha...have fun for the next 2 minutes while your mech gets sluggish as hell, things dont work well , weapons fail to fire, cooldowns get longer, ranges get shorter, because you saturated everything with so much heat so quickly.

This is whey need, heat needs to matter more, it needs to be something of focus and meaning. Right now there is no ill effects other than shut down which you can overrride. Override too long and you die but that it is.

Make heat management matter or your mech suffers greatly. If you can manage it well or build it slowly over time then you dont get issues.

Edited by Bigbacon, 26 August 2017 - 04:34 PM.


#56 Alan Davion

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 04:46 PM

View PostLupis Volk, on 26 August 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

Oh i will go there Davion Dezgra


Let's back off the name slinging before one of us says something we'll regret. I always try to be civil unless someone else is clearly not being civil.

View PostLupis Volk, on 26 August 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

because i was one a proud remember of the FRR. I left in disgust as many a member refused to better themselves Instead they because milk drinkers and cried and raged for the clans to be nerfed, while disguised as a cry for balance it was in fact a petty ploy that was bolstered by the false logic that Clan tech was the be all and end all, they ignored all what made their weapons better than Clan tech.


To be honest, I think PGI is really to blame for all the cries of "nerf this, nerf that", because we all know it's generally easier to nerf something than it is to buff something. Once PGI set that precedent the players clearly took it upon themselves to continue pushing that agenda. At that point it's up to PGI, and as we've seen more often than not they usually cave when people cry for a nerf on this weapon or that mech.

It is, or rather I should say, was, possible for there to be balance between IS and Clans, but that was back when the game was still in the early stages. Unfortunately because of some rather poor design choices on the part of PGI with regard to certain game mechanics early on, the chances of actual balance between IS and Clans at this point might as well be impossible, especially after the endless cycle of nerfs on literally both sides of the equation.

Of course the players themselves are not entirely blameless in this. Joke builds such as the 6 PPC Stalker and so on rather obviously forced PGI's hand on some changes they made, but then that is what happens when you can have multiples of the same weapon system.

In games like Battlefield, Star Wars Battlefront, Call of Duty, CS:GO, etc etc, where you can only have one active weapon, you're quite literally forced to adapt your game play to suit the strengths and weaknesses of the weapon you are using. You can modify those strengths and weaknesses to some degree, but they will always be there.

Now here in BT/MW/MWO, where you can customize to your hearts content, you can practically eliminate any weakness a mech or weapon might have, whether that was a natural flaw in the mech or weapon from the outset, or one forced by PGI for one reason or another, such as being forced by the use of joke builds like the aforementioned 6 PPC Stalker, or forced by general player outcry once they realize they can bully PGI into making changes to suit their gameplay style and gain an advantage.

Table Top BT rules have rules to prevent this kind of behavior, forcing you to roll dice for literally the smallest change you want to make, and if you roll badly, well your mech could have a serious flaw suddenly introduced which could seriously hamper your use of said mech.

View PostLupis Volk, on 26 August 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

These milk drinkers ignore their defensive quirks and only point out the Clan quirks that benefit their agenda while ignoring the fact that many a clan mech need to use all the pods of that variant to attain such quirks, where the IS mechs get theirs for free and are often better.


Remember though that PGI were forced to add those quirks because, at the start, Clan mechs were just as inherently overpowered in MWO as they were in Table Top when they were first introduced, the IS needed massive buffs and quirks just to be equal to the Clans, let alone more powerful than the Clans.

Again, this goes back to poor design choices made by PGI early on in the process of making the game, and then implementing the Clans. Most notably I'd say not fixing the heat system going from a 10 second long turn to a split-second speed FPS, which allowed the joke builds mentioned before.

Once they started down that dark path, it forever dominated their destiny.

If certain variables such as the heat system had been properly adjusted to meet the moment by moment needs of an FPS, its entirely possible that a lot of quirks such as heat generation would not be needed, and the quirks that would be needed, agility, armor, etc, could be manipulated much easier to keep both sides on equal footing.

Keep in mind that's just one variable that would have been needed to be adjusted, there could be a hundred other variables that could also contribute to the sorry state of affairs we find ourselves in now.

View PostLupis Volk, on 26 August 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

If only the IS strove to improve themselves, we'd have less cry baby threads like this one.


Honestly both sides could stand to improve themselves to some degree.

#57 MadRover

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 05:14 PM

View PostAlan Davion, on 26 August 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:



Honestly both sides could stand to improve themselves to some degree.


This I do agree with

View PostYeonne Greene, on 26 August 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:


That doesn't mean they are right, though.

The IS are really good in the Light class. Some of the Mediums are excellent, too, like the Bushwhacker and the Assassin. They have a few gems in the Heavy class, too, mostly the Bounty Hunter and the Warhammer 6D/6R, but they are somewhat niche. For Assaults, if you aren't doing UAC/2 dakka then it's Clans all the way, and even for UAC/2 you are making the choice between firepower or mobility/hardpoints when looking at the DWF vs. Mauler. It's not clear-cut. For laser-vomit. The BLR is actually way undergunned when you are fighting Clan pilots who know how to aim; it is way too wide with crap twist angle and rate, and it only spits a piddly 50 damage where the enemy will nail you with at least the same and then spread another 30 across; more if your timing is unfortunate.

