171 replies to this topic

[Verilligo]

Kanil, on 21 September 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

Gauss charge isn't why the weapon is bad, which is why retaining it is acceptable. We don't want PGI to just remove charge and say "there we fixed it" because even without charge the weapon is still not worth using. As you said yourself, the weapon is heavy, bulky, and of lower threat -- that is what we want buffed, not charge.

To be fair, I did also state that a buff to 9 damage from 8 would be a good idea. That still places it at, or rather slightly above, the DPS number that Yeonne quoted. But a pure damage buff doesn't seem enough to differentiate the weapon when, if I really want damage, I can just size up slightly to get the regular gauss and deal 15 damage. At the end of the day, though, it's just a difference of opinion. I don't think a simple buff to 10 damage is wrong at all. It just feels like a lackluster change.

[MechaBattler]

What if they increased the ammo to the point you could reasonably run it with just 1 ton of ammo? That would give it additional weight savings. What if it wasn't part of the regular GH?

[Kanil]

Verilligo, on 21 September 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

To be fair, I did also state that a buff to 9 damage from 8 would be a good idea. That still places it at, or rather slightly above, the DPS number that Yeonne quoted. But a pure damage buff doesn't seem enough to differentiate the weapon when, if I really want damage, I can just size up slightly to get the regular gauss and deal 15 damage. At the end of the day, though, it's just a difference of opinion. I don't think a simple buff to 10 damage is wrong at all. It just feels like a lackluster change.

... and I think 9 damage and no charge is lackluster (or really, still in "not worth using ever" territory, honestly.) I suppose this is why some of us support charge: it's not that we like charge, or consider it a good thing, but rather that it's enough of a non-issue that we don't want that to be the buff the weapon gets.

When given the choice between 9 damage and no charge vs 10 damage and charge, we obviously want charge, because charge doesn't matter to us, but the extra damage does.

[Verilligo]

Kanil, on 21 September 2017 - 11:01 AM, said:

... and I think 9 damage and no charge is lackluster (or really, still in "not worth using ever" territory, honestly.) I suppose this is why some of us support charge: it's not that we like charge, or consider it a good thing, but rather that it's enough of a non-issue that we don't want that to be the buff the weapon gets.

When given the choice between 9 damage and no charge vs 10 damage and charge, we obviously want charge, because charge doesn't matter to us, but the extra damage does.

That's a reasonable enough argument. I may honestly not be at the skill floor to effectively pull off gauss in general, it's been an awkward weapon for me to adjust to.

[Khobai]

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What if they increased the ammo to the point you could reasonably run it with just 1 ton of ammo? That would give it additional weight savings. What if it wasn't part of the regular GH?

already did that in my recommended stats for the light gauss. gave it 200 damage per ton instead of only 150 like most other ballistics.

that effectively reduces its weight by 1/3rd of a ton for every ton of ammo you take. So if you take 3 tons of ammo youre effectively shaving off a full ton.

but also when youre taking shots at extreme range youre more likely to miss so you need the extra ammo anyway

Quote

and I think 9 damage and no charge is lackluster

light gauss needs to do at least 10 damage to be worth the tonnage. light gauss having no chargeup makes no sense since all the other gauss weapons have chargeup. its one of the things that defines gauss

light gauss also needs to have enough max range that it starts to outdamage standard gauss at longer ranges. so that means it needs at least 810m range. that would give it a solid niche for extreme range sniping.

Edited by Khobai, 21 September 2017 - 11:53 AM.

[dwwolf]

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

already did that in my recommended stats for the light gauss. gave it 200 damage per ton instead of only 150 like most other ballistics.

that effectively reduces its weight by 1/3rd of a ton for every ton of ammo you take. So if you take 3 tons of ammo youre effectively shaving off a full ton.

but also when youre taking shots at extreme range youre more likely to miss so you need the extra ammo anyway



light gauss needs to do at least 10 damage to be worth the tonnage. light gauss having no chargeup makes no sense since all the other gauss weapons have chargeup. its one of the things that defines gauss

light gauss also needs to have enough max range that it starts to outdamage standard gauss at longer ranges. so that means it needs at least 810m range. that would give it a solid niche for extreme range sniping.

Easily fixed.
Move half of the falloff range to optimal ; Cut the current fall off range in half.
Do the same for the AC/2.

