71 replies to this topic

[MovinTarget]

Charles Sennet, on 26 November 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Exactly. This is why I have been saying that at long ranges the ability to fire 3 LL without ghost heat vs Clans 2, is a major imbalance between good teams and why we have banned cERLL altogether in our unit drops. Clans simply have no comparable answer to the BLR-1G. Someone was arguing the SNV but you can still only fire 2/2/2 and have to expose a lot more to fire the arm mounted lasers. Not many people understand that clan range advantage is a bit of a myth in actual team fights.

Again, as long as IS pugs refuse to bring optimal mechs for a given scenario (of which the 1G is often a go-to mech), clans don't have much to worry about... except for organized 10-12 mans, but then they could beat you other ways too if you are not careful...

People complain about premades stomping pugs with meta, but they kinda have to bring meta b/c the never know when they'll face an equally competent premade...

[DragoWolf]

I understand where you are coming from. HOWEVER, clans outperform almost all
IS mechs, save a few old ones and the latest in the timeline. When it comes to meta,
The clans can just do it better. They have better range and better mobility. Those two will
Always let them surpass any IS mech mimicking the meta.

As for the role-playing...no one does it to win. It's for nostalgia and fun. A lot of the
IS Drop groups are veterans of battletech and love the nostalgia. Honestly, I see the
drops without equally sized units as the problem. IS isn't BAD, the clan groups are just
Filled with comp players who play to the meta because their performance is what they
are playing for. I've won with lots of "roleplayers" and I've experienced more wins with them.

We need to teach the newbies more than complain about this game. There is a real learning curve
for this game compared to COD. When it comes to mwo, there is a distinct split between who is new,
and who has played battletech for a while.

Comp players typically drop in full units and typically with the meta clan. The more we
teach the newer players, the more full units we'll have on both sides and the better games will be.
I've seen too many PUGS just not listening because they don't understand the game. Lrms are rare unless you're new, or actually using something worth the fire suppression ability.

We need more effort by the community and PGI on teaching proper mech building. It's a free for all of
Meta builds, and outdated meta. There's no indication of why things work. It's one thing to slap on the latest meta build, it's another to actually build for the meta. Don't forget that there was a dark time of
Lrms being the meta...

We just need to fix the learning curve because if we can train more players, I garuntee there won't be
Problems of faction steamrolling.

[MovinTarget]

As long as "fix the learning curve" is not "dumbing down the game" i am all for it. The challenge will always be to make the game accessible to newcomers but keep vets coming back. This was originally one of the reasons for FP, this is why there is still a warning stating that it is potentially much more challenging than qp.

Back when there was a real population, they could have had entrance requirements to prevent taters-n-yolos, but i guess they wanted it to be inclusive without any MM/ELO to match teams and that has been its achilles heel since introduction. The mode favors organized, experienced teams over pugs... overwhelmingly.

Edited by MovinTarget, 26 November 2017 - 03:06 PM.

[IL MECHWARRIOR]

Tereva, on 18 November 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

I am confused, if clanners have more range and alpha, why is "peek, alpha-strike, cover" a good strategy?
The clanner should win bc it has more alpha. Heat efficiency will not help the IS has the clan will stay under cover until he can shoot (well at least he should be;) ).

I got myself a Battlemaster 1G, and tried your way but it doesn't work well for me. I try to stay around 300/400m and use the arms as shield, but I go down fast.

What if there are 3 / 5 mechs in front while you are in a group of about the same size? ( << QP situation)
My usual way, was to break contact, circle a bit, and sneak shoot from one flank.
It doesn't work well with the BLR-1G. It is a bit slow for this (even with a XL400), and second lasers are not really sneaky
I tried trading, but you can take a lot of damage fast (even if you try to peek after the reds just shot)
How do you handle situations like that?




Wow
Operations, really ? Isn't "heat Gen" from the Firepower tree supposed to be more efficient than cool run or Heat Cont. ?
What exactly are you going after in the Ops tree?

Survival
I have my "usual round path"of 22 points focusing on armor hardening and Skeletal Density that I use even on my lights. Doesn't "more health" keep you longer in the fight?


Shoot straight

T.

peek alpha is a strategy cause on IS side you abuse better mounts, better duration, better agility, means less face time, more bugged terrain abuse.
blr 1g erll or, for mid range, 3 erml 3 ll all above the cockpit, use only on vertical peek maps like HPG or therra, engagement range 500-600 meters. you hardly get hit if you peek only with the cockpit.

in operations you take all the cool runs skipping 7 nodes, you skip only 1 heat containment.
cool run nodes are a buff to the DHS themselves, so basically you are adding more DHS

[Bishop Six]

Funny Thread, it looks like i am a potatoe according to Threadopener....

