325 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Thorn Hallis, on 18 September 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

While I agree and this is all true, there are two (very small, but still) possibilities where a JR7-K might surface before FF was rediscovered - Comstar and the Arkab Legion.

Comstar supplied the Draconis Combine with advanced tech in exchange for the creation of the Free Rasalhague Republic. While they stripped most of the Mechs down, some where overlooked, so the possibilty is there.

And then there is the Arkab Legion, that for whatever reasons still had Star League-era 'Mechs at the end of the Succession Wars (guess noone can explain that, but hey).

Free market comes to mind. Many people inherit mechs for generations, some of them opt to stay out of the fighting. You can have buy old mechs. Sometimes people, just like series creator and FASA Cofounder Weisman, put financial needs over their 'baby' and opt to sell their prized possession. In this case it could be that JR7-K, kept in...reasonably decent condition, possibly even with "hodge-podge" armor where standard armor was used to replace some parts of ferro but not all of it. Or maybe it's in prestine condition, kept as a trophy and never sent to battle after his great great great great grandfather retired and said war wasn't worth it.

I figure there's a chance for nearly impossible to maintain relics in there.
In the campaign attempt to create a JR7-K from a JR7-D four years before they go back into production (as House Kurita), I did succeed... and a week later it went from nearly prestine to average in just a week from just maintenance.

[Bishop Steiner]

Koniving, on 18 September 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

Wrote "modifying and redesigning the JR7-K" by accident, it's supposed to be the D again but JR7-K stuck in my head when I wrote it from the previous sentence.

And indeed, if you do a campaign and try to run this with customization rather than BT's build your own mech rules, it is an arduous task even in 3051 for mercenaries. 11 years after the reintroduction of Ferro and 2 years after MW5: Mercs will end.

As noted in the last paragraph though, it was reasonably easier for the Great Houses to do it by literally having the proper factory (or any high end factory/facility 'technically') do the job due to the bonuses they give you for the die rolls, but even then I still had a problem that I picked up (being unbalanced) versus buying the mech flat out built from scratch.

(And it took all morning to do this, too, because I was curious. It also took more than 3 tries but those were the three that actually had the right facility in use. The others were even more dramatic flops but the attempts were done in simple maintenance or repair bays like the one you see in MW5: Merc's trailer [that being a maintenance bay]. In one case, 7 people died when trying it from a repair bay. Unfortunately megamek HQ didn't have an explanation ready to throw at me, which was disappointing I was really curious about that as I had never had people die when trying to modify a mech before.)

And what the Battletech Customization charts don't account is the difference in R&D costs and such for a one off, and a Factory doing it for a production run. Ferro, if one could find a supplier (which will be scarce if at all before the Clan Invasion) one could with time and effort modify to fit their mech, etc. But Endo? For a one off job of replacing the entire skeleton on something with all these fitted parts, around something that is now 14 crit slots bulkier?

IIRC they got the Difficulty Rating about right, but the R&D cost would be more than the entire mech is worth, which is not covered by the rules. It's one thing to take a model where the factory has a production run of said Mech with and without, to modify it (though probably still grossly inefficient) but for one that never has had an Endo Chassis designed? And then to redistribute all the components around the new, much bulkier chassis? And have it all fit under the same nice fitted armor plates?

That's orders of magnitudes more difficult and expensive than pretty much anything else one can do on a mech, if one knows ANYTHING about mechanical engineering and such.

Koniving, on 18 September 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

Free market comes to mind. Many people inherit mechs for generations, some of them opt to stay out of the fighting. You can have buy old mechs. Sometimes people, just like series creator and FASA Cofounder Weisman, put financial needs over their 'baby' and opt to sell their prized possession. In this case it could be that JR7-K, kept in...reasonably decent condition, possibly even with "hodge-podge" armor where standard armor was used to replace some parts of ferro but not all of it. Or maybe it's in prestine condition, kept as a trophy and never sent to battle after his great great great great grandfather retired and said war wasn't worth it.

I figure there's a chance for nearly impossible to maintain relics in there.
In the campaign attempt to create a JR7-K from a JR7-D four years before they go back into production (as House Kurita), I did succeed... and a week later it went from nearly prestine to average in just a week from just maintenance.

Could one accurately say... MW franchise has kept the training wheels on and largely coddled the masses in regards to mechlab and customization?

