325 replies to this topic

[Hipstank]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 18 September 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

If all of you saying "it'll fail" let it fail simply because "Muh Mechlab" Then it's failure wasn't on the gameplay, or the story, or the actual content of the game itself, it's due to a slight some of the userbase felt because they could not adapt to change.

If it, fails, then it fails, it'll still be installed on my harddrive, playable, and I'll be enjoying it even if you do not. *shrugs* That, is what I'm getting at, If you feel it's a failure, FINE. I likely will not, and I'll be enjoying it long after you're stuck with MWO's ****** progression and continually whining about not having enough maps and modes.

So if the languishing MechWarrior IP dies out entirely because MW5 is a critical and commercial failure, you're entirely okay with that because you got the one game that forces other people to play stock builds in their single player game like how you like to play? Or if it's a failure for any other reason(s) you still wouldn't care?

That sounds a bit extreme, but that also sounds like what you're saying so... still looking for that clarification.

[Hipstank]

Even without customization, there will be a "meta". Some Mechs and variants will outperform others. Out of the "hundreds" they're proposing, the most effective will MAYBE boil down to 10-15% of those? Like the Thunderbolt example some other people used prior, in MechWARRIOR I can't think of an instance where a Thunderbolt 5S is better to use than a 5SE as long as you have the choice between to two. This isn't table top. No matter how much you love the "lore" (some real loose definitions of that in here too) MechWarrior is essentially an FPS. It cannot be 1:1 to TT or it will be a mess.

TL;DR if I can afford to run Ferrari 488s, I will not be running Toyota Corollas whether or not I can customize either one of them. So figure out a new argument for why you feel like it's valid for there to be no customization aside from your preference.

Edited by Hipstank, 18 September 2017 - 06:27 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Athom83, on 18 September 2017 - 06:11 AM, said:

I'm not reading through 10 pages of argument/whine (I made it a few pages then gave up), so I'll just be saying my 2 cents.

Reading through, I do not see where they say "No customization". Yes, it does say that customization will be restricted but it doesn't outright say "No" to it. What Russ says seems to be implying is that you can't swap out Armor/Structure types nor switch engines around, yet it seems to be inferring that you may be able to swap weapons around of similar types. "Mechs, pilots, technicians, weapon systems- everything you need...". The closest that I've seen to hit the mark;


Yet, that is still not quite there. Medium lasers +1 is not Large laser. The tonnage and power requirements are a bit to great for that leap. Medium laser +1 would be Medium Pulse lasers (when the timeline advances to when they get implemented). I may be a bit optimistic, yet what the wording/tone seems to be inferring is that weapons from certain "classes" would be able to be changed around (Small laser up to Medium Pulse, (ER)LL up to (ER)PPC, AC/2 to UAC/5, etc) while other weapons on some mechs may not be changed due to being inbuilt systems (PPC arms on the Warhammer, LRM20 chest of the Highlander, etc).

You're arguably right, if we're talking 3035+ tech. My baseline, is always Tier 1, 3025 era battletech.

Ranking would be:
Flamer
Small Laser
Medium Laser
Large Laser
PPC

MG
AC2
AC5
AC10
AC20

LRM5
LRM10
LRM15
LRM20

SRM2
SRM4
SRM6

Under my system, a medium would indeed, be able to upgrade to a large, but not to a ppc, but could be downgraded to small.

Missile systems are the outlayer, as the "Tubes" for missiles, tend to be the same regardless of SRM's or LRM's... which leads to the ability [I believe even in lore but I'd have to doublecheck it] to swap missile systems relatively simply, at least, from larger weapons to smaller [simply block off the unused tubes]

Pulse/ER would arguably be sidegrades, and not exactly tied to the tier system.

Dakota1000, on 18 September 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

I see there's no changing your opinions on the matter. You'll have your fun either way, great for you and all that, but I'm not so selfish. I'm hoping that they make the game good, and provide to as much of the playerbase as possible to boost the player counts, sales, ratings, and chances of sequels. MW5 being the end of the series rather than the rebirth would be a shame.

Why are you so against others being able to do something that doesn't affect how you play the game anyway?

Except I want a good game for everyone too.

YOUR argument, stems from the misnomer that "Without a mechlab, they cannot have a good game" To that I say BS.

Hipstank, on 18 September 2017 - 06:17 AM, said:

So if the languishing MechWarrior IP dies out entirely because MW5 is a critical and commercial failure, you're entirely okay with that because you got the one game that forces other people to play stock builds in their single player game like how you like to play? Or if it's a failure for any other reason(s) you still wouldn't care?