[MovinTarget]

Bishop Six, on 29 November 2017 - 04:39 AM, said:

Funny Thread, it looks like i am a potatoe according to Threadopener....

We are all taters to somebody else... if only in their heads...

[MortallyTransparentCupcake]

Simple fix. Make a Clanner brawl. Listen, and coordinate with your team.
don't have a "this build is sniper," or a "I am lrm boat so must stay back" mindset.
Sniper weapons still work at the back of the pack, and lrms still work within 200+ meters.
Share armour with your team. Focus targets.

[Y E O N N E]

Charles Sennet, on 26 November 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

Exactly. This is why I have been saying that at long ranges the ability to fire 3 LL without ghost heat vs Clans 2, is a major imbalance between good teams and why we have banned cERLL altogether in our unit drops. Clans simply have no comparable answer to the BLR-1G. Someone was arguing the SNV but you can still only fire 2/2/2 and have to expose a lot more to fire the arm mounted lasers. Not many people understand that clan range advantage is a bit of a myth in actual team fights.

*sigh*

That was me arguing it. Allow me to lay it out for you:



The max sustainable DPS of a 5x cERLL Supernova with 31 DHS, firing 3+2 and accounting for the ghost heat, is 4.95. With 30 DHS, it's 4.82 DPS.

The max sustainable DPS of a 5x isERLL Battlemaster with 20 DHS, firing 3+2 and avoiding ghost heat, is 3.94.

Moral of the story? You have so many DHS that you can eat that ghost heat and still push out more damage. It's 3 points less damage than 4x isERLL for only 7.2 points more heat at 8 tons and 5 slots less. A generous trade considering the infrastructure you can support it with. You have so much extra output, in fact, that you can drop a few DHS to get in a larger TC to put up to 30 meters between you and that Battlemaster (which already pushes it with a TC II: range on isERLL BLR-1G with a TC II is 870.75 m; cERLL with a TC I is 880.6 m, cERLL with a TC VI is 899.1 m).

Basically, if you are firing 2+2+2, you are doing it so very, very wrong because there is no practical reason to do so.

If you bump the cERLL ghost heat limit to 3, then the max sustainable DPS with 31 DHS goes up to 5.67, and with 30 it's 5.5.

That is beyond broken.

Even the duration argument is a red herring. The nominal rate of output of firing 3+2 for Clans is 32.06 DPS, IS is 31.13. Slight edge to Clans on the average. It's deceiving, though. If you break it out into actual damage output, the Clan 'Mech will spit out 49.9 points of damage in the same 1.435 seconds it takes the IS to get out all 45. You will always win on an open trade.

The literal only thing the Battlemaster has going for it is hardpoints and, regarding those it's like I said on Reddit: if you are one somewhat loose group fighting another, you will lose because the BLR can poke better. If you are a tight group fighting a loose group, you will win because you will all go full-expose and collectively boop the Battlemasters as they pop up, something your superior damage and sustained output allows you to do. If both teams are tight, you will still likely win if the IS go full ERLL trade unless their pilots are just better.

Hardpoint placement is literally the only thing in the Battlemaster's favor, and that's not enough. There is a reason every single comp team in the MWOWC finals and semi-finals, including the OP's (JGx) swapped over to Supernovas for their ERLL boat, and it's all of the above.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 07 December 2017 - 08:53 PM.

[ThunderKats]

Is this game still free2play?
I might need to redoo all my deck, I rarely play this laser-vomits build, maybe cause I love having fun trying other builds

[Charles Sennet]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 December 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

*sigh*

That was me arguing it. Allow me to lay it out for you:



The max sustainable DPS of a 5x cERLL Supernova with 31 DHS, firing 3+2 and accounting for the ghost heat, is 4.95. With 30 DHS, it's 4.82 DPS.

The max sustainable DPS of a 5x isERLL Battlemaster with 20 DHS, firing 3+2 and avoiding ghost heat, is 3.94.

Moral of the story? You have so many DHS that you can eat that ghost heat and still push out more damage. It's 3 points less damage than 4x isERLL for only 7.2 points more heat at 8 tons and 5 slots less. A generous trade considering the infrastructure you can support it with. You have so much extra output, in fact, that you can drop a few DHS to get in a larger TC to put up to 30 meters between you and that Battlemaster (which already pushes it with a TC II: range on isERLL BLR-1G with a TC II is 870.75 m; cERLL with a TC I is 880.6 m, cERLL with a TC VI is 899.1 m).

