105 replies to this topic

[Savage Wolf]

Bigbacon, on 14 September 2017 - 04:21 AM, said:

heat, more heat, ghost heat across all weapons. make it based on how mant you fire at one time, etc etcetc...

something is better than making it even worse.

So basically what you are suggesting is power draw. I like.

[Mobster]

Thorqemada, on 13 September 2017 - 10:14 PM, said:

And the maximum pinpoint damage you can do is 20 with an AC20 or 25 with a Heavy Gaus and not 60, 80, 110 bcs Laserbundling or Weaponbundling does not work in TT and is not expected to be done by the rules so bcs all Mechwarrior games fail to replicate this limitation does not mean it is the right way to allow Superalphas to happen!

I would actually be in favour of bringing more of the Tabletop style combat into the computer game...

In TT when a weapon (each weapon is a single instance) is fired, it has a 'chance' to hit. In videogame world, we the player remove this 'random' element as we use our own 'skill' to line up the shots and most players will rarely miss...

In TT, a laser boat will fire 8 weapons ... and only those that hit will apply damage, and even then this is randomised on hit locations!

in the videogame, firing 8 lasers will generally mean all 8 hit and all 8 hit the same location - this model is utterly removed from how the TT plays.

As such, why not introduce game mechanics which lightly mimic this effect (it can be played out that the tracking servos / internal firing computers of the mech do not respond 'perfectly' with human-like reactions if it needs to be fluffed out)

we still control the weapons and when they fire and the location of the firing reticule, but when a player fires group 1 the game does a little maths, throws in a dash of randomised numbers and determine if the shots hit, if they hit the direct target or spread slightly from center reticule / hit other hitboxes or even if they might miss (firing computer minor malfulction)

This allows all the crappy ghost heat to be removed and brings the experience into a MUCH more tactical game, relying not purely on which player can twitch fire the most lasers, more on weapon firing choices, build options and also on a small element of luck.

I say, bring it closer to the TT game and everyone wins.

The only unwanted effect of this is that each match would likely take longer but I am actually in favour of this, I hate seeing an Atlas literally disappear upon turning a corner... these are supposed to be the ultimate fighting platform, able not only to deliver immense firepower but sustain damage from it too!

I ask that people go and play a game of TT... see how long an Atlas lasts... experience what it's like to have that thing keep coming, experience the fear as your AC10 misses... and it's STILL coming.

TL:DR
Make the videogame closer to Tabletop - include random hit chance for each weapon, include random hit location. Do away with nonsense ghost heat and other crappy anti-alpha attempts.

[Luminis]

Daurock, on 14 September 2017 - 07:25 AM, said:

The Question is, what DOES insure that people play varied builds. Right now, At least for clan side, varied builds pretty much don't exist. GaussVomit, LaserVomit, or Get lost. IS side, its at least somewhat more varied. (I suspect this is at least partially due to the fact that it's extremely hard to reasonably get lasers above 50 or so Alpha IS side.) LaserVomit Battlemasters and Dakka Maulers are Both actually usable, and that's a good thing.

I do think that a little bit of a lowering of laser alpha is probably due. I wouldn't link the large and medium tables, but I probably would consider lowering the GH limit for a few problem weapons here and there. (In my opinion, the problem weapons are mostly C-Heavy Large, and C-ER Meds.)

As a last note, I think autocannons need some Love too. Some Examples: Clan Std. ACs to single slug, with nerfed reloads instead compared to IS ACs to compensate for their lower weight and longer range. IS UACs with reduced jam chances, and lower heat on the 10/20. RAC Spin-up Time reduced/removed, but always jam at full bar. LBXs given across the board buffs.

Eh, there are some 'Mechs that see play and are actually good that aren't laser vomit / gauss vomit. Dakka MCII-B (basically the equivalent of the Dakka Mauler), PPC Summoners, Splatbackers, Scorches / brawling MCII-2 and MG Lights.

But anyway, question is, what else are you gonna use? ATMs and LRMs are crap, Brawling is super annoying in the uncoordinated PUGs (but is still a thing in groups), UACs are pretty underwhelming in their current state unless you've got some critical mass going - and the 'Mechs that can bring that critical mass have been gutted, PPCs ghost heat at two - giving larger 'Mechs underwhelming firepower on their own - and the only weapon that played really nice with it has been GH linked.