That sounds a bit extreme, but that also sounds like what you're saying so... still looking for that clarification.

If it dies out because people here decided it wasn't worth their time because no mechlab... I'm fine with it languishing, because I'll have the game I've dreamed about for years, and clearly, I, and those clamoring for Mechlab, are not on the same page.

IF it dies out because PGI proved inept with gameplay/story/things that actually matter in a game about blowing up giant robots. [not mechlab related issues] Then that rests entirely on PGI, and will suck heavily.

TL;DR, if it dies because no mechlab, shame on you, if it dies because **** story, shame on on PGI.

Hipstank, on 18 September 2017 - 06:22 AM, said:

Even without customization, there will be a "meta". Some Mechs and variants will outperform others. Out of the "hundreds" they're proposing, the most effective will MAYBE boil down to 10-15% of those? Like the Thunderbolt example some other people used prior, in MechWARRIOR I can't think of an instance where a Thunderbolt 5S is better to use than a 5SE as long as you have the choice between to two. This isn't table top. No matter how much you love the "lore" (some real loose definitions of that in here too) MechWarrior is essentially an FPS. It cannot be 1:1 to TT or it will be a mess.

TL;DR if I can afford to run Ferrari 488s, I will not be running Toyota Corollas whether or not I can customize either one of them. So figure out a new argument for why you feel like it's valid for there to be no customization aside from your preference.

Exactly, it comes down to though, can you afford that 5SE variant? Is it even available to you given your current contract?

You're forgetting logistics.

[DrxAbstract]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 18 September 2017 - 04:28 AM, said:

You are both correct, and very, VERY wrong.

Any mech with advanced tech, such as Endo, Ferro, ER, Pulse, any of the stuff that was developed during the Star League era, Is very, VERY likely, destroyed, or sitting in the hands of ComStar's private Military the ComGuard, until the Wolves Dragoons came by, and even then, the little bit of LosTech they did bring with them, stayed firmly in their own hands.

The average merc, was very, very lucky to see an ATLAS in battle, let alone some super, snowflake, rare as Fawk version of the Jenner sporting Ferro [which very, VERY likely, would have been retrofit out for standard armor by the 3015's anyway.]

One of the BIG things you're missing about these mechs, is that at the time we're going to be starting in, MOST mechs in the InnerSphere, that are in the hands of mercs, are held together with ducttape, bailing wire, and have maybe a bolt from the original chassis in the left toe, because it saved some repair cost!

These mechs have been blown to hell, salvaged, and blown to hell so many times, and fought in so many wars, you're surprised to find a mech with no real *quirks* to it, such as a laggy targeting computer, or a hitch in an upper armor actuator.

But I mean, go on, keep claiming how common LosTech Jenners are in 3015... please, it's cute how blind you are to the subject matter.

Firstly, I'm stating there is the possibility, the potential, that said Mech could exist, to which you yourself admit is possible. It's not dealing in such a black and white, one or the other mentality as you and Bishop apparently have. I'm well aware of the Comstar tech mongering - They didn't get everything, the wars didn't destroy everything, so let's stop pretending they did, mmmkay?

Secondly, I've made no assertions concerning the availability of said Mechs/Tech - That's something you fabricated and injected into the discussion for... what reason? Anyway, sitting there pointing your crooked little finger at me, making false claims, really is not appropriate.

As for Bishop's little tirade: The JR7-D(S) (So sorry, forgot the "S") is the only D variant with Ferro and is not canonical. The over-arching point is there were likely no production model F's or D's with Ferro-Fibrous running around, though I admit it's possible some custom variants existed with it as Ferro and Jenners both existed together for a bit before the First Succession War (Some Mechs are heirlooms, after all) but the scenario Bullock outlined would be highly unlikely. It's not moving goal posts--It's dealing with your tunnel-visioned, black and white mentality that keeps making all of these fantastical assumptions about the events in BT history that supposedly make you right and me wrong, with no actual evidence one way or the other.

As for speed-reading Sarna: Please son, I've been BT'ing for 22 years - What you're spouting off is common bloody knowledge with no actual application or relevance to the point being made; You're just a blowhard looking for any opportunity to flail your supposedly superior BT Knowledge around in everyone's face.

