325 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 18 September 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

Almost everything, The argument I've heard is: Picture people from the 1970's, trying to do maintenance on your 2017 Tesla.
everything else would basically be beyond them.

Yeah... or I try a more direct analogy, WWII grunts and mechanics trying to work on, maintain, repair, etc current gen tanks, aircraft, etc. Heck even reverse engineering the small arms would be an iffy proposition with the manufacturing methods of the time. One could possibly manufacture an an AR with 1930s techbase, but the amount of handwork it would take to make it work would be so prohibitively expensive as to be a fools errand.

Let alone rediscovering the metallurgy, chemistry, zero gee manufacturing (Endo steel requires zero gee for some reason in it's manufacture by original fluff anyhow), etc.....

Even Vietnam War tech would be many leaps ahead.

So much to relearn, on so many levels, and most of it isn't even the item itself but how to build the logistics and factories needed to actually make the item, etc.

[Alan Davion]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 02:43 PM, said:

One could possibly manufacture an an AR with 1930s techbase, but the amount of handwork it would take to make it work would be so prohibitively expensive as to be a fools errand.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The Germans did manage to make the worlds first assault rifle, the StG 44, but because of the time and money wasted on all the other wild fancies of the German war machine, it came out too late to really make any appreciable difference.

If the StG 44 had come out a couple years earlier, it may very well have tipped the balance of power back towards Germany and prolonged the war by a considerable margin.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The Germans did manage to make the worlds first assault rifle, the StG 44, but because of the time and money wasted on all the other wild fancies of the German war machine, it came out too late to really make any appreciable difference.

If the StG 44 had come out a couple years earlier, it may very well have tipped the balance of power back towards Germany and prolonged the war by a considerable margin.

and there is still a lot of leaps in manufacture, combat lessons learned and such to go from the massively expensive, but not ultra reliable stg44 to an original AR15 (or even ak47) to the M16a1 to a modern FN series M4.

Similar in concept and mission, but so different in end product, etc. And without the leap to the current glass bedded polymers a lot of stuff would be out of reach entirely (like Glocks, etc), cnc machining, investment casting, etc. It's amazing the degree of difference from the industry base needed to the final product...

As for the war? Maybe. But it wasn't tech innovations that carried the day in Europe and Africa. It was simply a better logistics and manufacturing base. End of the War, the Ratzis had most of the best toys in so many areas... but couldn't make enough of them, couldn't get enough in the hands of soldiers, get enough fuel to the Jets, etc.

It has to be a pretty massive tech differential to win a war on that alone. Factories and logistics win wars more than weapons and clever tactics.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 September 2017 - 02:58 PM.

[oldradagast]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 September 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm fine with keeping flavor of mechs so long as that flavor isn't "piece of trash", Urbanmech being the exception. I just want them to avoid the pitfall of the old Mechwarriors and make the arms race about equipment (or different manufactured versions of that equipment) rather than about mech choice.

It would also work with the free market concept since you could easily make it required to buy "retrofit" kits or something like that specific to your mech to be able to upgrade these mechs or look for the Lord's Light PPCs to get that super awesome PPC on your mech instead of the periphery made PPC you started with. The idea that Russ says customization can't work with the free market is absolute BS.

Exactly. I want my Awesome to remain an Awesome - blasting things with PPC's and LRM's. I want my Atlas's to be able to engage at all ranges - walking walls of inevitable death. I want my Hunchback 4G to be a cannon with a mech attached to it. I don't want 4 UAC5 Maulers or the other nonsense we're stuck playing in MWO because it's the only way to survive, but customizing a bit within those above parameters - putting on a kick-arse new PPC from some rare company, or swapping out a heatsink for more ammo - should be perfectly reasonable and hardly breaks the spirit of Battletech.

The idea that this can't work with a marketplace is laughable. Diablo 2 was able to do that 20 years ago, and while that game had its flaws - almost everything that dropped was junk - it still sold well and was played for years afterwards. Once they added some weapon upgrade systems and a way to respect skills, it just kept on going. Saying that "can't be done!" these days is just absurd.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 September 2017 - 02:59 PM.