2 Niche weapons created : Extreme range sniper guns, one with sustained fire, one with more alpha.

CONs: poor DPS and alpha damage.
PROs : long range sniper/suppressive fire.

[Davegt27]

I wish you guys had not said anything

they will just go in and make ERLL suck

sort of like fixing FP by making QP and GP suck

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

Durations below 0.8 seconds are short enough that they become de facto PPFLD. The ERLL is pretty close to 0.8 for what it is. That LGauss is "for realsies" PPFLD is entirely irrelevant; it is even irrelevant for full isGauss. You don't see isGauss tearing it up, and it deals 15 damage and 2.6 DPS, usually with 726 meters of range. A Light Gauss doing nearly the same DPS for 33% less damage and 25% less tonnage is not at all at-risk of being too powerful.

8 PPFLD, that's 8 damage in one spot, no questions asked. ER-LL doesn't have -0.8s cooldown, likewise you have to expose yourself for the same duration, to put your beam to the target in which case if you don't have steady aim then you spread the damage yourself, and a competent target would torso twist as soon as the beam was recognized to be hitting.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

You keep using the term "powerful", but your context for calling it so is simply ill-informed.

Oh please, you don't even understand my position.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

It is already and would continue to be both ergonomically and empirically horrible at close range.

...

I care not one single bit about being consistent with the standard Gauss.

And at 0.75s would make it consistent with the gauss rifle, and it would FURTHER emphasize it's close range potential -- basically ******* it up completely at close range ensures that it's only used long range.

I care about it being consistent with the Gauss Rifles.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

Remember, the AC/10 fires immediately and with more punch and DPS. At 500 meters and below, it is not at-risk of becoming irrelevant, and a modest bump to velocity would be enough to bring it back even if it were. And it could use that bump regardless of what happens with LGauss.

Well, duh. But it's not really i said that as if the AC/10 is at risk being irrelevant, no i wanted to further reduce the effectiveness of LGR close range.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:28 AM, said:

As above, my point to you is that the Gauss is already superior both in DPS and up-front damage. My reason for pointing out that your proposal was more potent than mine was because you keep flirting with the idea that the LGauss is at-risk for being OP and I wanted to drive home to you how misguided that was. Because standard Gauss is already better in all the ways and LGauss combines so poorly with other weapons, it isn't enough for the two to simply match in DPS.

Misguided? Lol, I wasn't even calling it "OP". I simply posted a different configuration that wouldn't have the 10 PPFLD which is the exact problem that i'm concerned about. Because doing decent PPFLD at such a range with little chance of retaliation, low heat that does not ****** the shots you could do over time, at such a cooldown of meager 3.25s with 0.5s charge is messed up.

And what's worse, it seems like you don't know how to compromise. I tailored the CD exactly to (almost) match the DPS as you wanted, but apparently you wanted it to have more DPS. If you wanted more than 2.66 DPS, why the **** did you put it there? I Mathematically calibrated the cooldown and charge of the adjusted values of my suggestion to fit your 2.66 DPS.

Khobai, on 21 September 2017 - 06:38 AM, said:

10 damage, 3.25+0.5 cooldown, 0.5 heat, 810m/1620m range, 20 shots/ton

We've been over this. It's not a 13-tonner.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

8 PPFLD, that's 8 damage in one spot, no questions asked. ER-LL doesn't have -0.8s cooldown, likewise you have to expose yourself for the same duration

Most mechs aren't snapshooting that 8 PPFLD because of the charge up time and having to line up shots because it isn't instant hit which is partially why Gauss has so much trouble, not to mention the fact that you can only shoot 2 at a time which really makes mechs like the Quad Light Gauss Mauler extremely bad for extreme range compared to ERLL or UAC2 boats despite its PPFLD weapons. In other words, in practice, the fact that ERLL isn't PPFLD, isn't a huge issue even at extreme range because very few mechs can actually limit their exposure time to be under that duration, and those that can are probably poptarts which Gauss in general has issues with because of the charge up time.

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

And at 0.75s would make it consistent with the gauss rifle, and it would FURTHER emphasize it's close range potential -- basically ******* it up completely at close range ensures that it's only used long range.

I care about it being consistent with the Gauss Rifles.