Slight buff to Clan UACs and going back just a wee bit on the nerfs to the KDK-3 and NTG is all we'd need to put Clan dakka on the map again but I guess that's not an option. Considering the TBR still has its negative quirks because it was OP years ago...

Long story short, Clan lasers might or might not be too strong, but the primary reason why we're so short on alternatives - which we previously had - is that PGI effectively nerfed the alternatives mostly out of existence over time. So there's really no reason to be surprised that the go-to build is the one that can deal with the nerfs it received by getting to cover a little earlier to cool off the additional heat

Jun Watarase, on 14 September 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

If you are talking about PPC/Gauss, it wasnt so much a varied build as boating PPFLD.

Its not about limiting alphas blindly but taking into account their DPS, burn durations and other figures too.

Erm, it at least meant we had more build variety, as in at least another viable builds that saw play.

If, to you, the goal is to have kitchen sink builds be meta, you'd quite simply have to force players to use bad builds by enforcing them in the Mechlab. No two ways about it.

Edited by Luminis, 14 September 2017 - 08:43 AM.

[Novakaine]

Catten Hart, on 13 September 2017 - 09:08 PM, said:

Let's just make everyone auto-explode if they fire energy weapons at all.

Nope but seriously such a massive energy drain such as an alpha strike should massively reduce a mech combat effectiveNess.
Massively.
Alpha Strikes were meant to be a last ditch attack not a matter of course.

[Gas Guzzler]

This thread should be killed with fire.

L2MechWarrior.

[Luminis]

Novakaine, on 14 September 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

Alpha Strikes were meant to be a last ditch attack not a matter of course.

Because lore 'Mechs weren't build to support alpha striking. Meta builds in MWO are.

I know this rubs people the wrong way, but the idea to expose yourself from cover to only fire a fraction of your potential firepower means you're wasting tonnage on weapons you can not effectively use.

Lore 'Mech design <> sensible 'Mech design.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Novakaine, on 14 September 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

Alpha Strikes were meant to be a last ditch attack not a matter of course.

The only way to change this would be to make weapons overall more effective and either reduce the heat dissipation/capacity across the board. Otherwise the game just devolves into a DPS face rush game like we saw with the ED PTS.

[Dogstar]

Lances107, on 13 September 2017 - 09:46 PM, said:

This is the second thread I have seen attacking laser vomit. For the IS this may not be an issue, but let us be clear of the facts. Thanks to the unending tide of IS complaining, almost all of the clan weapons now have ghost heat attached. In some cases just stupid, like gauss/ppc, and some of our newer weapons add on even more heat to our builds. What your after OP is bracket builds to bring down the alpha damage. Guess what that is not a minor request, you are asking the devs to change the entire nature of the game. So here is few pointers, first do not face tank, second poke, and lastly be smart about where you move and when you move. Get those three down and your all evil laser vomit builds wont be slicing you up and down. Also on the clan side as always laser vomit already fills up our heat bar at a very fast pace. The side that can fire four or five ppcs at the same time with little to no heat, would be the IS side.

My point please learn the game before making a thread like this.

When clan mechs can manage 50, 60, 70, or even 80 point laser alphas then there's a problem. Alphas over 30 damage really need to be penalised.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dogstar, on 14 September 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

Alphas over 30 damage really need to be penalised.

Not all alphas are created equal......

[Trissila]

Luminis, on 14 September 2017 - 08:57 AM, said:

Because lore 'Mechs weren't build to support alpha striking. Meta builds in MWO are.

I know this rubs people the wrong way, but the idea to expose yourself from cover to only fire a fraction of your potential firepower means you're wasting tonnage on weapons you can not effectively use.

Lore 'Mech design <> sensible 'Mech design.

This really can't be emphasized enough.

Lore builds are bad. Really, really bad. To the extent that they compete with more optimal builds at all in TT, it is only because TT is, well, TT. It's a game based largely on dice rolls. You can influence things, but in the end it's all RNG. RNG introduces a cap on how good any given loadout can be, because even the perfect loadout can get screwed by RNG and lose to something vastly inferior.

That kind of thing just does not fly in real-time action games. Having the game randomly force you to miss even when you're on-target is a sure-fire way to get very large numbers of people to quit.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 September 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Not all alphas are created equal......