Basically, if you are firing 2+2+2, you are doing it so very, very wrong because there is no practical reason to do so.

If you bump the cERLL ghost heat limit to 3, then the max sustainable DPS with 31 DHS goes up to 5.67, and with 30 it's 5.5.

That is beyond broken.

Even the duration argument is a red herring. The nominal rate of output of firing 3+2 for Clans is 32.06 DPS, IS is 31.13. Slight edge to Clans on the average. It's deceiving, though. If you break it out into actual damage output, the Clan 'Mech will spit out 49.9 points of damage in the same 1.435 seconds it takes the IS to get out all 45. You will always win on an open trade.

The literal only thing the Battlemaster has going for it is hardpoints and, regarding those it's like I said on Reddit: if you are one somewhat loose group fighting another, you will lose because the BLR can poke better. If you are a tight group fighting a loose group, you will win because you will all go full-expose and collectively boop the Battlemasters as they pop up, something your superior damage and sustained output allows you to do. If both teams are tight, you will still likely win if the IS go full ERLL trade unless their pilots are just better.

Hardpoint placement is literally the only thing in the Battlemaster's favor, and that's not enough. There is a reason every single comp team in the MWOWC finals and semi-finals, including the OP's (JGx) swapped over to Supernovas for their ERLL boat, and it's all of the above.

I get all this and, if both mechs are in the open fully-exposed, sure it makes complete sense. in actual FP matches, however, the Battlemaster feels superior because it needs to expose very little of itself to get its damage in while the Supernova must expose a great deal more itself and for longer time to fire its 6ERLL. This means it dies quicker in an actual FP-style match. Maybe not in comp play but the practical edge in FP goes to the BLR.

If you want a math reason the two mechs are not balanced in FP how about this... the BLR is 85 tons in a 265 ton drop deck. That's 32% of the available tonnage in a deck. Conversely, the Supernova is 90 tons in a 240 ton drop deck. That's 38% of available tonnage. It costs Clanners significantly more available tonnage to take the 'balanced' option to FP than IS.

[Y E O N N E]

Charles Sennet, on 08 December 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

I get all this and, if both mechs are in the open fully-exposed, sure it makes complete sense. in actual FP matches, however, the Battlemaster feels superior because it needs to expose very little of itself to get its damage in while the Supernova must expose a great deal more itself and for longer time to fire its 6ERLL. This means it dies quicker in an actual FP-style match. Maybe not in comp play but the practical edge in FP goes to the BLR.

No, it doesn't. This is you and your team trying to poke back. Stop poking back. Control the field. Stay exposed together and you'll hit that BLR before his guns clear all the way. Bring a larger TC to increase your damage advantage. This isn't a comp vs FP thing, this is simply how you make best use of ERLL boats. If the BLRs had the range advantage, they should be doing the same thing. But they don't; if they try that, you just farm them from outside their optimal.

Also, it's merely a 0.28 second difference to get the damage out. That is accounted for by both human reaction time and the finite abilities if the 'Mech itself. It doesn't factor in unless there are duration quirks which...there aren't. Not on the 1G, 3M, or 2C.

Quote

If you want a math reason the two mechs are not balanced in FP how about this... the BLR is 85 tons in a 265 ton drop deck. That's 32% of the available tonnage in a deck. Conversely, the Supernova is 90 tons in a 240 ton drop deck. That's 38% of available tonnage. It costs Clanners significantly more available tonnage to take the 'balanced' option to FP than IS.

First, MAD-IIC works just as well. The NCT is also a very close surrogate, though you'll be down on armor.

Still, I agree with you here and even I said the same thing on Reddit. This is why tonnage balance is sloppy and PGI should actually fix the tech bases. But buffing the bar-none best extreme range weapon in the game to band-aid one specific case in a game mode not played by the majority of the population is silly. Even nerfing the 1G would be silly, since outside this one niche it is inferior (and you'd just shift your complaints over to the STK-5S anyway).

In the interim between now and PGI getting a real clue (could be awhile), you have the above directive on gaming range and damage advantages with full expose, or tankng a few hits to get to <600 meters where Clans absolutely maul the IS. Given IS output limits, clan speed, and cover (even on Boreal)...not too hard. You can also use the UAC/2 option. The velocity is competitive with the hitscan and so is the burst damage. Range is superior. MX-90s are the counter to Supernovas, there is no reason that can't work going the other way.

[Appogee]

Charles Sennet, on 08 December 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

It costs Clanners significantly more available tonnage to take the 'balanced' option to FP than IS.