Then clearly, it should be 12 damage with a slightly faster cooldown and slightly longer range.

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

Oh please, you don't even understand my position.

The reverse could also be said.

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 03:24 PM, said:

Misguided? Lol, I wasn't even calling it "OP". I simply posted a different configuration that wouldn't have the 10 PPFLD which is the exact problem that i'm concerned about. Because doing decent PPFLD at such a range with little chance of retaliation, low heat that does not ****** the shots you could do over time, at such a cooldown of meager 3.25s with 0.5s charge is messed up.

How exactly is that "messed up"

It's crap as is, UAC2s and ERLL are both easily more useful than it, buffing the alpha potential by 20% and the sustained by 20% isn't going to turn this weapon into magic especially given it still has issues (like exploding because it is a Gauss Rifle).

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

In other words, in practice, the fact that ERLL isn't PPFLD, isn't a huge issue even at extreme range because very few mechs can actually limit their exposure time to be under that duration, and those that can are probably poptarts which Gauss in general has issues with because of the charge up time.

Not an issue for it's stare time maybe, but not the one it could focus decent PPFLD (by decent i mean proposed 10 damage) from a distance.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

The reverse could also be said.

Not really, no.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

How exactly is that "messed up"

The one putting instantaneous decent PPFLD at a distance with little retaliation possible, and could do so quickly and is not limited by heat therefore could unload continuously.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 03:36 PM, said:

It's crap as is, UAC2s and ERLL are both easily more useful than it, buffing the alpha potential by 20% and the sustained by 20% isn't going to turn this weapon into magic especially given it still has issues (like exploding because it is a Gauss Rifle).

Sure, like i said, it's not that it's "OP", but would be messed up and annoying.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 September 2017 - 03:51 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Verilligo, on 21 September 2017 - 10:13 AM, said:

And I have to personally argue that you cannot just combine gauss charge in with cooldown to do your calculations. I mean, I completely understand that you play at a much higher level than I do, so for you this may really be of no issue. But is it necessary? Is there no place for a lighter weight sniping option that allows for a different style of play? Because when I was using twin LGRs, even with a 20% cooldown before-skill-tree bonus, simply delivering 20 damage instead of 16 per pull was not going to make the experience that much more pleasant.

Skill ceilings and skill floors.

It has long range, it has low heat, it has high damage, and it has an extremely fast projectile. Apart from being big and heavy, the weapon has nothing against it except that it's not actual hit-scan. All of this makes it low-risk to use (low skill floor) and extremely effective (high skill ceiling). That skews its risk/reward ratio wildly to the right.

Now, the catch is that we want to level out that risk/reward ratio without rendering the gun impotent. If we change the performance stats, we are aiming to nerf the reward (static skill floor, lower skill ceiling). If we add a charge mechanic, we are increasing the risk but leaving the reward intact (static skill ceiling, increased skill floor).

If we make the LGauss effective, it inherits all of this, because at the end of the day it's still really just a Gauss Rifle that does half the damage.

What the charge-up to it means that, unless you know exactly where the target is, you have a longer exposure time than you would if it could snap-fire. You have an expose, search, acquire, charge, and fire or charge, expose, search, acquire, recharge event more often than you get a charge, expose, fire event. That subtle change stacks over a match and is an extremely effective way to increase the risk and nerf the weapon without nerfing it. It is the reason Gauss pairs well with lasers, why lasers are more effective against it than against PPCs, and why the Summoner with a pair of ERPPC was a superior poptart to the NTG with dual Gauss even before PGI linked the ghost-heat groups.

Quote

[Edit]: I'd also debate equating the roles of the ERPPC and LGR. I understand what you're getting at, but using up 6-7 more tons, 2 more slots, and having limited ammo just to not gain 12.5 heat seems like a very weird trade. Sure, not gaining the extra heat means you can mix it in with more heat-demanding weapons, but would those builds really be that competitive with other established ones? I just can't see it from the level that I play at.