"You've been proven wrong..." blah blah blah. You havn't proved a single *amn thing other than that you're delusional and believe your own interpretation of BT lore as gospel. Go on... Make the statement I know you're itching to make.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

DrxAbstract, on 18 September 2017 - 06:43 AM, said:

Firstly, I'm stating there is the possibility, the potential, that said Mech could exist, to which you yourself admit is possible. It's not dealing in such a black and white, one or the other mentality as you and Bishop apparently have. I'm well aware of the Comstar tech mongering - They didn't get everything, the wars didn't destroy everything, so let's stop pretending they did, mmmkay?

Secondly, I've made no assertions concerning the availability of said Mechs/Tech - That's something you fabricated and injected into the discussion for... what reason? Anyway, sitting there pointing your crooked little finger at me, making false claims, really is not appropriate.

As for Bishop's little tirade: The JR7-D(S) (So sorry, forgot the "S") is the only D variant with Ferro and is not canonical. The over-arching point is there were likely no production model F's or D's with Ferro-Fibrous running around, though I admit it's possible some custom variants existed with it as Ferro and Jenners both existed together for a bit before the First Succession War (Some Mechs are heirlooms, after all) but the scenario Bullock outlined would be highly unlikely. It's not moving goal posts--It's dealing with your tunnel-visioned, black and white mentality that keeps making all of these fantastical assumptions about the events in BT history that supposedly make you right and me wrong, with no actual evidence one way or the other.

As for speed-reading Sarna: Please son, I've been BT'ing for 22 years - What you're spouting off is common bloody knowledge with no actual application or relevance to the point being made; You're just a blowhard looking for any opportunity to flail your supposedly superior BT Knowledge around in everyone's face.

"You've been proven wrong..." blah blah blah. You havn't proved a single *amn thing other than that you're delusional and believe your own interpretation of BT lore as gospel. Go on... Make the statement I know you're itching to make.

You assert that a FF jenner "Could" exist in 3015.

It could, I won't discount you that... it could be mothballed on a planet somewhere for god knows how long, never to see the light of day.

BUT, what the point is, is what's the actual, likelyhood, of you finding this 1, extremely rare, FF carrying Jenner, in 300+ planets around the IS? What's the over/under on that?

not very high, I assure you, in fact, so infentissimally small, that your argument regarding it is absolutely foolish.

[Almond Brown]

Zergling, on 17 September 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

No customisation is a very bad idea, since every Mechwarrior game since MW2 has had customisation. I don't think PGI realise just how big a deal this is; it is one of the fundamental features of the Mechwarrior series.

And the example of the JR7-F vs JR7-D is also bad, as ferro-fibrous armor is a common field upgrade in the lore.

At least look **** up ffs. The OP Text said it as well.

Quote

First developed by the Terran Hegemony in 2571^[1], Ferro-Fibrous armor was lost to the Inner Sphere during the Succession Wars. The Draconis Combine was the first to re-create it in 3040.

[Koniving]

So reading the article all the way through, my biggest concern...

"Even though mechs walk on two legs, its impossible to knock them over."

God damn it.
I would hope PGI would get their stuff together about knockdowns and allow for KNOCK DOWNS.

[DrxAbstract]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 18 September 2017 - 07:32 AM, said:

You assert that a FF jenner "Could" exist in 3015.

It could, I won't discount you that... it could be mothballed on a planet somewhere for god knows how long, never to see the light of day.

BUT, what the point is, is what's the actual, likelyhood, of you finding this 1, extremely rare, FF carrying Jenner, in 300+ planets around the IS? What's the over/under on that?

not very high, I assure you, in fact, so infentissimally small, that your argument regarding it is absolutely foolish.

Go back and read what Russ said, then read what you just said and what Bishop has been saying (While simultaneously defending him)... Think about it.

This isn't my position, nor am I defending it beyond saying it might be possible, but it's more a display of his disconnection from the franchise.

[Koniving]

Zergling, on 17 September 2017 - 06:46 AM, said:

No customisation is a very bad idea, since every Mechwarrior game since MW2 has had customisation. I don't think PGI realise just how big a deal this is; it is one of the fundamental features of the Mechwarrior series.

And the example of the JR7-F vs JR7-D is also bad, as ferro-fibrous armor is a common field upgrade in the lore.

(Final edit for the attempts to do this in Battletech/Megamek with the last bit of info added.)

