79 replies to this topic

[MovinTarget]

anonymous223, on 05 October 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

No dakka with clans, it is useless

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what mechs you have to work with.

I do not use it often, but my quad UAC2 Hunchback is one of my all time faves. So is my dual LBX20 (no ghost heat) hunchie.

Do they have drawbacks? Sure!, but they can have a use too. Additionally, at 50t they don't even suck up a quarter of your tonnage.

[IL MECHWARRIOR]

Your assumptions show a lack of preparation.
A 4 uac2 hunch is easily outgunned by a 4erll one or even a 2 erppc one.
A 2 lbx 20 is easily dismanteled by a 6mpl one.
And if i want to brawl as a medium clanner i bring 7srm6 huntsman or 12 smallaser nova.

[IL MECHWARRIOR]

Medium mechs are also kinda useless, better spam big tons first and light last so you can catch up in time.
Also, the only dakka boats that atm work are
Daishi 8ac2
Night gyr 5ac2+1uac2
Mauler 3rac2+3ac2 (emerald defense)
Jager dd 5ac2 (sulf, hellebore)

[Bud Crue]

anonymous223, on 29 September 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

1)black knight is used on flat maps like emerald taiga or crimson, or river where you have to do a side peek ( so high or low mount is irrelevant) and the terrain is flat, a grasshopper could be better in more difficult terrains, like forest colony or grim plexus.
2)if using a combo, the facetime is given by longest duration weapon, in our case erml= 0.9. your LPLs can have even 0.4 duration, it is irrelevant as you still have to face your enemy for 0.9. At this point face enemy for 1.1 and gain back those 6 tons.
Damage wise you will lose that+1 damage after few meters anyways. LPL and CLPL are trash now.
3)no endo yes light ferro
4) i end up with 1.08 using 20 dhs and 3ll+6 erml

never watch that value, it is totally irrelevant: it does not consider quirks and it is designed in a poor way: if you have

1 LPL and 10 DHS it will say your heat eff is good
10 LPL and 70 DHS, will say it is poor
=
that number is no use at all
your heat eff is given by how many dhs you have
your damage output is a mix between alpha potential,number of heat sinks and range
example, a jagerS 4ac5 and 10DHS has poor heat eff and poor damage potential
a marauder II 2HLL+6erml 30 DHS has a high heat eff and high damage potential.

This because the marauder will refresh instant, and the jager will take ages: the mechlab does nto show this at all and will still say jager is more efficient, and this is wrong

This is the best illustration and explanation of the realities of heat efficiency that I have ever read in these forums or reddit. Really well phrased and explained. You ought to be a teacher (if you’re not) and a moderator should sticky this thread in the faction play main page, and honestly the general discussion main page, and perhaps even the new player page as well. A great and informative thread. Thanks much to all contributors. Now excuse me I need to go re-evaluate a couple hundred builds and for sure all my drop decks (and I thought I was c-bill poor already damnit).

Edited by Bud Crue, 05 October 2017 - 10:30 AM.

[MovinTarget]

anonymous223, on 05 October 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Your assumptions show a lack of preparation.
A 4 uac2 hunch is easily outgunned by a 4erll one or even a 2 erppc one.
A 2 lbx 20 is easily dismanteled by a 6mpl one.
And if i want to brawl as a medium clanner i bring 7srm6 huntsman or 12 smallaser nova.

And if you want to run those mechs, be my guest. But again, there are niche scenarios where these are fun and useful to me. I can score just fine with them.

Running pure meta gets boring and becomes stagnant without some measure of improvisation.

Besides most of your builds run hot if you alpha... 4erll? That limits your situations where you can alpha.

Again, be my guest, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Edited by MovinTarget, 05 October 2017 - 12:01 PM.

[Verilligo]

MovinTarget, on 05 October 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

And if you want to run those mechs, be my guest. But again, there are niche scenarios where these are fun and useful to me. I can score just fine with them.

Running pure meta gets boring and becomes stagnant without some measure of improvisation.

Besides most of your builds run hot if you alpha... 4erll? That limits your situations where you can alpha.