I mean, the ERPPC and LGauss share similar projectile stats, and both demand your entire 'Mech to run effectively, but the ERPPC is more effective because it's got more range, slightly higher max DPS, and can deal more burst. For the most part, you get small opportunities to deal damage and, in that window, a single PPC shot is worth more than a single LGauss shot. The best-case scenario for LGauss is that you have a distracted enemy team that lets you remain fully exposed a good distance away so you can just pump rounds into them but...you can better take advantage of such an opportunity with a bunch or ERLL or UAC/2.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Not an issue for it's stare time maybe, but not the one it could focus decent PPFLD (by decent i mean proposed 10 damage) from a distance.

It needs that upfront damage to compete with ERLL, I mean at 15 damage quad Gauss isn't even capable of competing with ERLL and UAC2 spam anymore.

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

The one putting instantaneous decent PPFLD at a distance with little retaliation possible, and could do so quickly and is not limited by heat therefore could unload continuously.

This is where you are not understanding, it isn't capable of escaping retaliation, especially not better than any PPC poptarts that already exist (and it sacrifices a lot to be able to compete with PPC poptarts either in speed or fragility).

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

It needs that upfront damage to compete with ERLL, I mean at 15 damage quad Gauss isn't even capable of competing with ERLL and UAC2 spam anymore.

Compete in what sense? I would argue that being low heat, and quick shots -- at least my configuration, would compete with ER-LLs. That's 9 PPFLD every 3.25s, versus 9 spread damage every 4.5s of the ERLL. Granted you can put multiple ERLLs at a lower tonnage, but you could shoot multiple LGR faster with little consequence retarding it's rate of fire.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

This is where you are not understanding, it isn't capable of escaping retaliation, especially not better than any PPC poptarts that already exist (and it sacrifices a lot to be able to compete with PPC poptarts either in speed or fragility).

I did say "Little", not "no", whatever you just said is just moot. And sure PPC poptarts and ER Laser snipers can touch the LGR user at such a range, but what about other weapons? AC2? Sure? The rest? Not so much. The ER Lasers and PPCs are limited by heat that make them eventually stop shooting and cooldown, your saving grace when you don't have long range weapons. Not LGR though, it could keep hounding people with little heat retarding it's already quick rate of fire by comparison. And that's my concern.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 September 2017 - 05:14 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Compete in what sense? I would argue that being low heat, and quick shots -- at least my configuration, would compete with ER-LLs.

You can argue until you are blue in the face, in practice they simply aren't as good.

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

That's 9 PPFLD every 3.25s, versus 9 spread damage every 4.5s of the ERLL.

Except you are comparing a 5 ton weapon to a 13+ weapon. Generally you can carry 3 ERLL per 2 Light Gauss so that comparison is a bad one. Even in assaults, the Mauler is NOT better with Light Gauss than the Mauler with 6 UAC2s or the Battlemaster with 5-6 ERLL. Having that sustained is not worth losing trades against ERLL or UAC2 mechs where the game is more about burst damage.

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

The ER Lasers and PPCs are limited by heat that make them eventually stop shooting and cooldown, your saving grace when you don't have long range weapons. Not LGR though, it could keep hounding people with little heat retarding it's already quick rate of fire by comparison. And that's my concern.

The LGR doesn't have the burst damage which is more important than the sustained at that point. You get a couple of quick kills or neuter the right mechs and you are golden, that's why those weapons work on the maps they do. Once shorter range teams are within range, it won't matter whether you have the sustained or not if you haven't gotten the kills you need (because focus fire becomes more problematic once a team has pushed in your face).

If Quad Gauss is no longer a thing, I don't understand your concern for Quad Light Gauss even if it did 10 damage per shot.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 21 September 2017 - 05:27 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

You can argue until you are blue in the face, in practice they simply aren't as good.

Lol okay.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

Except you are comparing a 5 ton weapon to a 13+ weapon. Generally you can carry 3 ERLL per 2 Light Gauss so that comparison is a bad one. Even in assaults, the Mauler is NOT better with Light Gauss than the Mauler with 6 UAC2s or the Battlemaster with 5-6 ERLL. Having that sustained is not worth losing trades against ERLL or UAC2 mechs where the game is more about burst damage.

Um, so were you? So were Yeonne Greene. You people can do it but i cant? If they aren't even on the same level, why bother? If they are not comparable because tonnage, why even breath 6x UAC2 into this?