[DrxAbstract]

Koniving, on 18 September 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

(Mkay I'm done now. )

I misspoke in saying the D when it was the D(S) I was referring to (Which I've already said). The D does not have Ferro or Endo, nor did the F... Which was my issue with Bullock's statement. I've also reiterated the possibility of either one surfacing, however remote, with Ferro/Endo.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

I'm sorry, but I still think they got it backwards.

MWO should've had limited customization due to being a multiplayer game that survives on new mech sales. To keep interest for each chassis limitations allow there to be less redundancy involved with each new mech and also allow for more control on the dev side to balance things.

MW5 should have free customization because the only balance that actually matters is to pace the strength gain for "characters." If I wanted to be a career Vindi pilot but slowly upgrade it with new tech I salvage from each mission to keep up with the arms race of the campaign I should be able to do just that. The argument that this is the way it was in MW2/3/4 is not really valid because that arms race to the gun bag assaults was actually detrimental to the experience as far as I'm concerned, especially given how lore seems to make it seem that getting a new mech or switching to a different one was less common than upgrading/retrofitting an existing one (especially mercs).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 September 2017 - 10:28 AM.

[Dragonscar]

I know that some folks think single player games are a thing of the past and not really worth it, BUT...

I AM REALLY looking forward to a MechWarrior game with a STORYLINE again !!!

Edited by Dragonscar, 18 September 2017 - 10:29 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 September 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm sorry, but I still think they got it backwards.

MWO should've had limited customization due to being a multiplayer game that survives on new mech sales. To keep interest for each chassis limitations allow there to be less redundancy involved with each new mech and also allow for more control on the dev side to balance things.

MW5 should have free customization because the only balance that actually matters is to pace the strength gain for "characters." If I wanted to be a career Vindi pilot but slowly upgrade it with new tech I salvage from each mission to keep up with the arms race of the campaign I should be able to do just that. The argument that this is the way it was in MW2/3/4 is not really valid because that arms race to the gun bag assaults was actually detrimental to the experience as far as I'm concerned, especially given how lore seems to make it seem that getting a new mech or switching to a different one was less common than upgrading/retrofitting an existing one (especially mercs).

You might be right. The question remains how limited will customization be? If it's similar to HBS's game, then you will be able to do that what you describe with the Vindi example... what you wouldn't be able to do (and makes sense that you couldn't) is essentially make that Vindi into a Blackjack or a Phoenix hawk. Which fits the story. You are a Merc, not the commander of the Royal Guard for a House Davion or something.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

You might be right. The question remains how limited will customization be? If it's similar to HBS's game, then you will be able to do that what you describe with the Vindi example... what you wouldn't be able to do (and makes sense that you couldn't) is essentially make that Vindi into a Blackjack or a Phoenix hawk.

I'm fine with keeping flavor of mechs so long as that flavor isn't "piece of trash", Urbanmech being the exception. I just want them to avoid the pitfall of the old Mechwarriors and make the arms race about equipment (or different manufactured versions of that equipment) rather than about mech choice.

It would also work with the free market concept since you could easily make it required to buy "retrofit" kits or something like that specific to your mech to be able to upgrade these mechs or look for the Lord's Light PPCs to get that super awesome PPC on your mech instead of the periphery made PPC you started with. The idea that Russ says customization can't work with the free market is absolute BS.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 September 2017 - 10:38 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 September 2017 - 10:35 AM, said:

I'm fine with keeping flavor of mechs so long as that flavor isn't "piece of trash", Urbanmech being the exception. I just want them to avoid the pitfall of the old Mechwarriors and make the arms race about equipment (or different manufactured versions of that equipment) rather than about mech choice.

And that we don't know. We don't know how limited customization will be, if at all, TBH. The article does not exactly provide all that much detail.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

in all MW ( Lance Coop in mW4) Games we fight most alone against one AI Lances or More Lances ..with no perfect Customization for the Own Playstyle most no Chance against heavier Mechs back in the Days..to forced me to use a Light with MGs or Flamers or only SRM 2 against 3 or 4 Bandits is most a horrible Idea ,or we become AI Support with a Full lance ? ...im seeing today no good AI to manage a PvE Game from PGI

the most horrible opart in each MW Game is to driving a Motion Sickness Light mech (by God ,im bring the Light Missions in the Solaris in mw4 to a short end ...the Fun beginning with mediums ) ...and im hate the ugly Jenner in all Ways

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 18 September 2017 - 10:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 10:37 AM, said:

And that we don't know. We don't know how limited customization will be, if at all, TBH. The article does not exactly provide all that much detail.