Again, be my guest, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

I think the idea here is that yes, you can use other things. But realistically, using other things is hampering yourself. If you do well with other stuff, you'd do even BETTER with the meta. You're focused on having fun. This is focused on winning and nothing else matters.

[MovinTarget]

I get that, but:

1) All meta, all the time is boring and, frankly predictable.
2) i never said "Use this, not that" in the first place. Dual lb20x is for TT or maybe vitric defense.

Going with my previous comments, sometimes its more fun to eschew the meta as and organized team and do something completely different. Sure, you might not score as well, but to me its worth it if it makes the enemy crap their pants when you throw them for a loop. Also, this is how the meta is shaken up sometimes... it happens w/o nerfs.

Edited by MovinTarget, 05 October 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Verilligo, on 05 October 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

I think the idea here is that yes, you can use other things. But realistically, using other things is hampering yourself. If you do well with other stuff, you'd do even BETTER with the meta. You're focused on having fun. This is focused on winning and nothing else matters.

I don't know if it is an issue of the use of other things than meta is hampering yourself, as much as using a meta build when combined with the play style that anonymous223 is advocating is the meta itself. His own words:

anonymous223, on 15 September 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

brawling works for the mid level player that has equipped whole bunch of srms.
but if you really want to get better, hide, peek, alpha, hide, peek, alpha.
push does not exist, the team advances when the enemies get out traded and start hiding.
If enemies hide from the start, just spam air strikes, no need to walk in like a bunch of sheeps and get farmed.


and at the end, comp builds almost do not differ from faction play ones, the only exception is no radar derp and more survival.
The story of the different play stiles works until your skill level is 7 out of 10
after that, there is only the meta.

This is not advocating mere meta builds but a very specific mode of play in which to use those meta builds.

And that then leads to the point MovinTarget is making (I think): We have hundreds of mechs and thousands of potential builds. A good player can make most if not all work, and might try them all just for the fun of it. Maybe he/she takes it in the shorts occasionally as the cost of playing with all that variety but that is in fact the fun. But the meta player (going now to anon's position) won't bother. The meta player knows what is optimal and is not going to take something lesser. The meta player plays the best build that can be played and that is most likely going to lead to a win in that mode, on that map with that team. And that is the point. Variety per se doesn't win. But the meta mechs with the meta builds used in the manner advocated will make it more likely that you will.

To me this is all academic and fascinating. My own "meta" is represented by mechs and builds that allow me to over come my own personal shortcomings of shaky hands and arthritis, so I will never be good playing the trading game across the map in the peak and hide manner advocated, (I can't keep the reticle on target sufficiently to hit a component let alone on the center of mass consistently) so aspiring to the "mid level" tier of play as a brawler is the best I can hope for. That, plus I too like variety and will bring a bad build for no other reason than it looks good. Meh.

Still I really am enjoying learning more about this higher level of play perspective from you folks. Good stuff. (I once advocated that you folks should be required to do after action interviews after MRBC matches and them transcribe them for publication on the front page of the forums and reddit. I think it would increase the level of play all around.)

Edited by Bud Crue, 05 October 2017 - 02:01 PM.

[MovinTarget]

I think you got it pretty well, Bud.

All i am trying to say is that if you always meta, and the enemy gets into a habit of anticipating (correctly) that you always meta, then the could players will counter, because, contrary to popular belief, meta =/= winning... it might increase your chances over dropping w/e you want, but there are so many more factors people can work on other than copying builds that will positively contribute to their success...

Tl;dr,
Building mechs is ez, making it all work takes more effort/coordination.

[Commander A9]

You could always drop by the Teamspeaks of the major units who are at the top of the Faction Play Leaderboards and drop with them.

We're available all the time and we're willing to teach if you're willing to learn.

[Wolfy36]

Little late to the party, but guaranteed way to get better is as follows:

Step 1: Take 12 light mechs
Step 1.5: Make sure everyone on your team is properly inebriated.
Step 2: Pray it's not a 12 man EVIL, KCOM, or EMP (If it is, continue said prayer hoping you get boreal defense and skipped step 1 and bring a **** ton of ER LL)
Step 3: If step 2 is not applicable, continue with step 1 running over gate into enemy team while the DC reminds you to shoot legs.
Step 4: Have enemy team call you out as being hot trash after losing their assaults.
Step 4.5: Run to fridge to grab another drink
Step 5: Win game
Step 6: Have every clanner yell at you for having fun as they proceed to gen rush.
Step 7: Continue drinking.