Why would being a relevant choice even a factor? It just needs to be effective for it's tonnage isn't it? So what if It won't ever be used cause ER-LLs are just lighter right? *sarcasm

As far as i'm concerned, tackling this tonnage-wise alone wouldn't lead us anywhere, we also have to consider the role it does, and how well it does it roles. Comparison between two equipment of unequal tonnage is inevitable.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

The LGR doesn't have the burst damage which is more important than the sustained at that point. You get a couple of quick kills or neuter the right mechs and you are golden, that's why those weapons work on the maps they do.

And when LGR has the same decent PPFLD as the IS ERPPC, not only it have the burst damage, it can also sustain. And that's the issue i'm trying to address.

Honestly, i wouldn't mind if it had something as 5.00 + 0.75s cooldown same as gauss, or 4.5s + 0.5s cooldown, both with 12 damage. ****, that still goes well for my Urbie -- a ******* Light Gauss Urbie, do you know how awesome is that for Urbie Afficionados? (Mind you, not equates to a good or effective build)

But the thing is that it doesn't.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

Once shorter range teams are within range, it won't matter whether you have the sustained or not if you haven't gotten the kills you need (because focus fire becomes more problematic once a team has pushed in your face).

Yeah, duh. Of course brawlers and dakka do have chance of retaliation when they are in range. That's not really part of the concern, it's when they're faraway that's an issue.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 21 September 2017 - 05:26 PM, said:

If Quad Gauss is no longer a thing, I don't understand your concern for Quad Light Gauss even if it did 10 damage per shot.

Of course you won't, you're falsely equating prevalence with OPness, and it's capacity to be a messed up and annoying weapon. Let me be clear, i never said that simple 10 damage will be op, it's just something messed up and annoying.

And before you go "But you said to Khobai, it's not a 13 tonner." Well, he was arguing from a relevance between UAC10 and LGR dynamic, cause he submitted to the "fact" that AC10 is irrelevant, and given up on it.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 21 September 2017 - 06:30 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

I did say "Little", not "no", whatever you just said is just moot. And sure PPC poptarts and ER Laser snipers can touch the LGR user at such a range, but what about other weapons? AC2? Sure? The rest? Not so much. The ER Lasers and PPCs are limited by heat that make them eventually stop shooting and cooldown, your saving grace when you don't have long range weapons. Not LGR though, it could keep hounding people with little heat retarding it's already quick rate of fire by comparison. And that's my concern.

Okay, this doesn't make sense.

You've essentially just said that weapons that can't shoot at extreme range have a tough time retaliating. But..that's a "no sh*t Sherlock" statement. You hound somebody incessantly with a trio of ERLL and it's the same thing.

I mean, I see your angle. But the cold, hard fact is this:

I take my three ERLL with 20 DHS. I have full duration nodes and 9% heat gen, 15% heat containment, and 10% cool-run, right?


Heat Cap: 1.15 * 65 = 74.75 (yay fixed Heat Containment, Quicksilver can correct me if this one is wrong though)
Heat Dissipation: 1.1 * 3.50 = 3.85

Heat generated per shot is 0.91 * 8 * 3 = 21.84.
Net Heat Generation is (21.84 / (0.93 + 3.40)) - 3.84 = 1.19
Time to Heat Cap = 74.75 / 1.19 = 62 seconds

All at a DPS of 6.24. (Yes, I will have probably picked up cool-down incidentally but nothing compels me to fire it as fast as it cools down and that only hammers home my point here, because this calculation is me already holding back).

So I can fire for a solid minute at a DPS greater than I can achieve using LGauss. How realistic do you think it is that I'm actually going to sit there with my trigger depressed with any weapon? With no pauses to acquire a new target, reposition, etc. that could be used to cool off? And what about cool-shots? In what way is getting continuously drilled by ERLL while you are trying to fight other targets or are otherwise unable to respond any less annoying than getting hit by Gauss rounds, especially Gauss rounds that are likely going to hit multiple locations because you change your orientation mid-flight and will only ever do 16 damage while the ERLL can do up do up to 27 and, in all likelihood, will actually do about 80% of that without you having a say?

What you fear that the LGauss will become is already the reality with every extreme-range weapon in the game. That's the only mechanism by which they do work: continuous [and annoying] shots from outside your own effective range. This is what I was trying to show in the OP, and hoped people would realize that the heat limit for a trio of ERLL is so high that it might as well not exist.

