68 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

Currently, our solo kill as a metric does not really accurately measure the efficiency of the kill. An LRM boat could very well pepper an enemy, damage spread around, and kill it gaining solo kill, but so does an accurate shot on the CT with less damage -- much more efficient kill.

An enemy peppered with LRMs and lived, only to be killed by an efficient player could. But a solo kill won't be achieved if enemy damage is padded by the LRM user.

Comes the "Efficient Kill", this also uses the metric of time in addition of damage. The faster you disposed of an enemy, the more efficient you are. A damage spread around the mech would take more time than other wise coring or head-shotting it out, or XL check.

If you are a player with good aim, you should hit right? That means you should minimize your Time to Kill. Missed shots, or spread damage increase time to kill, so high amount of time-to-kill should mean it's less efficient.

It goes like this:

Most Efficient Damage = Percentage of your total damage dealt to the enemy, in relation to the CT armor and structure, or HD armor and structure for a head-shot, or ST If equipped with an IS XL, with respect to the direction of fire -- such as if rear CT kill then it would be Rear CT armor + Structure. Must be above 50%.

Least Time to Kill = Cumulative amount of time engaged with the enemy battlemech / total amount of time the engaged battlemech is alive. Each enemy player gets their own. Less is better.

Efficient Kill = Least Time to Kill + Most Efficient Damage + Killing Blow

Weakness:
- Excessive alphas can throw the metric off. As perhaps one-shotting a locust with so much SRMs to oblivion would prevent Most-Efficient-Damage, despite just a single alpha. If you have a way around this, it would be nice to hear.
- People can simply instant-engage, and no longer engage until such time for the kill, locking the Least Time to Kill away.

What do you think?

EDIT:

Forgot the Killing Blow part.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 12 September 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[El Bandito]

Why do you hate LRM players? Their job is literally to sandblast the enemy, and occasionally get a kill. DF players already get far more kills than LRM boats, due tot he nature of their weapon system. Let lurmers have their KMDD.

[Kiiyor]

El Bandito, on 08 September 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

Why do you hate LRM players? Their job is literally to sandblast the enemy, and occasionally get a kill. DF players already get far more kills than LRM boats, due tot he nature of their weapon system. Let lurmers have their KMDD.

Maybe we can have both.



I've always liked the idea of it, and even track my own efficiency in stats. Also, from SCIENCE i've done in the past, efficiency is at it's highest for light mechs, and lowest for assaults.

Maybe it's a way to reward lighter mechs, while letting assaults keep their obscene damage bonuses.

[Mechwarrrior8055091]

I agree with u, and that what i aways doing.

Take longer to kill a mech just put yourself in danger, exposure your weakness to enemy,
I always aim at enemy weakness,
same mech same build but different pilot, same time the weakness is different.
My 1st shoot is testing where is enemy weakness point,
testing what he did in the skill tree,
testing how he useing terrain,
and how is the pilot fighting skill,
Best way is killed the enemy before he get support
So always Least Time to Kill in solo the best

( I more enjoy 1 vs 3 and find their weakness then kill them all

Edited by Mechwarrrior8055091, 08 September 2017 - 02:33 AM.

[Vadhalla]

Maybe I'm wrong isn't that the definition a pro troll player Mechwarrior8055091?

OMG you do have skill!

[Vanadium19]

And sometimes it's also important to put away your hunger for kills when for example you leg an enemy assault in a light. Leave him alone it's alsmost equal as you killed him for team.

[Jun Watarase]

What annoys me about the reward system is how much emphasis is placed on getting solo kills which requires both killing blow + most damage done. There is a massive disparity in rewards between just getting most damage done and getting solo kill, which automatically comes with killing blow, most damage done and component destroyed. Im fairly certain the brawling reward only triggers on killing blows as well.

Its very annoying when you dump 3 or 4 alphas into some assault's CT, am about to finish him off with the next shot, and one of your teammates runs infront of you and pokes his red CT with some lasers to get the killing blow. You get a fraction of the rewards despite doing most of the work.

IMHO solo kill should go straight to whoever did the most damage. Killing blow specific stuff should be removed since its either luck dependant or can be exploited by timing kill shots.

[Vellron2005]

The6thMessenger, on 08 September 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

Currently, our solo kill as a metric does not really accurately measure the efficiency of the kill. An LRM boat could very well pepper an enemy, damage spread around, and kill it gaining solo kill, but so does an accurate shot on the CT with less damage -- much more efficient kill.

An enemy peppered with LRMs and lived, only to be killed by an efficient player could. But a solo kill won't be achieved if enemy damage is padded by the LRM user.

Comes the "Efficient Kill", this also uses the metric of time in addition of damage. The faster you disposed of an enemy, the more efficient you are. A damage spread around the mech would take more time than other wise coring or head-shotting it out, or XL check.

If you are a player with good aim, you should hit right? That means you should minimize your Time to Kill. Missed shots, or spread damage increase time to kill, so high amount of time-to-kill should mean it's less efficient.

