105 replies to this topic

[Savage Wolf]

Power Draw... just saying... still haven't seen a single problem with Ghost Heat that couldn't be fixed with it.

[ACH75]

McHoshi, on 14 September 2017 - 12:35 AM, said:

The Problem is not and will never be the high alphas...
The Problem is and will always stay the lurm potatoes standing in the back and not sharing armor!

Brawl your Way through... and win! ( W Key is for WIN ).

LRM's are part of the game, and if not abused is just fine like all other weapons...

Assaults now sucks badly in agility, especially 100tons and sharing that armor is almost useless if you can core
them so fast as it is now... especially if you let them die backwrecked by enemy lights!

Edited by ACH75, 14 September 2017 - 12:49 AM.

[The Basilisk]

The problem with high alphas and boating is a bit more subtile than most tend to picture it.

HGauss Rifle f.e.
A weapon that costs wooping 18T 11 slots has only 180m with max dmg (25dp) and a reload time of 4 seconds as well as a charge up time of...much too long while having a holding time of much too short and you need a heavy mech like the Catapult to field this with any hope on success due to its ammo requirements.

A Hunchback with his laser Hump could mount 6MPLs on his shoulder for wooping 36dmg at 12T and 6 slots and 2.8s cooldown no ammo requirements 220m range and still enough room for heatsinks and stuff.

Appart from the obvious advantages that are only poorly ofset by dmg over time and heat the laser weapon system acts as exactly this: ONE WEAPONSYSTEM not as 6 independent weapons but as one system.
And there is the problem.

So a single weapon system that is more complicated to utilize as a conjunction of 6 weapon systems ?
Hillarious.

What actually is needed to adress the boating of smal weapons that got hillariously wrong translated from TT Battletech is some kind of mechanic to separate those weapons or giving a diminishing return for boating a large number of them.

One idea of PGI was Laser targeting or laser syncing. Sadly this idea has been dropped.
The idea was that lasers need time to sync to be focused on target before firing. Additionaly this syncing was only possible if a positive target lock on the enemy could be acheaved.
The higher the "tubecount" the longer the sync time.

Edited by The Basilisk, 14 September 2017 - 12:59 AM.

[Shadowomega1]

As I said in another thread. Reduces complication and increases complexity with depth as you need to be more tactful in combat. Yet people didn't take it to well, likely due to it would destroy their poke/vomit builds and touched everything, not just laser.

https://mwomercs.com...rf-laser-vomit/

Shadowomega1, on 27 August 2017 - 03:15 PM, said:

Want to balance this game in 3 moves?

First Move
Heat cap to 35, Heat Sink/Double Heat Sink no longer add to heat cap, no skills that add to heat cap; and remove ghost heat.

Second Move
All heat sinks and double heat sinks have their cooling rate doubled. Mechs with min of 10 engine heat sinks (or whatever the engine has + external heat sinks to make up the min value of 10) see a heat dissipation reduction.

Third move, excessive heat penalties.
When a mech gets around 70%/24.5 points or above of heat it starts seeing reduction to its movement speed (Top speed, acceleration, Torso Twist speed, and Turn speeds)

Mechs that stay above 70% heat for more than 24 seconds run the risk of causing their ammo to cook off.

If the heat it is 80%/28 points or above of heat the radar/Target Data starts to see static and target locks take longer and easier to lose the lock, energy/Non burst ballistic/Missile weapons take more time to recharge/reload, Ultra Class AC/Roterty AC weapons see increased jam chances and jam bar fill quicker. Also Increased reduction to its movement speed (Top speed, acceleration, Torso Twist speed, and Turn speeds)

Mechs that stay above 80% for more than 16 seconds heat run the risk of causing their ammo to cook off.

If the heat is 90%/31.5 points or above of heat the radar and target data become completely obscured by Static, getting weapons lock/holding locks are extremely difficult, energy/Non burst ballistic/Missile weapons take even more time to recharge/reload, Ultra Class AC/Roterty AC weapons are guaranteed to jam. Even further reduction to its movement speed (Top speed, acceleration, Torso Twist speed, and Turn speeds)

Mechs that Stay Above 90% heat for more than 8 seconds are going to have their ammo cook off.

