76 replies to this topic

[naterist]

MischiefSC, on 23 September 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

The problem is that you consider reality and facts a "old talking point".

As hass been pointed out, repeatedly, most players in MWO have unit tags. FW was populated with units and teams. They didn't quit because they were playing other teams, they quit because the mode lacked depth or purpose. I get that you want QP with respawns and more rewards but maybe ask PGI to add respawns to QP instead of destroying the only segment of the game still designed for team play. If you want the bigger rewards consistently then you need to meet the steeper requirements the mode has to win consistently. Same reason I'm not saying I should get a slice of that MWOWC cash prize just because I can't beat the top tier teams in MWOWC.

So, maybe take a look at those "old talking points". You know, reality. Facts. Yes, FW needs some critical changes. So does IS/Clan balance. That doesn't mean turn it i to QP.

Ok, lets follow that logic train because its a good one. Fw is for units to go and prove their mettle.

Part 1, you got units mixing it up, going after each other, everythings brand new.

After a bit of time, its somewhat obvious who your just not capable of defeating.
Once that reality sinks in, people start despising seeing said teams because they know the outcome the minute they spawn, which means the next 30 minutes is pointless, and it will be ~30 minutes, because said teams will bypass the objective to kill every mech that spawns first.

At this point everyone knows which side doesnt face those teams (clans), and either quits the mode because time they que its a toss up if itll be a match or a waste of time, and the other half go, 'well if you cant beat em, join em and they go clan.

You are now stuck with a side that has no teams in this team only mode, well aint that a gosh darn cunundrum.

Now, the only thing keeping the mode alive is pugs mindlessly queing to get their loyaltypoints bribe in mechbays, and a side whos still looking to prove their the best like nothings changed (thats you btw.) When its no contest, because the only guys who may have been competition for you are now on the same side as you so they wont have to fight you.

So that leaves us with a 2 sided conflict, with only one side playing. Thats a problem. Clearly, in an unmonitered and open system like we have, a mode for people to prove how great they are wont work, because theres an overwhelming majority of people who dont want to que every match like its a comp game.

Your right, the game is built on units and teams, but when put all the great whites on one side with a handful of tuna, and a bunch of sardines on the other, you arent going to have a sustainable mode.

The thing you arent accounting for in your analysis and responses is human nature, and im pretty sure its because you dont understand it yourself.

[Leggin Ho]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

No. It's not fine. Nobody says it's fine.

The difference is do you fix it by making FW more like the FW that was promises, drawing back all the units that left because it wasn't, or do you junk FW, get the units who still play to leave MWO completely (a lot only stay for FW) in the hopes that a few of the existing pugs will stay to play FW even though they already have FW.

Hence the mockery. You're trying to falsely imply that the problem is that there are still some units who haven't quit FW and that somehow driving them to quit FW willl.... what, magically draw back all the dedicated pugs who quit mwo? Was this the same pugs who were going to pour back into FW when QP maps got added? When we went to 1 bukkit? Cuz maps were a wash and 1 bukkit just drove a ton of loyalist units out of MWO completely while pug population didn't change.

FW doesn't need to be QP we already have QP. It needs at least a bit of the promised FW content and some of the critical changes brought up in the roundtable. That would bring the units it was designed for.

The only thing kicking units out of FW would do is empty FW more, get a ton of players to quit FW and add 0 players to the game. They're is 0 logic to support that idea. There is more logic to support requiring someone to be in at least a group of 2 to play FW and I'm against that too.

Speaks sense............

Kill Chain, on 24 September 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Non-Sense.....

[naterist]

Leggin Ho, on 24 September 2017 - 01:34 PM, said:

Speaks sense............

To an idiot, another idiot is wise.

[Leggin Ho]

You speak alot about human nature, then you throw that our like a 3 year old, you talk about folks not wanting to play good units, your in a unit, so get better and beat them back or just quit, that seems to be your nature. As I've posted before some of your idea's have merit, but then you go and rant over how your all the lazy players (that bring crap builds, refuse to used TS or group up in a group mode) protector, how about you play the game with your team, you know that group of folks you drop with all the time and do your thing and let other teams do their thing. Your no one's protector in a online game but your team mates in drop.

[MischiefSC]

naterist, on 24 September 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Ok, lets follow that logic train because its a good one. Fw is for units to go and prove their mettle.

Part 1, you got units mixing it up, going after each other, everythings brand new.

After a bit of time, its somewhat obvious who your just not capable of defeating.
Once that reality sinks in, people start despising seeing said teams because they know the outcome the minute they spawn, which means the next 30 minutes is pointless, and it will be ~30 minutes, because said teams will bypass the objective to kill every mech that spawns first.

At this point everyone knows which side doesnt face those teams (clans), and either quits the mode because time they que its a toss up if itll be a match or a waste of time, and the other half go, 'well if you cant beat em, join em and they go clan.

You are now stuck with a side that has no teams in this team only mode, well aint that a gosh darn cunundrum.

Now, the only thing keeping the mode alive is pugs mindlessly queing to get their loyaltypoints bribe in mechbays, and a side whos still looking to prove their the best like nothings changed (thats you btw.) When its no contest, because the only guys who may have been competition for you are now on the same side as you so they wont have to fight you.