It goes like this:

Most Efficient Damage = Percentage of your total damage dealt to the enemy, in relation to the CT armor and structure, or HD armor and structure for a head-shot, or ST If equipped with an IS XL, with respect to the direction of fire -- such as if rear CT kill then it would be Rear CT armor + Structure.

Least Time to Kill = Cumulative amount of time engaged with the enemy battlemech / total amount of time the engaged battlemech is alive. Each enemy player gets their own. Less is better.

Efficient Kill = Least Time to Kill + Most Efficient Damage

Weakness:
- Excessive alphas can throw the metric off. As perhaps one-shotting a locust with so much SRMs to oblivion would prevent Most-Efficient-Damage, despite just a single alpha. If you have a way around this, it would be nice to hear.

What do you think?

#Triggered

You have got to be kidding me.. Efficient kill? Really?!

So basically, what you're suggesting is that It's not enough for you to get the kill.. not enough to get the KMDD.. becouse LRM users can get those too.. so to feel your e-peen engorged, you want your gauss-padded laservomit inducing glory kill to be valued more?

I.. just... I can't even...

In my opinion, we have all the kill glory we need:

- Killing blow (as in ,yaay for you, you took the target down)
- Kill most damage dealt / KMDD (as in, I pumped that mech so full of lead, did most of the work, I should get some reckognition)
- Solo kill - You took the target down while noone else was shooting at it.. good job for no teamwork (should be rewarded to taking the target down alone, without anyone else damaging it)

So your efficient kill is literally just an e-peen showoff..

Plus, with the variety of builds, I don't think there's any possible way to track if taking down the target was the most efficient way of doing so.. and even if there were, it would only promote the insta-kill GaussPPc cheeze meta.. People would strive for one-shot kills... and guess what.. MWO is NOT COD.

So.. just...

NO.

Also.. This:

El Bandito, on 08 September 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

Why do you hate LRM players? Their job is literally to sandblast the enemy, and occasionally get a kill. DF players already get far more kills than LRM boats, due tot he nature of their weapon system. Let lurmers have their KMDD.

P.S.

I find the very term "efficient kill" offensive, since in implies some kills are better than others while actually stating that killing with direct fire weapons is more worthy than killing with LRMs.. A kill is a kill.

So let me quote Dominic Toretto here, I think it applies:

"It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning."

Edited by Vellron2005, 08 September 2017 - 05:32 AM.

[Paigan]

That "time" part is unnecessarily complicated.

What counts is the effective damage dealt to a Mech until it is killed, no matter the time frame.
- Damage that leads to the kill (including item, structure and armor HP of the deciding component)
- Damage that destroys an item or a component (weakening the enemy Mech, reducing its performance)

Everything else, for example spraying 200 damage over arm and leg armor, while the kill happened via destroying the CT, is neglible for the outcome and should therefore not yield any score.
That also applies to the last 0.1 damage that constitutes the actual killing blow. That is not an honorable performance. The performance was to work the enemy mech down to that point. The actual killing blow could even come from an single inftantry, luckily scratching away the last 0.1 HP with this assault rifle. Irrelevant.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Paigan, on 08 September 2017 - 05:26 AM, said:

That "time" part is unnecessarily complicated.

What counts is the effective damage dealt to a Mech until it is killed, no matter the time frame.
- Damage that leads to the kill (including item, structure and armor HP of the deciding component)
- Damage that destroys an item or a component (weakening the enemy Mech, reducing its performance)

Everything else, for example spraying 200 damage over arm and leg armor, while the kill happened via destroying the CT, is neglible for the outcome and should therefore not yield any score.
That also applies to the last 0.1 damage that constitutes the actual killing blow. That is not an honorable performance. The performance was to work the enemy mech down to that point. The actual killing blow could even come from an single inftantry, luckily scratching away the last 0.1 HP with this assault rifle. Irrelevant.

Was just about to write something like this. Generally agree.

There is a problem with the killing blow, though.

...sometimes it's just luck or farming, like when lone surrounded enemy is being pounded by 6 mechs. Whoever kills it - doesn't matter to the game, he's dead anyway. Killing blow is no achievement in that situation (in terms of contributing to the win)

...bah, killing blow may even be detrimental, like when you chase a stick or otherwise unarmed mech to finish it off instead of supporting your team with fighting the real threats.

...but sometimes it's extremely important, like when the enemy shares armor effectively and have quite a few cored but still fully armed mechs that shoot from behind fresh mechs. These guys can still hurt your team real bad if somebody won't risk reaching through or flanking the front line to finish them. Finishing cored mechs shooting from behind fresh mechs that tank damage, even for the price of getting two alphas in your face instead of one, is quite an achievement, as it actually contributes to the win a lot. In this case a killing blow on that cored enemy may be the difference between winning and loosing the match.

So the problem with killing blow is that it may mean nothing and everything, depending on the situation on the battlefield.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 08 September 2017 - 05:56 AM.

[Trissila]

Vellron2005, on 08 September 2017 - 05:22 AM, said:

I find the very term "efficient kill" offensive, since in implies some kills are better than others while actually stating that killing with direct fire weapons is more worthy than killing with LRMs.. A kill is a kill.