It makes it sounds like that given the JR7-F vs JR7-D example, but you are right they are still extremely vague about it. Given people's responses both here and on reddit though, the community seems to like that approach so I think it is more likely that it will take the approach HBS are to appease the community.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 September 2017 - 10:41 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 September 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

It makes it sounds like that given the JR7-F vs JR7-D example, but you are right they are still extremely vague about it. Given people's responses both here and on reddit though, the community seems to like that approach so I think it is more likely that it will take the approach HBS are to appease the community.

Yup. That is my hope, but I can't make any definitive claims. Add in the extra layer of new tech trickling in? I dunno if you played MW2 Mercs back in the day, but I always loved how the Star League mechs and stuff trickled in.

Of course, I'm sure there will be much pissing and moaning once people get reacquainted with Single Heatsinks as the norm, lol.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 September 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

Yup. That is my hope, but I can't make any definitive claims. Add in the extra layer of new tech trickling in? I dunno if you played MW2 Mercs back in the day, but I always loved how the Star League mechs and stuff trickled in.

Yeah, for some reason I just don't see PGI make the game live up to MW2:Mercs. Honestly it would be kinda cool to see a "survival" mode for their campaign though kinda like with Fallout for those who want that experience of having to manage all those details and being constrained much harder resource wise as well with the expectation you may end up in an untenable situation (causing you to restart your campaign or something like that).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 18 September 2017 - 10:50 AM.

[Alan Davion]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 September 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Yeah, for some reason I just don't see PGI make the game live up to MW2:Mercs. Honestly it would be kinda cool to see a "survival" mode for their campaign though kinda like with Fallout for those who want that experience of having to manage all those details and being constrained much harder resource wise as well with the expectation you may end up in an untenable situation (causing you to restart your campaign or something like that).

It's actually not all that hard to create a survival type mode.

Look at Stellaris for instance. I've sunk 105 hours into that game according to Steam, and of those 105 hours, I've had to completely scrap my game and start over at least a dozen times because one minor detail that I somehow missed sent me into an immediate downward spiral, read, resource management, or was just plain bad luck starting next to some raging dingus of an empire that walks all over me an hour or two into the game.

The fact of the matter is we just don't know enough about MW5 to be making the kind of snap judgements that some people, 6thMessenger I'm looking at you, are making about this game.

Edited by Alan Davion, 18 September 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[MechaBattler]

Someone clear something up for me. How much common knowledge about the workings of mechs was lost during the wars? It's implied that the first few succession wars got so bad that they didn't understand how to build new mechs. They had to rely on the fact that the factories were largely automated. If that's true. How does a merc unit have access to technical understanding and equipment to refit a mech? Especially if it's the kind of conversion that requires swapping an ammo feed system for an energy feed. You'd think that kind of thing would be too far a field for some scruffy mercs. :3

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 18 September 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

Yeah, for some reason I just don't see PGI make the game live up to MW2:Mercs. Honestly it would be kinda cool to see a "survival" mode for their campaign though kinda like with Fallout for those who want that experience of having to manage all those details and being constrained much harder resource wise as well with the expectation you may end up in an untenable situation (causing you to restart your campaign or something like that).

I'm not saying it will. I'm simply pointing out an existing progression mechanic for introducing new tech. If PGI can't do something that simple then we got issues.

[Alan Davion]

MechaBattler, on 18 September 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Someone clear something up for me. How much common knowledge about the workings of mechs was lost during the wars? It's implied that the first few succession wars got so bad that they didn't understand how to build new mechs. They had to rely on the fact that the factories were largely automated. If that's true. How does a merc unit have access to technical understanding and equipment to refit a mech? Especially if it's the kind of conversion that requires swapping an ammo feed system for an energy feed. You'd think that kind of thing would be too far a field for some scruffy mercs. :3

Well it depends on location really. Along the borders of the Great Houses, you could be looking at worlds living in practically the bronze age. Farmers having to tend their fields on their own rather than having some fancy automated greenhouse dome, or even just a plain Agromech could sometimes be considered a prized family heirloom.