[Alan Davion]

oldradagast, on 18 September 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

Saying that "can't be done!" these days is just absurd.

Unless you're PGI and the whole "coding is lostech" thing.

[oldradagast]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

Unless you're PGI and the whole "coding is lostech" thing.

Honestly, that's what worries me more than anything at this point. I get the desire to keep mechs on theme - I'm one of those oddballs who likes piloting an PPC Awesome, and I didn't even grow up on Battletech. I get the desire to have real economics in a game. I'd love to get excited when a Gauss Rifle is salvaged from a mech vs. "ho, hum - another random pile of money and loot crates full of decals and other nonsense junk." But I'm very concerned PGI just doesn't have the ability to do this. I look at the utter mind-boggling disaster of Faction Play - that couldn't have gone worse if they tried - and other huge, lingering mistakes made, and I'm worried about MW5. It's from the same company that couldn't think of anything to do with the Pinpoint skill for about 4 years... ugh...

Honestly, that's why I'm so vocal about this - I feel disappointed and frustrated regarding what MWO could have been and all the people that could have been drawn to this deep and interesting franchise, so I'm sort of "preemptively grumpy" at PGI about potentially dopey decisions being proposed for MW5. Maybe they'll listen, maybe they won't, but I least I spoke up.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 September 2017 - 03:09 PM.

[Athom83]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The Germans did manage to make the worlds first assault rifle, the StG 44, but because of the time and money wasted on all the other wild fancies of the German war machine, it came out too late to really make any appreciable difference.

If the StG 44 had come out a couple years earlier, it may very well have tipped the balance of power back towards Germany and prolonged the war by a considerable margin.

Bit more of {Godwin's Law} not actually liking the StG44. Lot more complicated politics to it, but basically he preferred giving his troops MP40s and MG42s because he didn't like Kurz ammo. The only reason the generals were able to get the StG44 out in a trickle to their troops was labeling them as MP43/MP44 when reporting to the Fuehrer (leading him to not know it was the rifle he halted production on twice until a general let it slip in a meeting).

[Bishop Steiner]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

Unless you're PGI and the whole "coding is lostech" thing.

or you have a budget. PGIs biggest sin (not only one by any means, but when you boil down the fail to it's essence it's this), at the end of the day was unrealistic expectations, of their own ability, and budgets. They sold a AAA game on a Phone App budget. I don't care if Joe Hobbyist can supposedly do it in his basement... oddly Joe Hobbyist is still in his basement and not running a studio putting out games for some odd reason.

Biggest difference between PGI and HBS? HBS knows how to wring the most out of a tiny budget and never oversells. And because of the atmosphere there, their employees tend to overachieve. I really like a lot of the staff here at PGI, have gamed with them, and they are good people. But did you see the Q&A about two months back for HBS, where they had the animators on? Holly was like.. Quads??? Oh that sounds fun I want to do those!

When you have a positive and creative workspace, and a realistic view of budgets, you can make some impressive stuff happen.

Sadly Russ and Paul have Chris Roberts aspirations... and well... PGIs resources.

I guess if we stick to our WWII analogies... PGI would be Italy? :/

[Alan Davion]

Athom83, on 18 September 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

Bit more of {Godwin's Law} not actually liking the StG44. Lot more complicated politics to it, but basically he preferred giving his troops MP40s and MG42s because he didn't like Kurz ammo. The only reason the generals were able to get the StG44 out in a trickle to their troops was labeling them as MP43/MP44 when reporting to the Fuehrer (leading him to not know it was the rifle he halted production on twice until a general let it slip in a meeting).

Just one more example of why he was balls-out-batshit-whacko.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Just one more example of why he was balls-out-batshit-whacko.

Thankfully. Had he been of sounder mind and more patient? We'd likely be speaking German. well, in my case, being from the West Coast of the USA, Japanese. (Well...no, he probably would have turned on them like he did Russia, too, eventually, but I'd rather have grown up eating sushi than brats. Beer industry in the USA would probably be a lot better though.... and the trains would be on time!)