So let me quote Dominic Toretto here, I think it applies:

"It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning's winning."

Spending five minutes tickling a heavy mech until it finally falls -- meanwhile it's doing damage to your team the whole time, AND the enemy team has fewer targets to shoot at because you're sitting back behind a hill somewhere and refusing to share armor -- is absolutely a worse kill than getting the job done quicker and while increasing the number of targets the enemy has to worry about.

People don't hate lurmboats because they use LRMs. They hate lurmboats because lurmboats are part and parcel with a playstyle that shifts all of the risk onto teammates and does effectively nothing to help them.

LRMs as supplemental weapon systems to get in a bit of extra damage in a few situations where you either can't do direct damage or it's not safe to do so? Sure, fine.

LRMs as a primary weapon system to the exclusion of any of the more effective systems, being a horribly inefficient artillery piece that makes everyone else's job harder? Not fine.

I just feel bad for the enemy team every time I roll up on a lurmboat in my Timberwolf and there is absolutely nothing he can do to stop me. He just sits there, hopelessly shining his TAG light at me (if he even has that) and regretting his life choices while I tear him apart.

The difference? I brought 6 medium lasers to go with my twin LRM10 racks. He dropped the lasers to fit in a few more useless tubes.

[Davegt27]

I only figured out the dying part
I got that down pat

since the death of ELO I went from .92 down to .81
a spike up to .82 with the Boom hammer and then quickly back to .81 K/D

some of us spend 95% of our time trying to figure out the weapons/combo
PGI doesn't have under the nerf bat

[PurpleNinja]

Wrong game.

If you perform a perfect scout match, gathering all the intel and being extracted without any engagement, you'll have a worse match score and rewards than losing the same game while fighting.

This game is not about objectives and efficiency, it's about dealing as much damage as possible.

[LordNothing]

damage to kill seems a better metric. but its hard to account for damage done by others. its like that out of range long shot with a weapon that will barely do 2 damage at the range you are using it at and you get a kill with it the first time you shoot that mech. do i really deserve extra points for that? the guy who opened up that mech is as much responsible for its demise as you are, if not more so. way we have it now the former gets the kmdd and the latter the killing blow, all other players who scratched it get assists. efficiency rating would mostly be viable on the solo kills only. but when you do that you get the killing blow, the kmdd, and the solo kill, you already get tons of bonuses there.

not to say it would be impossible, it would just be really convoluted. you can base it on fractional damage. find the percentage of damage that the killing player did to the mech and multiply that by your efficiency bonus would be pretty straight forward. efficiently kill 60% of a mech get 60% of the bonus. bonus might be total damage sink capability of the mech (all armor and structure added together) divided by the total amount of damage that went in. then give efficiency bonuses to all players who contributed to the kill, times the fraction of the kill that they are responsible for.

this might have the opposite effect of what was intended though. take a 100 damage kill scenario one player did 99% of the damage, but did so with lerms leaving a section cherry but loosing lock before completing the kill. a light, seeing an opening, charged for the hole and fired a laser getting a kill but only putting in 1% of the damage. in this scenario the lerm boat gets the lions share despite being the least efficient contributor to the kill. of course the light was a kill stealin' glory hog securing member of the team and had he not taken the opportunity to get that kill, that mech may have retreated to the rear to support his other mechs to a victory. so there are loopholes to exploit. and thats what causes all the convolution as you have to trace out all the edge cases.

[Brain Cancer]

Oh, I'd just -love- giving that vulture even more rewards for coring out the guy I bludgeoned to a pulp with missile fire, frequently because he waited for me to tear it down first? Not.

And it's not even LRMs. ATMs, too. Or even Streaks. Heck, all the system records on leaderboards is "killing shots" vs "shots that killed me".

How about we get KMDDs on the stat listings before "efficient" kills that frequently don't happen unless someone else bullied the target to shreds first?

(That being said, I generally don't mind if it's a straight kill vs. a KMDD, except for how frequently people harp on "ineffective" me without 3-4 kill tally.)

[The6thMessenger]

My bad, forgot "Killing Blow".

[Anhydrite]

I had a really efficient kill recently. Would love some bonus for it. I grazed a friendly with a med laser and scored a Team Kill. Did 2 points of team damage. Pretty efficient I think.

[Razorfish]

I guess I am lost.

The current pin point laser vomit meta is not enough, now you want more experience and credits for using it?

[OmniFail]

Every time a LRM60 mech hits a mech with two volleys it removes a weight class from the target mech. It turns Assaults into Heavies. Heavies into Mediums. Mediums into Lights and Lights into dust.

Sorry to hear about your numbers bro. I'm sure if you really think about it some more you will be able to spin them in such a way that you appear to be as efficient as a lurm boat.

Edited by OmniFail, 08 September 2017 - 06:27 PM.

[GA1NAX]

Efficient Kill - suddenly pointed WHM-6D with 4HML's and have a... HEADSHOT. Efficient? Yes. Skillful? Doubt.