Deeper into the territory of one great house or another it might not be so bad. The capitals of each house generally being the most modern examples.

Building new mechs could still be done, it was just a lot more time consuming.

The major technology that was lost for a long time was being able to build new Jumpships to allow interstellar travel, and they were written into the Ares Conventions, basically the Battletech version of the Geneva Convention, that because Jumpships were so precious, if you deliberately damaged, or god forbid destroyed one, it was open season on your butt and the entire Inner Sphere was the Lawn Mower basically.

As far as weapon conversions or whatever, it could be done, provided the planet you were on had the proper facilities. A fully equipped military base with mech bay and all that. If you were trying to do it on your Dropship for instance, you MIGHT be able to do it if your techs are brilliant, but it will still take a ridiculous amount of time.

Edited by Alan Davion, 18 September 2017 - 11:11 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

MechaBattler, on 18 September 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Someone clear something up for me. How much common knowledge about the workings of mechs was lost during the wars? It's implied that the first few succession wars got so bad that they didn't understand how to build new mechs. They had to rely on the fact that the factories were largely automated. If that's true. How does a merc unit have access to technical understanding and equipment to refit a mech? Especially if it's the kind of conversion that requires swapping an ammo feed system for an energy feed. You'd think that kind of thing would be too far a field for some scruffy mercs. :3

When the story is supposed to start, that is exactly the state. Mind you you still had places like Hesperus II where it wasn't completely lost, and the Merlin was created n 3010, IIRC correctly. But it was extremely basic stuff, and most House Units were held together with twine and spit, let alone a nobody merc unit just getting started.

By the 3020s there was the beginnings of a Renaissance, but that still wasn't something the average joe was seeing. by the time the timeline gets in the 3030s, not really an issue at all, though you still had a strong divide between haves and have nots, the IS and the Periphery, etc.

[Lightfoot]

I would suggest some level of Mechlab. Usually you can't maintain unlimited mechs in a Mercenary Campaign so adapting a load-out to a map environment, (something that MWO has never touched with it's Mechlab before Map selection model) is a feature that also lends realism and strategy to an otherwise unrealized gameplay element.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

MechaBattler, on 18 September 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

Someone clear something up for me. How much common knowledge about the workings of mechs was lost during the wars? It's implied that the first few succession wars got so bad that they didn't understand how to build new mechs. They had to rely on the fact that the factories were largely automated. If that's true. How does a merc unit have access to technical understanding and equipment to refit a mech? Especially if it's the kind of conversion that requires swapping an ammo feed system for an energy feed. You'd think that kind of thing would be too far a field for some scruffy mercs. :3

Almost everything, The argument I've heard is: Picture people from the 1970's, trying to do maintenance on your 2017 Tesla.

They'd know how to change the tires [repair armor/weapons.] maybe change the oil, but everything else would basically be beyond them.

[Mystere]

oldradagast, on 17 September 2017 - 08:38 AM, said:

"You want your players to play?" Sorry, but the game designers should be trying to make a game that the customers want to BUY, not the game they are trying to SELL, which is what you're implying.

As for game design issues with full customization, I'm just not buying it. How is sticking SRM's on my Awesome 8R and upgrading the engine to make it a fast brawler- a large customization change - going to break the game? If the AI is programmed so badly that it can't handle a brawling Awesome 8R with SRM's, but it can handle other brawling mechs with SRM's, than it's rubbish code and won't be worth playing anyway.

I understand the concerns about interaction between customization and in-game markets and mech-upgrades, but I just can't imagine this being some sort of insurmountable issue. There are countless games out there, both PvE and PvP, with marketplaces and customization options, and they all work fine; why are we to believe that THIS game MUST be different from all the others and can ONLY work with limited to no customization?

You can argue about the spirit of Battletech all you want, and I do get it - I like super-stock builds, too. But for many people, the mechlab is a huge part of the experience, and I just don't see this game selling well if it alienates about half of an already dwindling and splintering fan base... particularly when it is not rocket science to add in at least SOME reasonable level of customization if the player wants to have that active for his campaign.

Remember, this is PGI we are talking about. Offering different levels of customization via a "difficulty setting" is more work. How much? That's on PGI as well.

And I haven't even started on balance and gameplay implications.

Edited by Mystere, 18 September 2017 - 01:55 PM.