93 replies to this topic

[Snazzy Dragon]

look at this mediocre robot

let's nerf it even though there are clearly better and arguably overperforming options

also let's nerf some lights

-pgi

[MadRover]

Yeonne Greene, on 18 September 2017 - 08:22 PM, said:

I'm aware of the Nightstar's strengths. I'm also aware of the fact that the weapons payload you can put on it is not even a little bit exceptional. You will cap out around 60 damage (if even that) just like you do with every other IS assault, and we've already got the ultimate in cockpit level mounts with the faster-running Battlemaster, and the Battlemaster actually still has some very good quirks. 52 points of pure vomit from a Battlemaster 3M is likely more valuable than anything you can put on a Nightstar. unless you dramatically exceed the value of the Battlemaster's quirks and I simply don't see a good chance of that happening.

What you're forgetting is that the Nightstar will be able to do what the MCII can do which is Gauss. The Nightstar will be the IS response for the MCII and since everything pans out at 450m and less (usually), you'll have to look at overall structural integrity which I have a feeling the Nightstar is going to have more of compared to the MCII. Yeah, sounds like more power creep in favor of IS on the assault end, Clan for the medium (Arctic Wolf).

[Gas Guzzler]

MadRover, on 18 September 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

What you're forgetting is that the Nightstar will be able to do what the MCII can do which is Gauss. The Nightstar will be the IS response for the MCII and since everything pans out at 450m and less (usually), you'll have to look at overall structural integrity which I have a feeling the Nightstar is going to have more of compared to the MCII. Yeah, sounds like more power creep in favor of IS on the assault end, Clan for the medium (Arctic Wolf).

Deathstrike alpha with dual gauss and lasers: 80-94
Nightstar alpha with dual gauss and lasers: 62

Yeah, totally an answer to the Mad Cat Mk. II. He is not forgetting, he is just one step ahead.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 September 2017 - 10:20 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Also, it's not like we don't already have three other 'Mechs that can punch up to 60-65 damage with Gauss. The MAL-KO, MAL-2P, and BNC-3S can all combine Gauss and lasers to get there, but nobody does that on any of them because why bother? A pure laser-vomit BNC-3M can do the same thing with far and away better mobility.

And at the end of the day, for all that trouble, those IS Assaults are getting compared to Clan Heavies. Lul.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 September 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

The large mobility nerf to the SNV-1 rubs me a little bit the wrong away. I kind of felt like that was its defining trait over the MAD-IIC which has access to a much larger engine, and now its mobility is the same. It was nice to feel a little bit more spry in exchange for the ~12 kph lower speed.

The SNV-1 now went right past the agility of the -3 and the -A, and now shares the same agility as the Boiler and the -C.

And still.. the MCII still has the crown in the assault category, so it probably could have stayed where it was..

And I was just starting to like my Supernova a little bit. Though it had trouble repositioning with fast moving teams. Guess I'll just go ahead and swap right back over to the Marauder IIC and be faster, just about as agile if not more so, and have the exact same damage output.
This balance patch sucked to be honest.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 18 September 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

It is PGI's intention to have Warhawk sniping to be less good than before. Besides, heat containment is getting a noticeable buff, which will help DHS spamming mechs such as the Warhawk.

Heat containment won't help the Warhawk.......heat containment helps you with burst damage but what stops cERPPC boats from being meta is sustained damage, and that's something heat containment has nothing to do with (but heat gen does).

El Bandito, on 18 September 2017 - 08:21 PM, said:

Gauss vomit will be nerfed sooner or later. For now Chris seems to be pre-emptively toning down the SNV-1 due to heat containment change. MAD-IIC is already slapped down.

Yeah, it will be nerfed once the MC-II is for c-bills which is still stupid. The SVN-1 doesn't need toning down because it STILL competes with the MAD-IIC for laser vomit assaults and heat containment doesn't do much for either of them except maybe let them squeeze 2 lasers in after their 2 consecutive alphas which they can already do.

[Jackal Noble]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 September 2017 - 10:19 PM, said:

Deathstrike alpha with dual gauss and lasers: 80-94
Nightstar alpha with dual gauss and lasers: 62

Yeah, totally an answer to the Mad Cat Mk. II. He is not forgetting, he is just one step ahead.

Which one of those that you laid out is actually sustainable?
Sure you have an 80 point alpha, with a 1.1 heat efficiency. So you can fire and then go back into a corner for 15 seconds, while you cool down

And whats up with the 94? with Heavy large lasers? eww no.
Just because you can, does not absolutely mean you should. That build is even less sustainable. After you unleash your gauss, your target is supposed to sit there while you draw designs on his armor with that atrocious burn time? That's a terrible, terrible build. Again, unless you are hiding behind your team.