And, at any rate, I fail to see why getting hit by 18 damage every 3.5 seconds is any less annoying than getting hit by 20 every 3.75 or 16 every 3.00 or, stepping up to full Gauss, 30 every 5.75. It's all just as annoying if you don't have a weapon to trade against it...but that's kind of the point of having weapons for different brackets.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 September 2017 - 06:34 PM.

[JediPanther]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 September 2017 - 07:25 PM, said:

So, the Light Gauss.

Current stats:
Cooldown: 3.25 s
Charge-up: 0.5s

Anybody else spent a lot of time with this weapon?

Nope. With such a narrow time to fire at a moving target even if it is going 55-64kph at long range you still won't get much of a shot off. skill nodes make it 1 second maybe 1.5 but still very narrow. Lasers and other u/ac are much more reliable to hit that target. I'll take an ac2 over light gauss for long range sniping or go er ll and do even better.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

So I can fire for a solid minute at a DPS greater than I can achieve using LGauss.

How realistic do you think it is that I'm actually going to sit there with my trigger depressed with any weapon? With no pauses to acquire a new target, reposition, etc. that could be used to cool off?

"Depressed"? You mean pressed? I'm gonna respond as if you said "pressed" okay?

Comes with tactics. Not being bound by having to cool down at all, along with faster rate of fire, while in practice you hinder yourself, the LGR has the option to not need to do so and would get away with it, the 3x ERLL, no it doesn't get away with it. If you fire continuously with little pause, you build up heat.

And 3.1s isn't that long to change targets upon a good position, and if you have multiple targets on sight.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

And what about cool-shots?

You mean the only two coolshots you get? Or you mean to tell me you could use coolshots every time you get hot? Which means you have an unlimited supply.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

In what way is getting continuously drilled by ERLL while you are trying to fight other targets or are otherwise unable to respond any less annoying than getting hit by Gauss rounds, especially Gauss rounds that are likely going to hit multiple locations because you change your orientation mid-flight and will only ever do 16 damage while the ERLL can do up do up to 27 and, in all likelihood, will actually do about 80% of that without you having a say?

...

What you fear that the LGauss will become is already the reality with every extreme-range weapon in the game.

The one that it's a pseudo-AC2 that's actually doing both decent damage at a range, and suppression. ERLLs do not have screen shake, Gauss shots do. They also put PPFLD at one spot, lasers don't necessarily do.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

That's the only mechanism by which they do work: continuous [and annoying] shots from outside your own effective range. This is what I was trying to show in the OP, and hoped people would realize that the heat limit for a trio of ERLL is so high that it might as well not exist.

The point is that it does, put them on something like a Caustic Valley or Terra Therma, sustained DPS is affected.

Yeonne Greene, on 21 September 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

And, at any rate, I fail to see why getting hit by 18 damage every 3.5 seconds is any less annoying than getting hit by 20 every 3.75 or 16 every 3.00 or, stepping up to full Gauss, 30 every 5.75. It's all just as annoying if you don't have a weapon to trade against it...but that's kind of the point of having weapons for different brackets.

PPFLD and Screen Shake.

Gauss disturbs you every 5.75s, LGR right now every 3.75s disturbs you every 3.75s with a not-okay damage, LGR with 20 damage at 3.75 will disturb every 3.75s you AND put a decent damage that you need to worry about harder.

And that's the thing, it's opinions, it's personal disapproval. You fail to see why it's annoying, i say it is, and those are my reason and would prefer something else. That's why I've been trying to compromise all this time.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 21 September 2017 - 07:00 PM, said:

"Depressed"? You mean pressed? I'm gonna respond as if you said "pressed" okay?

Comes with tactics. Not being bound by having to cool down at all, along with faster rate of fire, while in practice you hinder yourself, the LGR has the option to not need to do so and would get away with it, the 3x ERLL, no it doesn't get away with it. If you fire continuously with little pause, you build up heat.

And 3.1s isn't that long to change targets upon a good position, and if you have multiple targets on sight.

Depressed == pressed. It's a mouse button, I push it down. My terminology is correct.

And, no, the tactic is the same. There is this thing called an engagement window. You can't just sit there and wail on a targets all match unless they are just that inept that they don't get into cover or shoot back. The window of engagement in a given match is not long enough for the complete lack of heat on the LGauss to factor in. You always have to change position before you get to that point.