Most of the playerbase is too dense to grasp this concept.

[Dogstar]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 September 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Not all alphas are created equal......

Laser alphas are all equal.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dogstar, on 14 September 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Laser alphas are all equal.

Even within lasers, not all are equal. A laser alpha that takes 2s to do 50 damage is NOT equal to one that takes only 1s to do 50 damage.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dogstar, on 14 September 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Laser alphas are all equal.

Are they?

If you are in support of the OP's notion, then kindly quit MWO and just wait for MW5. Its that simple. Its obvious the PvP environment is too toxic for you.

[Trissila]

Dogstar, on 14 September 2017 - 09:11 AM, said:

When clan mechs can manage 50, 60, 70, or even 80 point laser alphas then there's a problem. Alphas over 30 damage really need to be penalised.

Alright. So I've got a Timberwolf with 4 cERMLs, two in each arm. That's a 28-point alpha. That's actually my maximum available alpha, underneath your proposed limits, because even an ER Micro Laser deals 2.40 damage and would go over the 30 damage cap.

So, the question now becomes: what do you expect me to do with the other 20.5 tons left on my 'mech?

Slap on other weapons? Why would I? I can't fire any of them or I start incurring penalties. More armor? Nope, already maxed. More heatsinks? I'm already at 53% cooling efficiency with the base engine sinks, and more sinks isn't going to significantly help me given that I'm damage-capped on the 4 cERMLs already and they're not running particularly hot.

What do you propose I do with all this extra tonnage?

[Gas Guzzler]

Trissila, on 14 September 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Alright. So I've got a Timberwolf with 4 cERMLs, two in each arm. That's a 28-point alpha. That's actually my maximum available alpha, underneath your proposed limits, because even an ER Micro Laser deals 2.40 damage and would go over the 30 damage cap.

So, the question now becomes: what do you expect me to do with the other 20.5 tons left on my 'mech?

Slap on other weapons? Why would I? I can't fire any of them or I start incurring penalties. More armor? Nope, already maxed. More heatsinks? I'm already at 53% cooling efficiency with the base engine sinks, and more sinks isn't going to significantly help me given that I'm damage-capped on the 4 cERMLs already and they're not running particularly hot.

What do you propose I do with all this extra tonnage?

"Use volley fire, like a True MechWarrior, like they do in the books. You should have time to grit your teeth and feel the sweat trickling down your back in between volleys too"

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 14 September 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[Dogstar]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 September 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Are they?

If you are in support of the OP's notion, then kindly quit MWO and just wait for MW5. Its that simple. Its obvious the PvP environment is too toxic for you.

I think it's you whose being toxic. What's wrong with wanting alphas to be toned down from the extremes that some clan mechs can manage?

and seriously there's only a tiny difference between an alpha that is delivered in 2s as oppossed to 1s. To say otherwise is being disingenuous - like the clan crocodile tears warriors who have to scream really loudly so that their mechs get to keep their OP alphas.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 September 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

"Use volley fire, like a True MechWarrior, like they do in the books. You should have time to grit your teeth and feel the sweat trickling down your back in between volleys too"

This is exactly what happened in the ED PTS, cERML boats that just volley fired cERMLs for days to DPS face rush.

Dogstar, on 14 September 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

and seriously there's only a tiny difference between an alpha that is delivered in 2s as oppossed to 1s.

Depends on the average level of agility, there was a point in time the Black Knight could handily destroy laser vomit Timber Wolves because it dealt most of its damage within half a second as a opposed to roughly 1.1s. So I'm gonna have to say this is essentially false. Now duration doesn't matter as much as it used to because agility has been toned down since those days, BUT duration still matters for anything volley firing as opposed to alphaing.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 September 2017 - 09:32 AM.

[Dogstar]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 September 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

So I'm gonna have to say this is essentially false

I think you're rather cherry picking your argument there.

[Trissila]

Dogstar, on 14 September 2017 - 09:29 AM, said:

and seriously there's only a tiny difference between an alpha that is delivered in 2s as oppossed to 1s. To say otherwise is being disingenuous - like the clan crocodile tears warriors who have to scream really loudly so that their mechs get to keep their OP alphas.

So what do you propose that we do with the remaining 20.5 tons on that Timberwolf? How would you finish building that 'mech?