I prefer the 72 with 6 ER-Meds, 1.29 efficiency and 70+ kph. With that you can actually run and gun a bit more than letting your team take the brunt of the enemy team's ire.

[Snazzy Dragon]

JackalBeast, on 19 September 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

Which one of those that you laid out is actually sustainable?
Sure you have an 80 point alpha, with a 1.1 heat efficiency. So you can fire and then go back into a corner for 15 seconds, while you cool down

And whats up with the 94? with Heavy large lasers? eww no.
Just because you can, does not absolutely mean you should. That build is even less sustainable. After you unleash your gauss, your target is supposed to sit there while you draw designs on his armor with that atrocious burn time? That's a terrible, terrible build. Again, unless you are hiding behind your team.


I prefer the 72 with 6 ER-Meds, 1.29 efficiency and 70+ kph. With that you can actually run and gun a bit more than letting your team take the brunt of the enemy team's ire.

With the constant mobility nerfs being thrown around, heavy lasers aren't exactly getting worse. With the laser duration nodes heavy lasers burn just a tad longer than the ERLL, which is acceptable for mid range. What makes heavy lasers as good as they are despite the drawbacks though is the high damage/tick

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 September 2017 - 06:56 AM, said:

Heat containment won't help the Warhawk.......heat containment helps you with burst damage but what stops cERPPC boats from being meta is sustained damage, and that's something heat containment has nothing to do with (but heat gen does).

Of course heat containment will help the Warhawk, just not to the extent of heat reduction. Sure its heat reduction is getting nerfed, but that's the whole point--PGI wants the Warhawk-C to perform less.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

Of course heat containment will help the Warhawk, just not to the extent of heat reduction. Sure its heat reduction is getting nerfed, but that's the whole point--PGI wants the Warhawk-C to perform less.

Sure, but going from %13 to %4 is a huge drop, that isn't just an incremental nerf and considering the strength of Gauss vomit, was entirely unnecessary of a nerf.

[justcallme A S H]

People saying the MKII isn't the best Clan Assault right now...

You all need your heads checked. It is, hands down, the best in its class.

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 September 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

Sure, but going from %13 to %4 is a huge drop, that isn't just an incremental nerf and considering the strength of Gauss vomit, was entirely unnecessary of a nerf.

Which is why I had suggested on multiple threads to change the general heat reduction to pulse laser one. There has to be something that should set Warhawk-C apart post nerf.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

Which is why I had suggested on multiple threads to change the general heat reduction to pulse laser one. There has to be something that should set Warhawk-C apart post nerf.

You still aren't getting it, the Prime ONLY has 4% as well so that means the cERPPC build is still getting a huge enough nerf that it takes it out of the meta. The Prime needs more heat gen if 4 cERPPCs is expected to be a meta build for the WHK.

JackalBeast, on 19 September 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

Which one of those that you laid out is actually sustainable?
Sure you have an 80 point alpha, with a 1.1 heat efficiency. So you can fire and then go back into a corner for 15 seconds, while you cool down

JackalBeast, on 19 September 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

I prefer the 72 with 6 ER-Meds, 1.29 efficiency and 70+ kph. With that you can actually run and gun a bit more than letting your team take the brunt of the enemy team's ire.

You don't need to run and gun......the reason you need that speed is because all of your lasers have 400m optimal rather than having the 2 ERLL which help give you more damage at range. Also, the 2 ERLL/4 ERML should be more efficient if you are running 70+kph with 6 cERMLs.

This is the build for 2 ERLL/4 ERML/2 Gauss: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ea58813739b9079

JackalBeast, on 19 September 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

Just because you can, does not absolutely mean you should. That build is even less sustainable. After you unleash your gauss, your target is supposed to sit there while you draw designs on his armor with that atrocious burn time? That's a terrible, terrible build. Again, unless you are hiding behind your team.

You should be hiding behind your team....you're an assault, just because they have the most armor doesn't mean you should make yourself easy to pick out. That said, the burn time isn't that bad when shooting heavies and assaults which don't have the agility to really deal with the extra damage you are introducing. The sustain is also not that different because Heavy lasers have that longer cooldown which limits the maximum heat you can generate in the first place.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 19 September 2017 - 08:00 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

For what it's worth,
here

MEDIUM STRIKE

can Alpha twice

[El Bandito]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 19 September 2017 - 07:56 AM, said:

You still aren't getting it, the Prime ONLY has 4% as well so that means the cERPPC build is still getting a huge enough nerf that it takes it out of the meta. The Prime needs more heat gen if 4 cERPPCs is expected to be a meta build for the WHK.