In a group, the ability to nuke targets down with Heavy lasers is just ridiculous. The IS may have the ability to tank, but when you are taking 70-point hits from three 'Mechs in succession, it means jack diddly squat. It will be interesting to see what happens in MRBC.


Not unless you leg twist. IS mechs in the light to medium (or even heavy) tend to do well while the IS assault mech requires very good coordination and generally some good support. On the other hand, Clans, at least for me, are failing in the light to medium tonnage while having a good but limited selection of heavies and assaults. Also, most IS pilots think "oh hey I'm in a Inner Sphere. I can take more hits. Oh I'm dead what just happened?" and don't realize that this is a very team based game. Any mech can be good with the right pilot granted, but some mechs on both sides require a pretty good skill curve while others are pretty much cut and dry.

The isMAD which is my favorite InnerSphere mech. Fairly simple to pilot yet people still manage to screw it up while the Mad Cat MKII looks simple but it's not because it is one of the more fragile Clan assault mechs in the game since everything is pretty well defined and everyone already knows how to kill one.

Edited by MadRover, 26 August 2017 - 05:16 PM.


#58 Tarl Cabot

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 05:29 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 26 August 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

Ask them to buff ballistics and balance XL engines.

They'll nerf lasers, buff airstrikes and change mobility across the board.

Then say they did it to match player feedback.


Just to quote this to like it again. So true...

View PostJun Watarase, on 26 August 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

Any ideas?


But then Jun has not posted his point of view. Is it Clan, IS or both, and then provide some examples? And what are should be promoted/preferred? And is it long range, med range, short range or all of them?

#59 panzer1b

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 05:30 PM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 26 August 2017 - 04:28 PM, said:


In a group, the ability to nuke targets down with Heavy lasers is just ridiculous. The IS may have the ability to tank, but when you are taking 70-point hits from three 'Mechs in succession, it means jack diddly squat. It will be interesting to see what happens in MRBC.


This is pretty much spot on, and one of the main reasons why i almost exclusively bring high alfa builds into FW. DPS is simply never a huge deal with energy heavy mechs, and the ability to have a lance look at 1 target and make it go away in less then 2 seconds is worth it over a lance of mechs that just dump fire into a mech and cripple it just as it gets behind cover. This is why ive always viewed alfa as dominant over DPS, all it takes if for the enemy to poke out once, and if enough high alfa mechs hit them they are going to be near instantly crippled if they dont die in the process.

Not only that, but having a higher alfa then your victim means that you are almost always going to win a trade when you expose. In random pugs, i can take a HBR or EBJ or even the somewhat sluggish TBR and arm it with ~50 alfa strike (say 1 LPL and 6 ERML), and the only reason it works is that over 50% of the time noone actually returns fire at me when im poking out of cover. The instant i go up against a 12-man or just skilled players in general, every single time i expose my mech there is a very good probability i will take at least some fire (and against skilled enemies ECM will at best minimize how much you get focused, wont stop anyone from instantly seeing you). Thats why my mainstream competitive HBR build (which is usually 2 of my 4 mechs in dropdeck if not 3) is 2HLL and 6 ERML, i get range, i get to win trades against any conventional IS mech even if a third of it spreads to components i dont intend to hit, i get mobility, ecm, and it has just enough DPS to not be completely useless in a push (4.5ish with skills isnt that terrible). Yeah there is a easy way to counter this playstyle, push so fast that my lack of sustained DPS gets me to overheat, but even with higher level play, ive rarely encountered situations where the enemy pushes so quickly that i have no way to retreat or relocate while cooling off until i at least do my fair share of damage to the enemy team (and usually kill 1-2 targets).

Also worth mentioning is that every time you arent firing with a DPS oriented build is time you are wasting your damage potential, while a high alfa vomit mech can dump 100 or so damage downstream and then relocate to a better spot, using that time to both get a better angle of attack on the enemy, and to cool off. Primary reason i just arent huge with uacs or other facetanky weapons, half the time you are wasting potential damage...

#60 InspectorG

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Posted 26 August 2017 - 05:30 PM

View PostBigbacon, on 26 August 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

Heat... You balance it with heat.

Negative effects based on heat, you.spike heat in that 71point alpha...have fun for the next 2 minutes while your mech gets sluggish as hell, things dont work well , weapons fail to fire, cooldowns get longer, ranges get shorter, because you saturated everything with so much heat so quickly.

This is whey need, heat needs to matter more, it needs to be something of focus and meaning. Right now there is no ill effects other than shut down which you can overrride. Override too long and you die but that it is.

Make heat management matter or your mech suffers greatly. If you can manage it well or build it slowly over time then you dont get issues.


Yes. I agree, as someone who likes more 'sim' in their games.

But Pugs cant even look at their Radar, press W, communicate, aim, twist damage, not chase cookies, etc, etc, etc....

How are they gonna manage heat?





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