You don't look **** up, do you?
It starts in 3015.
Goes to 3049.
Ferro-fibrous upgrades do not become commonplace (by mercs to regular mechs) until well after 3050. Even then you had to rent the facilities to do so (unless you were wealthy enough to own or have conquered them or secured them through some deal). It's still literally redesigning and replacing the armor, which is why factories did it before shipping them out. You, yourself, rarely did it unless you were a great house military force with a big facility to do so, and you likely did it en masse.

You will be playing a tiny mercenary unit consisting of one mech, and you will grow. But you will never grow to be as big as a Great House, and even the Great Houses aren't doing it very often until after the game ends.

So why the **** would you be able to do it, when the Lyrans with all their ******* cash aren't even doing it yet?

----

This said. What you do in "Creating your mech" aka "Make your gundam rules" is NOT the same as "Customization" rules in a campaign. There's a drastic difference between the two.
In a full on campaign, just changing out a weapon could take several days.
Swap that heatsink to make room for another ammo bin? Welp, there went five days.
Change the armor type?

Upwards of over a month to three with a mercenary-sized dedicated facility, several technicians working OVERTIME (including two GOD MODE techs because otherwise the colossal failures with ELITE technicians are so dramatic that you have to throw away the mech into a junk pile!, a crapload of ASTechs (assistant technicians), and somewhere of twice the money it takes to just buy a mech variant that has ferro armor is gonna be spent on allowing for all this to happen.

I tried this three times and it required some GM god-moding to get the conditions to do so. To ensure everything was done by the book this was done in Megamek HQ (wanted to do it in MekWars as that is BT's online community warfare, but it would probably take me over a year to build up a unit far enough to even attempt this). Overtime was permitted and each technician (a total of four) was given 60 hours to work with the mech for each week. Each tech had a full compliment of AsTechs of average skill. The mech was moved to the proper facility to ensure that the conditions were perfect to make the change. Use of a Power Man cargo mech was authorized to assist in the repairs, with an elite pilot and modified to have an Easy to pilot quirk to prevent any issues from his participation (which there were no issues from him in all of these attempts). The budget allotted was 13 million cbills (more than 4 times the cost of a ferro-equipped Jenner from the factory) and after each attempt, the saved game was reloaded to recreate the same conditions. The result?

• Result 1: The mech was rendered useless due to a mistake that both broke some section of the center torso structure which caused the engine damage and when I attempted to correct that, the engine got fused permanently. In the end, the mech needed to be discarded as it could no longer function without being able to replace the engine, and since that was impossible, I tried to sell it. Because of the issues, it was also given the Bad Reputation design quirk which should just cut its value in half, but I couldn't even sell it as we could not find a buyer. The roll to meet for finding a buyer even with the god-modded technician was "impossible." It was discarded out back into a trash heap. So many millions down the drain. 9,573,872 million out of 13 million was spent on the process and that all went to the toilet to flush.
  
• Result 2: Marginal success! I was able to convert the Jenner JF7-D into a ferro-armor totting mech. Unfortunately, in doing so I wound up getting the design quirk Exposed Weapon Linkage on one of my lasers. Another laser ended up with Non-Functional. The other two were fine. The SRM launcher now had "Ammo feed problems" which could lead to jamming. It also somehow lost its cooling jacket, adding an additional 2 heat every time I fired the SRM. It took another 3 weeks to attempt to fix these issues, during which one of the god modded technicians quit...and took the mech with him. (The reasoning from the die roll was he felt he wasn't getting paid enough. I had about 4 million left at the time but no option was given for me to give him a raise. As such, I had somewhere around 9 million spent.)
  
• Result 3: Encouraged by the previous marginal success, I dedicated triple the amount of money this time, a total of 39,000,000 cbills just for this project to turn one JR7-D into a Ferro-armor Jenner. The extra money was dedicated to making sure the God Modded techs were paid a lot more so that I wouldn't have a repeat of the previous issue. I was met with a colossal flop. This time during the process, despite being god modded for incredible success... one of the technicians (Scotty from Star Trek) accidentally fused a leg actuator so it one, could not move, and two, could not be replaced. It was otherwise largely successful. But what good is a mech that can't walk?

Needless to say, even with the facilities, God modded technicians, etc... that common upgrade in 3051...ain't gonna happen realistically. So try picturing it in 3015, or 3049, without the facilities, with at best maybe an elite technician, and struggling to pay your bills instead of magically getting 39,000,000 cbills "from your uncle" just to complete a project to change a JR7-D into a JR7-K, a Ferro-fibrous mech worth only 3,306,375 cbills brand new.