Except Warhawk Prime with its 4% CERPPC heat gen quirk was used as CERPPC boat even before players found out about the Warhawk-C. Yes, the Prime used to be more popular than the the C. The C nerf will simply make people revert back to the Prime variant for CERPPC sniping. Overall the viability of CERPPC Warhawk will go down, but it will not be gone. Could be wrong, but I do have that feeling.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 September 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

And also no. HLL despite the longer burn duration are still far less sustainable then the ER-Large.

Never in the longest time did I ever find myself fancying the ER-Large. Mr. Peeps is now not only hot but also has 4.5 second cooldown, and the LPL has a rapid decline in damage outside of 660 M.

Funnily enought the WHK-C really didn't deserve the nerf that it recieved, as it was the only actually viable C-ppc platform that could carry more than two and actually function. It was already nerfed with the changed to cooldown. All that outcry to get the quirks re-aligned to the proper chassis did the lot of yous a whole lot of good. Not.

[Jackal Noble]

El Bandito, on 19 September 2017 - 08:19 AM, said:

Except Warhawk Prime with its 4% CERPPC heat gen quirk was used as CERPPC boat even before players found out about the Warhawk-C. Yes, the Prime used to be more popular than the the C. The C nerf will simply make people revert back to the Prime variant for CERPPC sniping. Overall the viability of CERPPC Warhawk will go down, but it will not be gone. Could be wrong, but I do have that feeling.

No Bandito, it's gone. The prime was viable with C-ERPPCs at one point in time. Before a number of changes that made the LPL/ERPPC C variant the obvious go to because of heat gen quirks. Now those are pretty much gone, neither one is really all that nice anymore.
Time to switch out to quad LPL, woohoo I'm sure that will go over swimmingly.

[Luminis]

I've been pretty adamant about running the 6x ERML + 2 Gauss build on the MCII-DS. Been messing around with the 4x ERML + 2x ERLL + 2x Gauss build as a stepping stone and only recently started using the 4x ERML + 2x HLL + 2x Gauss build. Did not spend enough time with it yet to form a conclusive opinion, but it works. Surprisingly.

It's not really suited to leading a push, but being able to alpha one, maybe two more times doesn't really make the other builds great pushers. You don't want to be the tip of the spear, anyway. And with your average QP Team, you're spending so much time in cover, might as well go for maximum poke. Pop out of cover, rip someone's ST off, go cool down. You can burst a target down very quickly to put your team one 'Mech ahead.

It's far more stressful to play, though. Gotta keep your heat in mind 100% at all times and missing a burn hurts far more than it does with the 6x ERMLs. Popping a CS to one-shot some poor sod who wants to push you is pretty satisfying, though.

As for the Warhawk: I have a hard time believing it'll see play over Assaults with better mounts if it doesn't sport some significant quirks to convince players to actually use it.

[Thorn Hallis]

justcallme A S H, on 19 September 2017 - 07:46 AM, said:

People saying the MKII isn't the best Clan Assault right now...

You all need your heads checked. It is, hands down, the best in its class.

...at least until it is available for C-Bills.

[Gas Guzzler]

JackalBeast, on 19 September 2017 - 06:57 AM, said:

Which one of those that you laid out is actually sustainable?
Sure you have an 80 point alpha, with a 1.1 heat efficiency. So you can fire and then go back into a corner for 15 seconds, while you cool down

And whats up with the 94? with Heavy large lasers? eww no.
Just because you can, does not absolutely mean you should. That build is even less sustainable. After you unleash your gauss, your target is supposed to sit there while you draw designs on his armor with that atrocious burn time? That's a terrible, terrible build. Again, unless you are hiding behind your team.


I prefer the 72 with 6 ER-Meds, 1.29 efficiency and 70+ kph. With that you can actually run and gun a bit more than letting your team take the brunt of the enemy team's ire.

I use ERLLs on the Deathstrike for an 80 damage alpha that can be used twice before cooling off. It has 21 DHS.

The Nightstar build I mentioned will have like 12 DHS, and likely only be able to alpha twice. The result is more burst and more sustained and more range on the Deathstrike. And I believe you are a step or two faster and have JJs.

Edit: So I mocked it up on a BNC-3S, and with 4 tons of ammo and LFE310, you get 13 DHS. Without the second Gauss, it has a heat efficiency of 36%. Quicksilver's DS build with 20 DHS has a heat efficiency of 36% and can go 11 seconds without shutting down. The pseudo Nightstar can go 12 seconds without shutting down and that's missing the 1 heat from the second Gauss, so really, that's a pretty negligible difference between the two. Nightstar is ~1kph slower, has no hops, and a smaller alpha and less range. Mad Cat Mk. II is the clear victor.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 19 September 2017 - 09:53 AM.