325 replies to this topic

[jss78]

I agree both with PGI's decision and with Russ's reasoning behind it.

In a single-player campaign, I don't much care about customization -- so long as enough variants are available to provide variety.

I can agree to simple weapon swaps, something like the HBS game is supposed to have.

As far as "most stock builds are junk" -- so what? You're not going against MWO players in meta boats. You're going against an AI, also running said stock builds. Don't like your 'mech? Buy or salvage a better one -- if you can. Welcome to 3025 merc life.

[Zergling]

There actually are TT rules for mech customisation; I'm not sure where they first appeared, but I remember reading them in Maximum Tech.

IIRC, the easiest customisations are to armor, or replacing a piece of equipment with another piece of equipment that has the same weight and slots.
Eg, replacing a Medium Laser with a C3 Slave; both 1 ton and 1 slot each.

Second hardest is when a piece of equipment is swapped, and either tons or slots are different, but not both. Eg, swapping a PPC for a Large Pulse laser; both are 7 tons, but 3 vs 2 slots.

The hardest customisation is when both tons and slots are different, like swapping a Medium Pulse Laser (2 tons, 1 slot) for an ECM (1.5 tons, 2 slots).

Edited by Zergling, 17 September 2017 - 10:43 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

jss78, on 17 September 2017 - 10:36 PM, said:

I agree both with PGI's decision and with Russ's reasoning behind it.

In a single-player campaign, I don't much care about customization -- so long as enough variants are available to provide variety.

I can agree to simple weapon swaps, something like the HBS game is supposed to have.

As far as "most stock builds are junk" -- so what? You're not going against MWO players in meta boats. You're going against an AI, also running said stock builds. Don't like your 'mech? Buy or salvage a better one -- if you can. Welcome to 3025 merc life.

Well ya know... Someone actually living in said universe would probably prefer having a Mech at all. We're looking at this thing from the outside-upside, in and down--We know there's other stuff, better stuff, around... They probably don't.

[KuroNyra]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 September 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:

Actually, it does. Those mechs were extinct. And of course back to the Jenner? The model with Ferro (JR7-K for the record)wasn't even built until 3047. None of the earlier models had it to begin with.

So please tell me more about that non canonical JR7-D while you continue to flout your ignorance, please?

You'e moved your goalposts about 4 times already, and so far have been proven wrong each time, so why not go for 5?

I'd say I'll wait, but more likely I'll laugh over your continued flailing with my morning coffee.

Mmm. Also...while you are trying to speed read Saran posts to sound like you know what you are talking about (and failing spectacularly) maybe look up the Comstar operations to sabotage and destroy remaining Star League tech outside of their own control.

So back to the original point you protested so vehemently?

Ferro was for all intents and purposes extinct in the IS by 2864. A few individual units surely did carry it after.. and every time they were shot after that? Oh yeah, they had to have the armor replaced with existing normal armor. Sorry no Healers to magically make heal up. And to boot, there were no Jenners with Ferro until 3047 to begin with, so....oops?

So good luck retrofitting that extinct armor onto your mech.

Can we just make an exception for ferro armor for the urbanmech? Pretty pleaaaaase? :3

[MW Waldorf Statler]

No Custom Mechs..only Variants ? thats find in the Game or by in the Market for ? MCs ...the New Buy a Mech Collect Game after MWO

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 18 September 2017 - 02:19 AM.

[jss78]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 September 2017 - 11:12 PM, said:

Ferro was for all intents and purposes extinct in the IS by 2864. A few individual units surely did carry it after.. and every time they were shot after that? Oh yeah, they had to have the armor replaced with existing normal armor. Sorry no Healers to magically make heal up. And to boot, there were no Jenners with Ferro until 3047 to begin with, so....oops?

So good luck retrofitting that extinct armor onto your mech.

I got an anecdote about this. In a MegaMek campaign I've been running this year, one of my officers got, through miraculous die rolls, a genuine Star League era Hermes 1S as a starting 'mech. Complete with Endo AND Ferro. Moving at 9/14 and well-armoured, it was AWESOME for 3000AD (my starting year).

However, going by the MegaMek campaign rules, if it ever got hit, I'd never be able to repair the armour or structure. Also, every week I deployed the 'mech, there was a significant possibility that I'd be attacked by Comstar etc. mysterious big guys, to take possession of the 'mech. So if I ran it, I'd risk losing not only the 'mech but I'd be putting the mechwarrior at risk also.