[Alan Davion]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

or you have a budget. PGIs biggest sin (not only one by any means, but when you boil down the fail to it's essence it's this), at the end of the day was unrealistic expectations, of their own ability, and budgets. They sold a AAA game on a Phone App budget. I don't care if Joe Hobbyist can supposedly do it in his basement... oddly Joe Hobbyist is still in his basement and not running a studio putting out games for some odd reason.

Biggest difference between PGI and HBS? HBS knows how to wring the most out of a tiny budget and never oversells. And because of the atmosphere there, their employees tend to overachieve. I really like a lot of the staff here at PGI, have gamed with them, and they are good people. But did you see the Q&A about two months back for HBS, where they had the animators on? Holly was like.. Quads??? Oh that sounds fun I want to do those!

When you have a positive and creative workspace, and a realistic view of budgets, you can make some impressive stuff happen.

Sadly Russ and Paul have Chris Roberts aspirations... and well... PGIs resources.

I guess if we stick to our WWII analogies... PGI would be Italy? :/

I haven't seen the recent HBS Q&As. Have too much on my plate already dealing with medical and legal stuff trying to get on disability for my Crohn's disease.

I'd say it's more just Russ that has Chris Roberts level ambitions, Paul is just... Somewhere out in the Periphery for all he cares.

I think the biggest difference, personally, is the guys at HBS, Jordan, Mitch and everyone, can actually pal around with everyone they work with and still get crap done on time. Everyone at PGI just kind of... Phones it in.

There's no PASSION.

I mean sure, Russ "says" he's passionate, but we all know better... Or at the very least, we should know better by this point in time.

Jordan Weisman probably has more passion in his right little toe than Russ has in his hole body.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

I haven't seen the recent HBS Q&As. Have too much on my plate already dealing with medical and legal stuff trying to get on disability for my Crohn's disease.

I'd say it's more just Russ that has Chris Roberts level ambitions, Paul is just... Somewhere out in the Periphery for all he cares.

I think the biggest difference, personally, is the guys at HBS, Jordan, Mitch and everyone, can actually pal around with everyone they work with and still get crap done on time. Everyone at PGI just kind of... Phones it in.

There's no PASSION.

I mean sure, Russ "says" he's passionate, but we all know better... Or at the very least, we should know better by this point in time.

Jordan Weisman probably has more passion in his right little toe than Russ has in his hole body.

I have to disagree. Russ is passionate. I've met the man and have interacted enough with him. But he is exceedingly social awkward. In some ways he reminds me of myself in that regard. I have a vision, and I'm passionate about it which makes me somewhat rigid in implementing it. But because of my Asperger's, I tend to be very curt, blunt and literal, get impatient easy and forget that a lot of times the thought process that for me is natural and instant needs to be spelled out for neurotyical minds simply because normal people make connections differently. If I had to venture a guess, I would not be shocked if he is on the spectrum, like myself and a few others around here. His social interactions certainly fit the profile.

[oldradagast]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 03:27 PM, said:

I mean sure, Russ "says" he's passionate, but we all know better... Or at the very least, we should know better by this point in time.

Jordan Weisman probably has more passion in his right little toe than Russ has in his hole body.

If PGI was passionate about Mechwarrior or Battletech, we wouldn't have to go to Sarna to get even a single scrap of Lore to go along with this game. Or, maybe they ARE passionate, but need to hire people who can actually communicate and bring people into the game and its world.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 September 2017 - 03:40 PM.

[Alan Davion]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 03:33 PM, said:

I have to disagree. Russ is passionate. I've met the man and have interacted enough with him. But he is exceedingly social awkward. In some ways he reminds me of myself in that regard. I have a vision, and I'm passionate about it which makes me somewhat rigid in implementing it. But because of my Asperger's, I tend to be very curt, blunt and literal, get impatient easy and forget that a lot of times the thought process that for me is natural and instant needs to be spelled out for neurotyical minds simply because normal people make connections differently. If I had to venture a guess, I would not be shocked if he is on the spectrum, like myself and a few others around here. His social interactions certainly fit the profile.

Well, I admit I exaggerated a little bit in my descriptions there, but having not directly interacted with him I can only draw assumptions/conclusions based on what I've seen of him in videos like MechCon and the dreaded Town Halls.