Makes no difference when Clan can just balance it out with a pair of Crit Lynxes or MG Boat ACHs that wreck IS's Heavies with impunity.

Edited by Appogee, 08 December 2017 - 01:44 PM.

[Damnedtroll]

I'm not playing FP a lot, It's quite fun to play with a somewhat coordinated team that support teammate and work to win and not setting a score.

One of the best way to lose is continuing a negative trading war at long range while camping. Most of the game i lost was because of that. Team just started to camp and trading shot at long range while losing on trade and continuing that without realizing until oblivion. Whichever you are on Clan or IS side, it's the same problem: not changing tactics when you start losing on trading.

More experienced pilots in well coordinated unit avoid that, and they win more.

Edited by Damnedtroll, 08 December 2017 - 01:47 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Charles Sennet, on 08 December 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

I get all this and, if both mechs are in the open fully-exposed, sure it makes complete sense. in actual FP matches, however, the Battlemaster feels superior because it needs to expose very little of itself to get its damage in while the Supernova must expose a great deal more itself and for longer time to fire its 6ERLL. This means it dies quicker in an actual FP-style match. Maybe not in comp play but the practical edge in FP goes to the BLR.

If you want a math reason the two mechs are not balanced in FP how about this... the BLR is 85 tons in a 265 ton drop deck. That's 32% of the available tonnage in a deck. Conversely, the Supernova is 90 tons in a 240 ton drop deck. That's 38% of available tonnage. It costs Clanners significantly more available tonnage to take the 'balanced' option to FP than IS.

A huge failing I see in Clan pilots trying to range trade is fading *when they don't have to*. You want to be there, in a line, waiting when the other team pops up. Your longer burn issue is eliminated because you start it first - again, we're talking fractions of a second difference anyway. Less than the blink of an eye - literally.

Trade together, at the same time and if need be draw a shot and fade, then immediately pop back up and wait - so when the other guy comes up two of you are shooting before his lasers crest.

Finally, quit trying to range trade if you're losing at it. Successful range trading takes just as much balls as pushing and really, really good timing. If you're not winning that... then stop. Play brawl and learn to be aggressive. Or play mid-range laservomit and just get closer. Take HLLs and CERMLs to 500m and you'll utterly destroy the BLRs even with bad trade timing because you're 50% more damage being put out each trade.

There's a ton of options, if you're failing to win the range trade (which has been proven to be not just possible but the expected outcome IS vs Clans both in Comp and group queue and even FW by the teams who are actually good at range trading) then quit trying to do it.

Repeating a strategy you fail at is also a bad call. FW is the mode where you absolutely can take brawl decks every match and mode. Or mid-range poke. The BLR is old news and not a serious threat to a team with even moderate coordination. Especially wave 1 on anything but Siege defense Clans should be taking fast mechs that are mid to brawl because that's where Clans utterly dominate the tonnage trade. Then finish with the Crit Lynx or LMG Cheetah. Both dominate in lights by a huge, huge range.

[K O Z A K]

MischiefSC, on 08 December 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Crit Lynx or LMG Cheetah. Both dominate in lights by a huge, huge range.

Crit Lynxes lose arms where almost all their firepower is faster than you can blink. Their main advantage is their weight for FW with tonnage limited clan deck. Chetas are ok

MPL wolfhound is probably the best light in the game currently

[MovinTarget]

Hazeclaw, on 08 December 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

Crit Lynxes lose arms where almost all their firepower is faster than you can blink. Their main advantage is their weight for FW with tonnage limited clan deck. Chetas are ok

MPL wolfhound is probably the best light in the game currently

The trick with the crit lynch & Co. is to never stop moving... also mix in some ecm to mitigate streaks. together it's pretty devastating.

[K O Z A K]

MovinTarget, on 08 December 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

The trick with the crit lynch & Co. is to never stop moving... also mix in some ecm to mitigate streaks. together it's pretty devastating.

well that's true for all lights. Honestly I haven't encountered very many streaks in invasion at all, maybe just my experience. But often when it gets to the final wave and you have crit lynxes facing bushies and assassins, the srms and medium lasers do tend to take the arms off really fast. Just the size of the arms means they soak up a lot of the damage from multiple directions

I mean in most drops this doesn't even really matter since everything is usually decided by 4th wave

[Y E O N N E]

MovinTarget, on 08 December 2017 - 02:37 PM, said:

The trick with the crit lynch &amp; Co. is to never stop moving... also mix in some ecm to mitigate streaks. together it's pretty devastating.