It's just a waste of time in lore and customization rules.

(I repeated this experiment as House Kurita in 3045, and did it in the Jenner facility owned by Luthien Armor Works on the planet of Abiy Adi.

Here, they don't actually have the Jenner JR7-Ks until 3049, and I'm at it in 3045. I was able to produce one by modifying and redesigning the Jenner JR7-K. It cost me about 5 million cbills to make the changes and didn't require as high level technicians or nearly as much time (just 3 weeks). I was able to do it on the first try with only a minor issue (the design quirk "unbalanced/off balance"). Unfortunately maintaining was difficult. Within a week it went from Great/prestine (E) to average (C) after the first maintenance.

Edited by Koniving, 18 September 2017 - 08:47 AM.

[Undercover Brother]

Frankly, I'm looking forward to the apparent lack of customization...

The REASON I'm looking forward to it is because it was stated that "different manufacturers will make different variations of weapons". That means that SOME large lasers will have shorter burn time, some will recycle faster, some will burn cooler, some will have an extra 100m range, etc...

Just because you're stuck with a specific loadout (e.g. 2 MedLaser, 1 LLaser, 1SRM6) doesn't mean you can't swap out your stock LLaser with the fabled increased power and range (and heat) of the same Sunglow Type 2 LLaser found in the Thunderbolt's right arm. Does your mech carry an AC20 that tends to jam? Swap out the stock AC20 for the ever-reliable Tomodzuru AC Mount Type 2 that you salvaged from an enemy Hunchback.

The BIGGEST issue with ANYTHING in MW5 isn't necessarily the cost. Its because you're on a fixed timeline. ANY repairs, reloads or customization (not to mention pilots that need to recover from fatigue/injury) takes TIME. Every hour/day that your pilots are laid up, a mech is getting repaired/rearmed, OR BEING CUSTOMIZED, is going to cost your Merc unit TIME for travel, for techs to work on other projects (i.e. Swap out a LLaser for a MLaser on a Panther, or get armor replaced on both your Centurion and Orion), meaning that you may sacrifice better contracts, or you may not be able to pick up that new ace pilot who's looking for a new contract. You don't get that time back.

In every Mechwarrior game so far, all weapons are exactly the same, and the economy is instantaneous. Supposedly, MW5 will change that. That alone, adds a depth of immersion and gameplay that makes the entire experience replayable, over and over again. Not a bad investment.

Edited by Undercover Brother, 18 September 2017 - 08:54 AM.

[Alan Davion]

DrxAbstract, on 17 September 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

Considering Ferro Fibrous itself was developed in 2571, Jenner production began in 2784 versus the Succession Wars at 2786 and the JR7-D being a fictional(non-canonical) variant with no official year of production... Draw some conclusions.

Draw some wrong conclusions you mean. You seriously contradicted yourself there because, you know, because of the devastation of the Succession Wars lambasting Humanity back almost to the bloody BRONZE AGE, they lost the technology to produce stuff like Endo Steel Structure and Ferro Fibrous Armor.

Also, the JR7-D Jenner is the BASIC model, and its year of production is clearly stated as 2784, and the Succession Wars ended up destroying literally ALL the Jenner production factories by about 2848. House Kurita had built so many Jenners in the 64 years they'd been able to build them, starting production again was not considered a high priority until 3046 when Theodore Kurita started rebuilding a Jenner production line.

I will admit, yes, it could be entirely possible that there could have been some JR7-As or Ds built with Ferro armor before or during the Succession Wars, but they'd either be as rare as the proverbial UNICORN by about 3005, or they more likely left the Inner Sphere with Kerensky.

[Thorn Hallis]

Calm, people, calm. There are no internetz to win today.

Undercover Brother, on 18 September 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

The REASON I'm looking forward to it is because it was stated that "different manufacturers will make different variations of weapons". That means that SOME large lasers will have shorter burn time, some will recycle faster, some will burn cooler, some will have an extra 100m range, etc...

That would be pretty cool, but I guess the only difference between those weapons will be be price, look and availability.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 18 September 2017 - 08:50 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Koniving, on 18 September 2017 - 08:03 AM, said:

(Final edit for the attempts to do this in Battletech/Megamek with the last bit of info added.)