If I drop my DPS to just match the LGauss (~5.2 under proposed 2.6 DPS), I can fire for 3.8 minutes. The entire fight could only take three minutes. I can lose the .2 DPS and fire for five whole minutes and still be competitive with the LGauss output.

Your heat defense simply does not hold up. You can try to slice it any way you like, but I will always be hitting you with a blue beam until you drop, I drop, or you get to cover and there won't be any meaningful pause in the rate of damage.

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You mean the only two coolshots you get? Or you mean to tell me you could use coolshots every time you get hot? Which means you have an unlimited supply.

When it takes me a whole minute to build up to heat cap, a single cool-shot is going to buy me another 15 seconds of shooting. That's a lot.

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The one that it's a pseudo-AC2 that's actually doing both decent damage at a range, and suppression. ERLLs do not have screen shake, Gauss shots do. They also put PPFLD at one spot, lasers don't necessarily do.

Lasers will put more damage in one spot than the LGauss simply because you are physically limited and will still do damage on a miss, so the PPFLD part is moot. PPFLD misses, that wrecks your DPS cadence. Not the case with hit-scan. And if single intermittent rattle is annoying to you, that's fair, but screen shake from a Gauss hit is a minor nuissance, it doesn't blind and doesn't actually affect your 'Mech's aim. It can be annoying to get hit by it, agreed, but objectively it has zero technical impact on performance...no pun intended.

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The point is that it does, put them on something like a Caustic Valley or Terra Therma, sustained DPS is affected.

Hooray, two maps that are so choked with cover that extreme range play is, itself, a risk. You may have made a better point with Tourmaline, but not by much. Twenty DHS is really overkill for just 3x ERLL and a hot map like Tourmaline has (IIRC) a 15% reduction to dissipation and a 10% reduction to cap.

So let's run it again (note, I don't know if map percentages subtract from your skill bonuses before multiplying or if they are multiplied after; I'm going with multiplied after as that makes more sense to me and it's worst-case):

Dissipation is 0.85 * 3.85 = 3.27 h/s
Heat generation is going to be 5.04 - 3.27 = 1.77 h/s
Cap is 0.9 * 74.75 = 67.3

Time to heat soak @ 6.24 DPS = 38 seconds.

Still more than enough time to bore straight through the CT on a fully armed and operational battlestation Annihilator.

Drop to 5.2 DPS, get a minute and 14 seconds of firing time, which is longer than any reasonable engagement window before non-potato circumstances force you to duck.

Standing in lava is bad. Don't do it.

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Gauss disturbs you every 5.75s, LGR right now every 3.75s disturbs you every 3.75s with a not-okay damage, LGR with 20 damage at 3.75 will disturb every 3.75s you AND put a decent damage that you need to worry about harder.

PPFLD and Screen Shake.

If I have two Gauss (or three or four) and I fire them alternately, I am disturbing you every 2.875 seconds while doing nearly the same damage or more per half-volley. That should be just as annoying to you. It's what a quad-Gauss KDK-3 or DWF does, and it's way more effective than a pair of LGauss.

So you are getting annoyed by something that is already in the game in a more powerful format, but people don't do it because it results in inferior performance to do so. Maybe I should start firing my Warhammer's twin Gauss in Left-Right mode if I ever see you on the other team if it's that effective at putting you on tilt and, thus, less effective? Tactics indeed.

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And that's the thing, it's opinions, it's personal disapproval. You fail to see why it's annoying, i say it is, and those are my reason and would prefer something else. That's why I've been trying to compromise all this time.

You see, this is the stupid part.

I already more or less agreed to your compromise in the very first reply to you on Page 1, but you then went on a crusade against any and all criticism of your idea when it got called out as being anything but founded in objective performance and/or the realities of seasoned combat in MWO. You are trying to justify feels using citations about in-game performance that are either un-true or require very stupid players to actually be true. It doesn't compute.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 September 2017 - 08:19 PM.

[Nightbird]

I tried quad Lgauss on the cyclops, was ok, not OP not UP. A 100 tonner might do it better, like king crab with XL and more ammo. I only had 7 tons for my build.

Edited by NlGHTBlRD, 21 September 2017 - 08:33 PM.