Nah, the trick with the MLX in particular is to keep your front toward the target and mix in short hops to spread damage to everything. From the flanks, it's goodbye arms.

The Crit Lynx isn't actually that great in a brawl. It's excellent for annihilating a single target, where it controls the entire engagement, but in a hairball you can't keep fire off those flanks so you tend to get shredded.

[Charles Sennet]

Appogee, on 08 December 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Makes no difference when Clan can just balance it out with a pair of Crit Lynxes or MG Boat ACHs that wreck IS's Heavies with impunity.

Certainly not as efficiently as the demi-god-like Assassin can right now.

[Charles Sennet]

MischiefSC, on 08 December 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

A huge failing I see in Clan pilots trying to range trade is fading *when they don't have to*. You want to be there, in a line, waiting when the other team pops up. Your longer burn issue is eliminated because you start it first - again, we're talking fractions of a second difference anyway. Less than the blink of an eye - literally.

Trade together, at the same time and if need be draw a shot and fade, then immediately pop back up and wait - so when the other guy comes up two of you are shooting before his lasers crest.

Finally, quit trying to range trade if you're losing at it. Successful range trading takes just as much balls as pushing and really, really good timing. If you're not winning that... then stop. Play brawl and learn to be aggressive. Or play mid-range laservomit and just get closer. Take HLLs and CERMLs to 500m and you'll utterly destroy the BLRs even with bad trade timing because you're 50% more damage being put out each trade.

There's a ton of options, if you're failing to win the range trade (which has been proven to be not just possible but the expected outcome IS vs Clans both in Comp and group queue and even FW by the teams who are actually good at range trading) then quit trying to do it.

Repeating a strategy you fail at is also a bad call. FW is the mode where you absolutely can take brawl decks every match and mode. Or mid-range poke. The BLR is old news and not a serious threat to a team with even moderate coordination. Especially wave 1 on anything but Siege defense Clans should be taking fast mechs that are mid to brawl because that's where Clans utterly dominate the tonnage trade. Then finish with the Crit Lynx or LMG Cheetah. Both dominate in lights by a huge, huge range.

I totally understand the concept--we call it the 'max-show'. We have tried it versus teams like EVIL and it is very difficult to pull off in reality. They will usually not max show. Instead they will fire-cover-move and repeat. Max show is not a winning strategy because, again, they will get in their full damage return to cover before you can get in your damage. No Clan mech can win a long range trade versus the BLR unless it sacrifices something else important such as tankability or overall damage output (thinking of the Summoner).

The bigger problem FP balance range-wise is at short range engagements, which many FP modes force, and which objectively favors IS mechs (what they're naturally better at). Add to this the extra 300 tons in drop decks and we have a big balance problem.

Also, some (of the loud) IS players say CW tech did nothing for the IS side when I am seeing a lot new tech on the field and in use by good teams. LFE's? Check. Double heavy gauss on hot maps? Check. ERML's. Tons. Even MRM's which I wish Clans had any sort of equivalency. The list goes on... Most durable tank in the game (ANH)? Check. Lightest mech in the game? Checked for a long time and we have to wait another 6 weeks before that's finally equalized. Best skirmisher in the game? Checked hard with the god-like Assassin.

Not saying IS should have some tonnage advantage in FP. Just saying it should be less than 300 tons. Perhaps back to 120 ton advantage which were it was sometime before CW tech came out.
I totally understand the concept--we call it the 'max-show'. We have tried it versus teams like EVIL and it is very difficult to pull off in reality. They will usually not max show. Instead they will fire-cover-move and repeat. Max show is not a winning strategy because, again, they will get in their full damage return to cover before you can get in your damage. No Clan mech can win a long range trade versus the BLR unless it sacrifices something else important such as tankability or overall damage output (thinking of the Summoner).

The bigger problem FP balance range-wise is at short range engagements, which many FP modes force, and which objectively favors IS mechs (what they're naturally better at). Add to this the extra 300 tons in drop decks and we have a big balance problem.

Also, some (of the loud) IS players say CW tech did nothing for the IS side when I am seeing a lot new tech on the field and in use by good teams. LFE's? Check. Double heavy gauss on hot maps? Check. ERML's. Tons. Even MRM's which I wish Clans had any sort of equivalency. The list goes on... Most durable tank in the game (ANH)? Check. Lightest mech in the game? Checked for a long time and we have to wait another 6 weeks before that's finally equalized. Best skirmisher in the game? Checked hard with the god-like Assassin.

Not saying IS should have some tonnage advantage in FP. Just saying it should be less than 300 tons. Perhaps back to 10 ton advantage which were it was sometime before CW tech came out.