You don't look **** up, do you?
It starts in 3015.
Goes to 3049.
Ferro-fibrous upgrades do not become commonplace (by mercs to regular mechs) until well after 3050. Even then you had to rent the facilities to do so (unless you were wealthy enough to own or have conquered them or secured them through some deal). It's still literally redesigning and replacing the armor, which is why factories did it before shipping them out. You, yourself, rarely did it unless you were a great house military force with a big facility to do so, and you likely did it en masse.

You will be playing a tiny mercenary unit consisting of one mech, and you will grow. But you will never grow to be as big as a Great House, and even the Great Houses aren't doing it very often until after the game ends.

So why the **** would you be able to do it, when the Lyrans with all their ******* cash aren't even doing it yet?

----

This said. What you do in "Creating your mech" aka "Make your gundam rules" is NOT the same as "Customization" rules in a campaign. There's a drastic difference between the two.
In a full on campaign, just changing out a weapon could take several days.
Swap that heatsink to make room for another ammo bin? Welp, there went five days.
Change the armor type?

Upwards of over a month to three with a mercenary-sized dedicated facility, several technicians working OVERTIME (including two GOD MODE techs because otherwise the colossal failures with ELITE technicians are so dramatic that you have to throw away the mech into a junk pile!, a crapload of ASTechs (assistant technicians), and somewhere of twice the money it takes to just buy a mech variant that has ferro armor is gonna be spent on allowing for all this to happen.

I tried this three times and it required some GM god-moding to get the conditions to do so. To ensure everything was done by the book this was done in Megamek HQ (wanted to do it in MekWars as that is BT's online community warfare, but it would probably take me over a year to build up a unit far enough to even attempt this). Overtime was permitted and each technician (a total of four) was given 60 hours to work with the mech for each week. Each tech had a full compliment of AsTechs of average skill. The mech was moved to the proper facility to ensure that the conditions were perfect to make the change. Use of a Power Man cargo mech was authorized to assist in the repairs, with an elite pilot and modified to have an Easy to pilot quirk to prevent any issues from his participation (which there were no issues from him in all of these attempts). The budget allotted was 13 million cbills (more than 4 times the cost of a ferro-equipped Jenner from the factory) and after each attempt, the saved game was reloaded to recreate the same conditions. The result?

• Result 1: The mech was rendered useless due to a mistake that both broke some section of the center torso structure which caused the engine damage and when I attempted to correct that, the engine got fused permanently. In the end, the mech needed to be discarded as it could no longer function without being able to replace the engine, and since that was impossible, I tried to sell it. Because of the issues, it was also given the Bad Reputation design quirk which should just cut its value in half, but I couldn't even sell it as we could not find a buyer. The roll to meet for finding a buyer even with the god-modded technician was "impossible." It was discarded out back into a trash heap. So many millions down the drain. 9,573,872 million out of 13 million was spent on the process and that all went to the toilet to flush.
  
• Result 2: Marginal success! I was able to convert the Jenner JF7-D into a ferro-armor totting mech. Unfortunately, in doing so I wound up getting the design quirk Exposed Weapon Linkage on one of my lasers. Another laser ended up with Non-Functional. The other two were fine. The SRM launcher now had "Ammo feed problems" which could lead to jamming. It also somehow lost its cooling jacket, adding an additional 2 heat every time I fired the SRM. It took another 3 weeks to attempt to fix these issues, during which one of the god modded technicians quit...and took the mech with him. (The reasoning from the die roll was he felt he wasn't getting paid enough. I had about 4 million left at the time but no option was given for me to give him a raise. As such, I had somewhere around 9 million spent.)
  
• Result 3: Encouraged by the previous marginal success, I dedicated triple the amount of money this time, a total of 39,000,000 cbills just for this project to turn one JR7-D into a Ferro-armor Jenner. The extra money was dedicated to making sure the God Modded techs were paid a lot more so that I wouldn't have a repeat of the previous issue. I was met with a colossal flop. This time during the process, despite being god modded for incredible success... one of the technicians (Scotty from Star Trek) accidentally fused a leg actuator so it one, could not move, and two, could not be replaced. It was otherwise largely successful. But what good is a mech that can't walk?

Needless to say, even with the facilities, God modded technicians, etc... that common upgrade in 3051...ain't gonna happen realistically. So try picturing it in 3015, or 3049, without the facilities, with at best maybe an elite technician, and struggling to pay your bills instead of magically getting 39,000,000 cbills "from your uncle" just to complete a project to change a JR7-D into a JR7-K, a Ferro-fibrous mech worth only 3,306,375 cbills brand new.