Mechs that Exceed the heat limit by as much as 8 points will see an instant death state.

[Burning2nd]

Ive being killed by a locust has hurt your butt... Im sorry... taken away one of my only 2 weapons, still will not secure your survival

[Black Ivan]

Definitly the best analyses and summation of it all and potential solution. I definitly agree that it is wrong that 6 weapons or more behave like 1 heavier

[ACH75]

Shadowomega1, on 14 September 2017 - 01:01 AM, said:

As I said in another thread. Reduces complication and increases complexity with depth as you need to be more tactful in combat. Yet people didn't take it to well, likely due to it would destroy their poke/vomit builds and touched everything, not just laser.

https://mwomercs.com...rf-laser-vomit/

Feels like "Suicide Warrior Online" to me

Too much complicated

[MagicIndex]

ACH75, on 13 September 2017 - 08:51 PM, said:

Very Simple...

Not allowing anymore MIXED type lasers fire groups!

This will force People to return at mixed weapon types Loadouts in many cases...

Maybe Alphas still possibles but at high penalties like almost entirely filling the heat bar.

No (throw OP off-the-board from dropship airlock into the deep space)

Edited by MagicIndex, 14 September 2017 - 01:18 AM.

[IL MECHWARRIOR]

one of the worst ideas i have ever seen.

lasers are ok, it is ballistics that need a serious buff

[TheFallOfTheReaper]

Omfg all the reeeee in this one is hillarious. His idea has "-1" merit, its callled ghost heat links?

[Bigbacon]

heat, more heat, ghost heat across all weapons. make it based on how mant you fire at one time, etc etcetc...

something is better than making it even worse.

[Luminis]

How bout making hit locations random with a chance to miss, regardless of aim? Oh, and make the game turn based so reaction time and stuff isn't important!

[Luminis]

Jun Watarase, on 14 September 2017 - 12:23 AM, said:

Completely agree. Clan small lasers/ML have ghost heat together for a reason.

It is just dumb that you can alpha large/med lasers together for a easy 50+ point hitscan alpha. And 50 is the lower end of the laser vomit scale.

We need more mixed builds, rather than laser vomit/UAC spam depending on how hot the map is.

On cold/neutral maps almost every mech in the first three waves is laser vomit. That is just sad. Its like playing chess and everyone just spams queens, although people occasionally bring rooks.

But more needs to be done to discourage laser vomit because people still bring 5x LPL/ERLL at the moment, and that already has ghost heat.

Good luck convincing PGI to lift a finger though.

Y'know, we had a build that was competitive with laser vomit and saw pay.

Thanks to incessant whining, it got GH slapped onto it, ensuring that there's less competition for laser vomit.

The lesson to learn here is that nerfing stuff into the ground doesn't ensure everyone's running different builds. It just shifts the meta to the next best thing that's gonna get boated. And it's pretty predictable, too; go ahead and limit alphas to, dunno, 30 points and watch everyone run dakka Assaults (which we'll see whining about eventually because "90% of Mechs are dakka PGI pls fix").

[The6thMessenger]

What's up with the 15 likes on my reply?



I was super cereal, lets ruin the game more!

Edited by The6thMessenger, 14 September 2017 - 06:07 AM.

[Trissila]

The Basilisk, on 14 September 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

Appart from the obvious advantages that are only poorly ofset by dmg over time and heat the laser weapon system acts as exactly this: ONE WEAPONSYSTEM not as 6 independent weapons but as one system.
And there is the problem.

Heat to fire an HGauss: 2
Heat to fire 6 MPLs: 22.8

That's over 11 times as much heat. For nowhere near that much extra damage, even assuming a perfectly-tracked hit which is by no means guaranteed.