I had a friend on the internet a few years ago with Asperger's as well, so I can imagine what that's like, even if I might not completely understand it... Actually when my Crohn's disease is acting up I get blunt, curt and impatient pretty damn quick myself... But you probably would too if you were stuck for hours at a time feeling like you just got sucker punched in the gut, right?

[Bishop Steiner]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Well, I admit I exaggerated a little bit in my descriptions there, but having not directly interacted with him I can only draw assumptions/conclusions based on what I've seen of him in videos like MechCon and the dreaded Town Halls.

I had a friend on the internet a few years ago with Asperger's as well, so I can imagine what that's like, even if I might not completely understand it... Actually when my Crohn's disease is acting up I get blunt, curt and impatient pretty damn quick myself... But you probably would too if you were stuck for hours at a time feeling like you just got sucker punched in the gut, right?

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 03:40 PM, said:

Well, I admit I exaggerated a little bit in my descriptions there, but having not directly interacted with him I can only draw assumptions/conclusions based on what I've seen of him in videos like MechCon and the dreaded Town Halls.

I had a friend on the internet a few years ago with Asperger's as well, so I can imagine what that's like, even if I might not completely understand it... Actually when my Crohn's disease is acting up I get blunt, curt and impatient pretty damn quick myself... But you probably would too if you were stuck for hours at a time feeling like you just got sucker punched in the gut, right?

Oh quite so. Trust me it's not just social difficulties. I have wolverine level sense of smell, hearing, etc... and absolutely zero ability to filter stuff. I literally cannot tune something out. And anything like perfumes axe body spray trigger asthma attacks, searing headaches, etc. I had someone use one of those bath and bodyworks hand lotions in a car and the side of my face nearest them broke out into a rash almost instantly. So when the whole world is constantly giving a full sensory assault at all times, and you are generally hobbled by full panic attacks (along with multiple chemical sensitivity meaning I am allergic to pretty much all the scented crap that's in everything these days), I can kind of equate. (And the IBS doesn't help either though it's by no means on par with Crohn's).

So yeah, I do feel you.

[Athom83]

Alan Davion, on 18 September 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

Just one more example of why he was balls-out-batshit-whacko.

Yah, like restricting the funding for the Jets in production before the US entered the war (had he listened to his generals, a good majority of the Luftwaffe would have been flying Me 262s by D-Day), using the V1s and V2s on civilian targets instead of allied supply lines (which was in their power and means), and a variety of other 'minor' errors that would have ended as a German victory if he listened to his staff.

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 03:20 PM, said:

I guess if we stick to our WWII analogies... PGI would be Italy? :/

I think they're more like Australia.

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

Oh quite so. Trust me it's not just social difficulties. I have wolverine level sense of smell, hearing, etc... and absolutely zero ability to filter stuff. I literally cannot tune something out. And anything like perfumes axe body spray trigger asthma attacks, searing headaches, etc. I had someone use one of those bath and bodyworks hand lotions in a car and the side of my face nearest them broke out into a rash almost instantly. So when the whole world is constantly giving a full sensory assault at all times, and you are generally hobbled by full panic attacks (along with multiple chemical sensitivity meaning I am allergic to pretty much all the scented crap that's in everything these days), I can kind of equate. (And the IBS doesn't help either though it's by no means on par with Crohn's).

So yeah, I do feel you.

Same. I can hear the guy in the other room scratching himself, 2 of 3 cats snoring (the third is currently on patrol in the basement), Dancing with the Stars going in the other room, the dishwasher going, the AC unit outside, the cars going by, and the buzz of a lightbulb with some dead moths in it. Not even mentioning the cricket that is making a racket in the breezeway, nor my stuffed nose making a slight whistle. I'm there too.

[Zergling]

Athom83, on 18 September 2017 - 05:10 PM, said:

Yah, like restricting the funding for the Jets in production before the US entered the war (had he listened to his generals, a good majority of the Luftwaffe would have been flying Me 262s by D-Day), using the V1s and V2s on civilian targets instead of allied supply lines (which was in their power and means), and a variety of other 'minor' errors that would have ended as a German victory if he listened to his staff.