It's just a waste of time in lore and customization rules.

(I repeated this experiment as House Kurita in 3045, and did it in the Jenner facility owned by Luthien Armor Works on the planet of Abiy Adi.

Here, they don't actually have the Jenner JR7-Ks until 3049, and I'm at it in 3045. I was able to produce one by modifying and redesigning the Jenner JR7-K. It cost me about 5 million cbills to make the changes and didn't require as high level technicians or nearly as much time (just 3 weeks). I was able to do it on the first try with only a minor issue (the design quirk "unbalanced/off balance"). Unfortunately maintaining was difficult. Within a week it went from Great/prestine (E) to average (C) after the first maintenance.

Quoting in full, because it's apparent, some fools don't understand how hard this **** is.

Just for reiteration. 39mill, couldn't get the results for a mech you can buy for 3.4mill.... let that sink in... even with broken, god modded technicians and the proper timeline.

Let that sink in, to all of you who keep trying to champion "Unfettered customization" in MW5... I mean, at this point, I say they should through it in, just so I can laugh as you all bankrupt yourselves trying to do this impossible stuff.

We've been spoiled, for 20 years, in Mechwarrior, thinking these upgrades are "simple" they're not... they are so far from being simple.

[Koniving]

DrxAbstract, on 17 September 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

Considering Ferro Fibrous itself was developed in 2571, Jenner production began in 2784 versus the Succession Wars at 2786 and the JR7-D being a fictional(non-canonical) variant with no official year of production... Draw some conclusions.

Point in case is not "I never make mistakes.", but nice strawman. The point is: "I'm the CEO of ----- company and repeatedly make incorrect statements regarding my product that could have been prevented had I taken a minute of my time to actually look into what I was talking about to know the premise and provide reassurance to my investors and customers that I have some inkling of an idea of what I am doing."

Have a good night, Bishop.

You missed the "Year of Extinction" in Ferro Armor and the year of "Reintroduction/ rediscovery."

For further information, the original JR7-K was produced by the Diplan Mechyards on the planet Ozawa, the facility was destroyed in 2837. However in 2810, the technological know-how and means to build new Ferro armor was already long gone. The scientists who did know went with the First Exodus along with Aleksandr Kerensky to take the might of the military forces away from the Inner Sphere. Those who didn't go were slaughtered during the technological witch hunts to remove the advantages that rival houses had. There were many technologies which fell victim to this.

So the ability to even make Ferro armor again doesn't come up until 3040.
JR7-K doesn't start production again until 3049.

So, yeah... You aren't gonna make your own.

One more thing, the JR7-D is not only canonical, it is the base model. It is found in the TRO-3039 AND in the TRO 3025 Revised, AND in the TRO 3025 original alongside the Marauder, Warhammer, and so on.

Pics as follows...
3025 Original.

3025, Revised (where they took out the unseen and added some other mechs instead).

3039.


So the point isn't that you never make mistakes, you "make incorrect statements regarding machines, materials, production years, and the canonicity therein that could have been prevented had I taken a minute of my time to actually look into what I was talking about."

(Mkay I'm done now. )

Edited by Koniving, 18 September 2017 - 09:10 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Koniving, on 18 September 2017 - 08:59 AM, said:

snip

While I agree and this is all true, there are two (very small, but still) possibilities where a JR7-K might surface before FF was rediscovered - Comstar and the Arkab Legion.

Comstar supplied the Draconis Combine with advanced tech in exchange for the creation of the Free Rasalhague Republic. While they stripped most of the Mechs down, some where overlooked, so the possibilty is there.

And then there is the Arkab Legion, that for whatever reasons still had Star League-era 'Mechs at the end of the Succession Wars (guess noone can explain that, but hey).

[Bishop Steiner]

KuroNyra, on 18 September 2017 - 02:08 AM, said:

Can we just make an exception for ferro armor for the urbanmech? Pretty pleaaaaase? :3

since when does it need it?

[Kitty Bacon]

I for one am excited for what they plan on doing to MW5 with the fixed loadouts and other possibilities. Heck, they could take it a bit further... Different manufacturers of weapons.

For example: An AC5 on a Marauder could behave completely different from an AC5 on a Shadow Hawk. Could be slower reload, higher caliber or longer range between the two weapon systems because they were made by different companies like in lore. An AC 20 could be a Gatling style weapon that does 1 damage across 20 projectiles over the 1 slug that does 20 damage. Not like a UAC btw, I mean like an AC2 style with a faster reload. Just food for thought.