So while those 'mech exist, at least for my merc unit, it became something of a white elephant. It was there, it was fabulous, and I absolutely couldn't run it.

Eventually, through an event roll, a mysterious buyer offered me two lostech-era 'mechs in exchange for the Hermes. I took the 'mechs and never looked back.

DrxAbstract, on 17 September 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

Well ya know... Someone actually living in said universe would probably prefer having a Mech at all. We're looking at this thing from the outside-upside, in and down--We know there's other stuff, better stuff, around... They probably don't.

This is true, but I'd think here some role-play and getting in character will help. And also presentation of the campaign and the in-game economy so that the limited customization makes sense to the player. If youhave to make do with light scouts for a while, you'll love it when you get your hands on a nice Wolverine 6R (or if you're especially lucky, a 6M).

I love the mechlab in MWO, but I think that level of customization would make no sense in a SW-era merc campaign.

[oldradagast]

JC Daxion, on 17 September 2017 - 08:37 PM, said:

Where exactly does it say that you will have no customization? I missed that part,..

All it says, it won't have unlimited customization, and mech's will have clearly defined rolls.

The only customization mentioned was swapping weapon brands, and if I can't add Ferro as stated in that article - not Endo, which I get - but Ferro armor, it is unlikely much of any other customization will be allowed.

That being said, my main complaint is not against PGI, who *may* screw this up, but against the obnoxious legion of "no customization, ever!" players who've crept out of the woodwork and compared swapping a heatsink for a ton of ammo to: extreme powergaming, destroying their childhood, and committing a high crime against the entire "spirit of Battletech" or some other crap. If PGI listens to them - a group more hellbent on "punishing" MWO players and proving that their way of playing Battletech is the only "right" way, MW5 will have no customization and will flop.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 September 2017 - 03:29 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

KuroNyra, on 18 September 2017 - 02:08 AM, said:

Can we just make an exception for ferro armor for the urbanmech? Pretty pleaaaaase? :3

Endo is better in an urbie.

[oldradagast]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 17 September 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

And I've mentioned, at least 3 times now, that THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE GETTING.

Jesus, act oppressed harder man.

Then enjoy your game - but when it fails, I'm not interested in listening to you or anyone else whine that the "real problem" is that nobody else wanted to only play Battletech "the right way" - your way, we're to believe.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 September 2017 - 03:35 AM.

[Zergling]

oldradagast, on 18 September 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

Then enjoy your game - but when it fails, I'm not interested in listening to you or anyone else whine that the "real problem" is that nobody else wanted to only play Battletech "the right way" - your way, we're to believe.

I can pretty much guarantee that a common criticism of MW5 will be limited customisation.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 17 September 2017 - 07:24 PM, said:

There is no multiplayer no MW5, so your reason for wanting a mechlab is literally moot.

I said my reason for wanting a mechlab was to try out all kinds of crazy builds in singleplayer. You know, something that doesn't work out well in MWO because it just would lose the game for your team.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

DrxAbstract, on 17 September 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

Here's where your logic goes overboard without a life jacket:
Just because Ferro-Fibrous, and all the other irrelevant tech you decided to rattle on about, wasn't available for MANUFACTURING Mechs, or that Mech Production was in that great of a state as it was, does not mean the Mechs still operational at the time ceased to ****ing exist... Wow, what an incredible thought!

You are both correct, and very, VERY wrong.

Any mech with advanced tech, such as Endo, Ferro, ER, Pulse, any of the stuff that was developed during the Star League era, Is very, VERY likely, destroyed, or sitting in the hands of ComStar's private Military the ComGuard, until the Wolves Dragoons came by, and even then, the little bit of LosTech they did bring with them, stayed firmly in their own hands.

The average merc, was very, very lucky to see an ATLAS in battle, let alone some super, snowflake, rare as Fawk version of the Jenner sporting Ferro [which very, VERY likely, would have been retrofit out for standard armor by the 3015's anyway.]

One of the BIG things you're missing about these mechs, is that at the time we're going to be starting in, MOST mechs in the InnerSphere, that are in the hands of mercs, are held together with ducttape, bailing wire, and have maybe a bolt from the original chassis in the left toe, because it saved some repair cost!

These mechs have been blown to hell, salvaged, and blown to hell so many times, and fought in so many wars, you're surprised to find a mech with no real *quirks* to it, such as a laggy targeting computer, or a hitch in an upper armor actuator.