The Me 262 fighter-bomber thing is actually a myth; the hold up with the Me 262 was the Jumo 004 engines, not the airframe (which had been pretty much completed by 1943).

The desire for a fighter-bomber Me 262 actually had some solid logical grounds; it was intended to be used to attack D-Day landing beaches, when it was assumed Allied air superiority would be so great that nothing else could effectively get through to attack (which was a correct assumption; while there was one or two strafing runs by German planes, it wasn't nearly enough to help the defenders).

When the request for fighter-bomber Me 262 was first made, it was actually ignored by everyone. Only about a week before D-day did the Big H actually find out he'd been ignored, and he was furious, ordering all work on fighter variants to be stopped and focused on his fighter-bombers instead.
...but then D-Day happened, and a week later the order was quietly rescinded.

In the end, it didn't matter; even if the original order had been obeyed, the fighter-bombers still wouldn't have been ready by D-Day due to the Jumo 004 not being ready for combat use.
And if the order had never been made, the fighter version still wouldn't have been ready either.

In the end, the Me 262 wasn't able to effectively enter service until late-February 1945. Before that, the Luftwaffe was too hampered by engine issues to be able to train enough pilots to use the machines, nevermind actually use them in combat to any real effect.


As for V1s and V2s... well, their accuracy was so horrible they really weren't able to score hits against anything other than city sized targets.
The only use against a 'tactical' target was the Ludendorff bridge in March 1945, where 11 V-2s were fired, none scored a hit. The nearest miss was only 500-800 yards though, but the furthest was 40 km off.

Edited by Zergling, 18 September 2017 - 07:23 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Meanwhile.....

What killed MechWarrior for 10 years was mistakes made with MechAssault. Number One, NO JOYSTICK SUPPORT, for a game where everyone used a joystick. You may differ, but I played MW3 and MW4 with a Merc Unit for 7 years, certainly over 60 different players, and 100 percent of them used a joystick, either with a mouse or just the joystick. 100 percent.

But the other thing was No Mechlab, just variants, most tailored to mission types.

Don't under estimate the power of MECHLAB in MechWarrior. MECHLAB is what makes MechWarrior the BEST mech game.**



**see MechAssault, doom of the franchise. quote: "Not your daddy's MechWarrior"




Now you could make salvage and market items hard to come by, but a total removal of MechLab will lower player interest by a great deal. How much depends on a lot of factors, but it will be a powerful negative factor.

Edited by Lightfoot, 19 September 2017 - 10:43 AM.

[Greyhart]

This thread could be a case study in the power of confirmation bias.

Clearly there is going to customisation as it says they are adding different weapons in later in the game, but it is not the same level of customisation as MWO. So likely no armour, structure or engine swapping. Possibly sized hard points, but that's a guess.

As to why limitations make for better games.

A good game is about cost benefit balances and making hard choices. This is why generally wizards have light armour but do high burst damage and warriors have heavy armour and to sustained damage. If you had the ability to make a warrior that does the same thing as a wizard why would you take a wizards?

Don't get me wrong being able to slap anything on anything is fun in the I am all powerful sort of way , but it is shallow and ultimately not rewarding, because the game is not challenging.

[Lightfoot]

Nope, PGI is wrong on this one. Mechlab is the core feature of MechWarrior, or one of them. Deny it at your peril. 'MechWarrior 5 was okay, but no Mechlab' could be the epithet. MechAssault is a prime example.

Makes me wonder if the game is going to be driven by elite Mech Packs, because Mechlab is such a powerful game seller for MechWarrior, why would any rational person want to leave it out completely? MechWarrior 4 had a couple of Mech-Packs..

I know the psyche of the MechWarrior enthusiast and many want a full return to MechWarrior 2's dynamic Salvage and MechLab. It could be limited to changing the weapons loadout, but none at all? That's just turning a blind eye to the fan base.

edit: Well, when players get the same list of salvage items from the mission everytime no matter what they do in the mission they automatically complain why is there no dynamic salvage as in MechWarrior 2. I think that counts as a commonly wished for feature.

Edited by Lightfoot, 19 September 2017 - 10:36 AM.