Now, if you want to argue that it's easy to manage heat, that's fair, but that's more a factor of how the game ends up being played due to numerous factors. Fact is, the HGauss is a close-range weapon while the MPL cluster is a more long-range solution. When the MPL boat has time to cool down in between shots, it'll perform much better. But put that HGauss in toe-to-toe range and suddenly those MPLs aren't looking so good. That faster cooldown doesn't help you when you're at 80% heat and all your lasers are ready to fire, but doing so will shut you down, incur heat damage, and doom you -- meanwhile the HGauss is firing every cooldown no problem.

We don't need even more heat to make lasers even more terrible at close range. They already get soundly defeated by cooler-running solutions at those ranges. It's just that The Way The Game Is Played heavily favors medium- to long-range engagement where hot-running builds have time to cool off in between shots, and screwing them even harder on heat isn't going to change that reality.

[Dread Render]

What load-out do you like OP?
okay... lets figure out how to disallow it. LOL

Laser boats have been a valid part of Mechwarrior since day one.
In fact some variants standard layout is a laser boat like the Catapult J.
Got over it.
Move along, Move along.

[Daurock]

Luminis, on 14 September 2017 - 05:12 AM, said:

The lesson to learn here is that nerfing stuff into the ground doesn't ensure everyone's running different builds. It just shifts the meta to the next best thing that's gonna get boated. And it's pretty predictable, too; go ahead and limit alphas to, dunno, 30 points and watch everyone run dakka Assaults (which we'll see whining about eventually because "90% of Mechs are dakka PGI pls fix").

The Question is, what DOES insure that people play varied builds. Right now, At least for clan side, varied builds pretty much don't exist. GaussVomit, LaserVomit, or Get lost. IS side, its at least somewhat more varied. (I suspect this is at least partially due to the fact that it's extremely hard to reasonably get lasers above 50 or so Alpha IS side.) LaserVomit Battlemasters and Dakka Maulers are Both actually usable, and that's a good thing.

I do think that a little bit of a lowering of laser alpha is probably due. I wouldn't link the large and medium tables, but I probably would consider lowering the GH limit for a few problem weapons here and there. (In my opinion, the problem weapons are mostly C-Heavy Large, and C-ER Meds.)

As a last note, I think autocannons need some Love too. Some Examples: Clan Std. ACs to single slug, with nerfed reloads instead compared to IS ACs to compensate for their lower weight and longer range. IS UACs with reduced jam chances, and lower heat on the 10/20. RAC Spin-up Time reduced/removed, but always jam at full bar. LBXs given across the board buffs.

Edited by Daurock, 14 September 2017 - 07:29 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Luminis, on 14 September 2017 - 05:12 AM, said:

Y'know, we had a build that was competitive with laser vomit and saw pay.

Thanks to incessant whining, it got GH slapped onto it, ensuring that there's less competition for laser vomit.

The lesson to learn here is that nerfing stuff into the ground doesn't ensure everyone's running different builds. It just shifts the meta to the next best thing that's gonna get boated. And it's pretty predictable, too; go ahead and limit alphas to, dunno, 30 points and watch everyone run dakka Assaults (which we'll see whining about eventually because "90% of Mechs are dakka PGI pls fix").

If you are talking about PPC/Gauss, it wasnt so much a varied build as boating PPFLD.

Its not about limiting alphas blindly but taking into account their DPS, burn durations and other figures too.

[Trissila]

Jun Watarase, on 14 September 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

If you are talking about PPC/Gauss, it wasnt so much a varied build as boating PPFLD.

Its not about limiting alphas blindly but taking into account their DPS, burn durations and other figures too.

So what are you defining as "a varied build"? Not in the sense of having multiple viable builds, but in the sense of the only viable builds being ones that use a haphazard smattering of different weapon systems?

Because being mediocre at several ranges has been inferior to being good at one range for over 20 years now.

[Admiral-Dan]

There are dozens of threads for every kind of weapon (Ballistic, Energy, Missile) claiming that they are OP. I think some guys just want to transform MWO into some kind of mech walking simulator.