But I mean, go on, keep claiming how common LosTech Jenners are in 3015... please, it's cute how blind you are to the subject matter.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

oldradagast, on 18 September 2017 - 03:33 AM, said:

Then enjoy your game - but when it fails, I'm not interested in listening to you or anyone else whine that the "real problem" is that nobody else wanted to only play Battletech "the right way" - your way, we're to believe.

IT CAN'T fail, jesus man, get that through your thick skull, even if it doesn't sell well, so what, it was made, and it's installed on my computer by the time it's decided it's a "Failure".And I can play it.

MWO will still be here for all the customization hounds. So will every other iteration of Mechwarrior. And I'll have my version, and we'll all be happy while the IP languishes for another 10+ years, because you couldn't get onboard with a different take on Mechwarrior.

Dakota1000, on 18 September 2017 - 04:12 AM, said:

I said my reason for wanting a mechlab was to try out all kinds of crazy builds in singleplayer. You know, something that doesn't work out well in MWO because it just would lose the game for your team.

No you said

Quote

Whole point of singleplayer is to be able to play around with some of the weird builds that you know wouldn't work in a multiplayer game, and to have a bit of freedom.

You specifically stated. "That you know wouldn't work in multiplayer." Meaning you admit that there is a huge disparity due to the free, open mechlab, that causes an imbalance.

Also, there's a mech for everyone with the variants, you might not think it, but there is, it might not be exactly to your taste, but you'll find that one mech with a sweetspot you love, trust me on that one.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 18 September 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:

IT CAN'T fail, jesus man, get that through your thick skull, even if it doesn't sell well, so what, it was made, and it's installed on my computer by the time it's decided it's a "Failure".And I can play it.

MWO will still be here for all the customization hounds. So will every other iteration of Mechwarrior. And I'll have my version, and we'll all be happy while the IP languishes for another 10+ years, because you couldn't get onboard with a different take on Mechwarrior.


No you said


You specifically stated. "That you know wouldn't work in multiplayer." Meaning you admit that there is a huge disparity due to the free, open mechlab, that causes an imbalance.

Also, there's a mech for everyone with the variants, you might not think it, but there is, it might not be exactly to your taste, but you'll find that one mech with a sweetspot you love, trust me on that one.

The thing is, it can fail, the game itself MW5 might come out, but if its bad, then the series is doomed for another 15 years. People want to see a good restart to the series that brings back some of the core features of the previous versions, such as mechlab, and adds in modern day graphics and compatibility.

Also, I state that it wouldn't work in multiplayer because in multiplayer you're in a competitive gamemode, so you must bring the best builds if you'd like to compete. Even if MWO didn't have mechlab we'd just be using one variant in particular that happened to be configured best from the start competitively speaking. In MW5 you'll be in singleplayer facing off against bots and AI and you have no obligations to carry your team, so you can take a break, have some fun, and run some crazy builds of your choice without messing up anyone else's game. As I said in my quotes that you fail to understand, its to have a bit of freedom. Why does it matter to you if there is customization or not if you're on the side that doesn't want to customize? You're not forced to customize your mechs in a game with mechlab, you can go and RP all you want about being a poor merc without the ability to swap out a gun in the field even, but removing it from the game entirely removes a huge chunk of the playerbase's fun.

I'm really doubting there's a variant for every possible weird option I'd like to try out, especially on certain mechs, since my whole point of using mechlab is to try out every potential combination that seems really weird or like it might not work or have it focus on one odd niche in particular. Like, I doubt there's a 20 HMG Rifleman sitting around stock somewhere.

Getting rid of people's ability to go and do replays using customized mechs for various tasks reduces replayability. In general reducing player freedom to do what they want in singleplayer focused games and not letting them come up with out of the box options to complete a task is a failing.

Edited by Dakota1000, 18 September 2017 - 05:30 AM.

[Hipstank]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 18 September 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:

IT CAN'T fail, jesus man, get that through your thick skull, even if it doesn't sell well, so what, it was made, and it's installed on my computer by the time it's decided it's a "Failure".And I can play it.

MWO will still be here for all the customization hounds. So will every other iteration of Mechwarrior. And I'll have my version, and we'll all be happy while the IP languishes for another 10+ years, because you couldn't get onboard with a different take on Mechwarrior.

Hey. I don't post a lot--clearly. I just need you to give me your definition of failure, because I'm a little confused especially based off of your own post.