[justcallme A S H]

anonymous223, on 05 October 2017 - 09:59 AM, said:

Medium mechs are also kinda useless, better spam big tons first and light last so you can catch up in time.
Also, the only dakka boats that atm work are
Daishi 8ac2
Night gyr 5ac2+1uac2
Mauler 3rac2+3ac2 (emerald defense)
Jager dd 5ac2 (sulf, hellebore)

My MX90 / 4x UAC5 has done well on Vitric Def - similar to a DWF, position it properly and shred.

But ye overall, dakka is... Meh right now.

[Millian]

anonymous223, on 15 September 2017 - 12:09 AM, said:

well, those drop callers usually say

"push push push"

there is nothing wronger than that.

brawling works for the mid level player that has equipped whole bunch of srms.
but if you really want to get better, hide, peek, alpha, hide, peek, alpha.
push does not exist, the team advances when the enemies get out traded and start hiding.
If enemies hide from the start, just spam air strikes, no need to walk in like a bunch of sheeps and get farmed.


and at the end, comp builds almost do not differ from faction play ones, the only exception is no radar derp and more survival.
The story of the different play stiles works until your skill level is 7 out of 10
after that, there is only the meta.

Only problem with that hide peek alpha technique is that a lot of the time you end up making bad trades and the mech will heavier weapons wins.

No, focusing fire is the most effective tactic, especially if you hide peek alpha. no mater what 12 mechs worth of weapons will deplete any mech's armor. Then that one mech has to pick on of 12 targets to fire back at.

[I Peed My Pants]

Koniving, on 16 September 2017 - 06:31 AM, said:

And as a last thing, stats are meaningless. You can have fantastic stats by hiding in a corner.
What was the last useful thing anyone ever did while hiding in a corner?

A good way to determine skill is when they stop screwing around, as stats include all the fun they had, too. Here's a good example. 2 vs 1 in a trial mech before the current tier system, outmatched, outgunned, and in a bad place.
2 kills and I'm still alive to make more.

idk mate, i think your win/loss ratio is a reasonable indicator of your impact on your team... kdr though is pretty useless - I see way to many people hiding to try and survive. pita and pointless.

[justcallme A S H]

Millian, on 05 October 2017 - 08:05 PM, said:

Only problem with that hide peek alpha technique is that a lot of the time you end up making bad trades and the mech will heavier weapons wins.

No, focusing fire is the most effective tactic, especially if you hide peek alpha. no mater what 12 mechs worth of weapons will deplete any mech's armor. Then that one mech has to pick on of 12 targets to fire back at.

That is why it's called - effective trading.

If you are not trading effectively, then stop and reassess... It's not that hard of a concept to understand but many do not have a clue.

I've had Clan mechs with MPL shooting me @ 550m while I'm using LL... I'm in optimal, they are well outside it.

That is not effective trading, they end up dying.

[MischiefSC]

anonymous223, on 05 October 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

Your assumptions show a lack of preparation.
A 4 uac2 hunch is easily outgunned by a 4erll one or even a 2 erppc one.
A 2 lbx 20 is easily dismanteled by a 6mpl one.
And if i want to brawl as a medium clanner i bring 7srm6 huntsman or 12 smallaser nova.

On the nova, 10 heavy smalls and 4 MGs is better overall DPS, cooler running and all hitscan. You give up about 70m range but if you're in an ERSML Nova you're in bumpercars range anyway.

I run both a lot but the HSML/MG one is better on hot maps and pushing, especially since I can usually expect IS to be still in heavies on wave 3 when I'd bring it. The 12 ERSML is better on maps like Forest and Grim where I am functionally poking at brawl range.

[Davegt27]

is this the inner sphere area or just a clan party

[MischiefSC]

Look at the map. IS is mostly Clans now.

Welcome to the party.

[ccrider]

IS is mostly clans except home of mighty Dragon, where Dear Coordinator unleashed full Bushido power and whipped bad dogs off property.

[Berean03]

Some how when I read this I feel the need to post this.