It would be nice if they had details like this to make each mech variant unique and give like, 10 different versions of a single weapon system. Plus it could be upgrades like that that could make the mechlab different. Be locked to a lore loadout but can swap the weapons for different manufacturers for different weapon characteristics.

I do not know the full details of the game, but I like everything I have seen so far. I just hope PGI does not mess it up. I want it to be like I am actually in the Battletech universe where its easier to run a stock Shadow Hawk because its cheaper to repair and you might lose it as opposed to. have a fully customized mech be lost in a game but you do not really lose it. I want to have that fear of losing a mech and have it be gone forever if I miss up.

I want a fear of death be real.

[Bishop Steiner]

jss78, on 18 September 2017 - 02:19 AM, said:

I got an anecdote about this. In a MegaMek campaign I've been running this year, one of my officers got, through miraculous die rolls, a genuine Star League era Hermes 1S as a starting 'mech. Complete with Endo AND Ferro. Moving at 9/14 and well-armoured, it was AWESOME for 3000AD (my starting year).

However, going by the MegaMek campaign rules, if it ever got hit, I'd never be able to repair the armour or structure. Also, every week I deployed the 'mech, there was a significant possibility that I'd be attacked by Comstar etc. mysterious big guys, to take possession of the 'mech. So if I ran it, I'd risk losing not only the 'mech but I'd be putting the mechwarrior at risk also.

So while those 'mech exist, at least for my merc unit, it became something of a white elephant. It was there, it was fabulous, and I absolutely couldn't run it.

Eventually, through an event roll, a mysterious buyer offered me two lostech-era 'mechs in exchange for the Hermes. I took the 'mechs and never looked back.



This is true, but I'd think here some role-play and getting in character will help. And also presentation of the campaign and the in-game economy so that the limited customization makes sense to the player. If youhave to make do with light scouts for a while, you'll love it when you get your hands on a nice Wolverine 6R (or if you're especially lucky, a 6M).

I love the mechlab in MWO, but I think that level of customization would make no sense in a SW-era merc campaign.

That is pretty much the extent of it. When such lostech (aka Lost Technology for our more abstract...or is that obtuse? audience members), is discovered, it's not actually maintainable. Best use is (once NAIS becomes a thing) selling it to the NAIS....

Of course, again going back to that Jenner... that's not a worry since there never was an original SLDF model with high tech... jsut the later Combine Upgrade just before the Clan Invasion.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 September 2017 - 09:36 AM.

[Koniving]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 18 September 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

We've been spoiled, for 20 years, in Mechwarrior, thinking these upgrades are "simple" they're not... they are so far from being simple.

Wrote "modifying and redesigning the JR7-K" by accident, it's supposed to be the D again but JR7-K stuck in my head when I wrote it from the previous sentence.

And indeed, if you do a campaign and try to run this with customization rather than BT's build your own mech rules, it is an arduous task even in 3051 for mercenaries. 11 years after the reintroduction of Ferro and 2 years after MW5: Mercs will end.

As noted in the last paragraph though, it was reasonably easier for the Great Houses to do it by literally having the proper factory (or any high end factory/facility 'technically') do the job due to the bonuses they give you for the die rolls, but even then I still had a problem that I picked up (being unbalanced) versus buying the mech flat out built from scratch.

(And it took all morning to do this, too, because I was curious. It also took more than 3 tries but those were the three that actually had the right facility in use. The others were even more dramatic flops but the attempts were done in simple maintenance or repair bays like the one you see in MW5: Merc's trailer [that being a maintenance bay]. In one case, 7 people died when trying it from a repair bay. Unfortunately megamek HQ didn't have an explanation ready to throw at me, which was disappointing I was really curious about that as I had never had people die when trying to modify a mech before.)

[MechaBattler]

I like the idea of having to buy variants to fill roles. Rather than having your mech act as swiss army knife because you can swap weapons out with ease

I see taking Russ' words too literally is still a thing. The Jenner was only an example.You know exactly what he meant. If you can swap upgrades and weapons with ease then it trivializes a lot of variants.

Still I think they could have customization. But limited by your techs, their skills, time, and money. If half your mechs are too damaged because your techs were busy upgrading one mech. That might be a nice way of keeping customization limited, but still allowing some.

Edited by MechaBattler, 18 September 2017 - 09:27 AM.