[Fiona Marshe]

Rifleman-3N, Catapult-C1 and Warhammer-6R will be my 'go to' heavies in MW5. A good player can still make them function in MWO as Stock.

I take them out for a spin when I'm in the mood, and unless a death-ball rolls over the crest, I can pump out 300-500 damage without an issue. 800-1000 on a good day.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

If all of you saying "it'll fail" let it fail simply because "Muh Mechlab" Then it's failure wasn't on the gameplay, or the story, or the actual content of the game itself, it's due to a slight some of the userbase felt because they could not adapt to change.

If it, fails, then it fails, it'll still be installed on my harddrive, playable, and I'll be enjoying it even if you do not. *shrugs* That, is what I'm getting at, If you feel it's a failure, FINE. I likely will not, and I'll be enjoying it long after you're stuck with MWO's ****** progression and continually whining about not having enough maps and modes.

Dakota1000, on 18 September 2017 - 04:54 AM, said:

Getting rid of people's ability to go and do replays using customized mechs for various tasks reduces replayability. In general reducing player freedom to do what they want in singleplayer focused games and not letting them come up with out of the box options to complete a task is a failing.

You have 20 years of other games to go get your mechlab fix on, go do that.

Also, over 300 planets, with branching story paths, and a dynamic campaign... But you're going to whine more about "Muh Replayability."

Please, get a reality check.

Edited by CMDR Sunset Shimmer, 18 September 2017 - 05:57 AM.

[Raso]

Mech games are more about fighting other mechs just like car games are more about racing. While certainly not a requirement he garage/mechlab concept has been an integral of mech games for eons. Having no customization in MW5 would be like if the next Forza forced you to only use stock cars. I could see if it was a side entry in the series or even a new IP all together but since it is ridding on the coattails of past Mech Warrior games it seems not just lazy but in poor taste.

That's my 2 cents.

[Athom83]

I'm not reading through 10 pages of argument/whine (I made it a few pages then gave up), so I'll just be saying my 2 cents.

Reading through, I do not see where they say "No customization". Yes, it does say that customization will be restricted but it doesn't outright say "No" to it. What Russ says seems to be implying is that you can't swap out Armor/Structure types nor switch engines around, yet it seems to be inferring that you may be able to swap weapons around of similar types. "Mechs, pilots, technicians, weapon systems- everything you need...". The closest that I've seen to hit the mark;

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 17 September 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

I've always advocated here, that a +/- 1 option is best.
IE if you have a medium laser in a spot, you can drop it for a small, or upgrade it to a large, but you could not put in a PPC.
If you have a small laser, you could drop it to upgrade to a medium,downgrade to a flamer or install TAG, but that's it.

Yet, that is still not quite there. Medium lasers +1 is not Large laser. The tonnage and power requirements are a bit to great for that leap. Medium laser +1 would be Medium Pulse lasers (when the timeline advances to when they get implemented). I may be a bit optimistic, yet what the wording/tone seems to be inferring is that weapons from certain "classes" would be able to be changed around (Small laser up to Medium Pulse, (ER)LL up to (ER)PPC, AC/2 to UAC/5, etc) while other weapons on some mechs may not be changed due to being inbuilt systems (PPC arms on the Warhammer, LRM20 chest of the Highlander, etc).

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 18 September 2017 - 05:52 AM, said:

If all of you saying "it'll fail" let it fail simply because "Muh Mechlab" Then it's failure wasn't on the gameplay, or the story, or the actual content of the game itself, it's due to a slight some of the userbase felt because they could not adapt to change.

If it, fails, then it fails, it'll still be installed on my harddrive, playable, and I'll be enjoying it even if you do not. *shrugs* That, is what I'm getting at, If you feel it's a failure, FINE. I likely will not, and I'll be enjoying it long after you're stuck with MWO's ****** progression and continually whining about not having enough maps and modes.



You have 20 years of other games to go get your mechlab fix on, go do that.

Also, over 300 planets, with branching story paths, and a dynamic campaign... But you're going to whine more about "Muh Replayability."

Please, get a reality check.

I see there's no changing your opinions on the matter. You'll have your fun either way, great for you and all that, but I'm not so selfish. I'm hoping that they make the game good, and provide to as much of the playerbase as possible to boost the player counts, sales, ratings, and chances of sequels. MW5 being the end of the series rather than the rebirth would be a shame.

Why are you so against others being able to do something that doesn't affect how you play the game anyway?