So that leaves us with a 2 sided conflict, with only one side playing. Thats a problem. Clearly, in an unmonitered and open system like we have, a mode for people to prove how great they are wont work, because theres an overwhelming majority of people who dont want to que every match like its a comp game.

Your right, the game is built on units and teams, but when put all the great whites on one side with a handful of tuna, and a bunch of sardines on the other, you arent going to have a sustainable mode.

The thing you arent accounting for in your analysis and responses is human nature, and im pretty sure its because you dont understand it yourself.

Short answer -

No. Not at all.

It was never, ever, ever about "who you couldn't beat". I was a Davion loyalist for years and we played 24x7 and regularly played against better teams like SJR, 228, NS and got stomped - and queued right back up again. All night long. Because only a dedicated failure looks at a match where they lose in an environment like this and says "I'll never be able to be better than the sub par, low mediocre I am right now so everyone who doesn't suck ad bad as me should be forced out."

The whole rest of the human race says "Wow, those guys were good. I should get better and learn from that experience". And we did and we got better. Most of us pugged regularly and we went to each others TS and we grouped up with mixed teams, because we actually understood that FW was not QP and doing well in FW took more effort. Before 1 bukkit when they largely quit the units still in Davion were rock solid and a legit challenge for any team.

No, the whole "FW is too hard and I want to win more but not have to change or improve" is relatively new.

Nobody left because of other units. They left due to lack of depth and no point to being a loyalist.

[naterist]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2017 - 02:20 PM, said:

Short answer -

No. Not at all.

It was never, ever, ever about "who you couldn't beat". I was a Davion loyalist for years and we played 24x7 and regularly played against better teams like SJR, 228, NS and got stomped - and queued right back up again. All night long. Because only a dedicated failure looks at a match where they lose in an environment like this and says "I'll never be able to be better than the sub par, low mediocre I am right now so everyone who doesn't suck ad bad as me should be forced out."

The whole rest of the human race says "Wow, those guys were good. I should get better and learn from that experience". And we did and we got better. Most of us pugged regularly and we went to each others TS and we grouped up with mixed teams, because we actually understood that FW was not QP and doing well in FW took more effort. Before 1 bukkit when they largely quit the units still in Davion were rock solid and a legit challenge for any team.

No, the whole "FW is too hard and I want to win more but not have to change or improve" is relatively new.

Nobody left because of other units. They left due to lack of depth and no point to being a loyalist.

So, if im to make sense of what your saying here, and mix it with what im saying up there, you understand the whole thing. The guys who were stomping got bored of stomping because there wasnt a point to it, and the guys who were getting stomp come then go because their sick of getting stomped and want to play people that are on their skill level in qp with a matchmaker. You also seem to be implying, and i know its true from when ive occasionally dropped with kcom, that we should just mindlessly reque, and if we end up stomping great, if we get stomped, ok. (Which is a fine opinion for someone in kcom to have, the group that hasnt been stomped in god knows how long)

its a fact that continueal stomping will make people leave, and as you can see in my above explaination of fw which covers from when i started playing fw in 3.0-till now, one sides getting stomped WAY more than the other because of stacking. And, you may not remember this, but absolutely nothing is learned in a stomp. In a relatively even fight, things do get learned, but thats a very rare occurance in fw, so not much learning is happening. So whats the end result? People on one side are bored because they arent forced into any real challenge, and the other side is hitting challenges that are more like brick walls. But youd have me believe theres other ways than a matchmaker or change to the que system, yet you dont have anything better to suggest. Get over yourself.

[Deathlike]

Kill Chain, on 22 September 2017 - 11:10 AM, said:

I'd like to see them fix things like contract bonuses and other population balancing measures to help combat the nutcupping we're seeing from a lot of the groups who are side stacking before splitting queues. Though I do think it's dumb that PGI allows full 12 mans in this game whereas other lobby games only allow a much smaller portion of a side to be made up of a unified group. For example World of Warships I think only allows groups of 2 or 3. Been several months since I've played it.

Fixing contract bonuses and population balance should be done, but that doesn't fix CW/FP as a whole.

The problem with your thinking about groups is that it is much harder to get 12 solo players on both sides to queue up individually. Groups speed the entire process immensely as adding any group to the queue is much faster than waiting for the equivalent # of solo players queuing up.


The whole point of grouping up is in the form of getting organized. No organization of any sort only amplifies skill and coordination disparities. There are plenty of groups willing to help out solos as long as they are following some basic principles of movement, engagement, and mech building. It's the people that think they can do w/o that is almost always going to have a bad time.


Working hard at getting better makes for a better experience on the whole. Trying to do everything by yourself is almost always be a frustrating experience. Trying to convince people otherwise is hoping for uninteresting game.

[Deathlike]

naterist, on 24 September 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

So, if im to make sense of what your saying here, and mix it with what im saying up there, you understand the whole thing. The guys who were stomping got bored of stomping because there wasnt a point to it, and the guys who were getting stomp come then go because their sick of getting stomped and want to play people that are on their skill level in qp with a matchmaker. You also seem to be implying, and i know its true from when ive occasionally dropped with kcom, that we should just mindlessly reque, and if we end up stomping great, if we get stomped, ok. (Which is a fine opinion for someone in kcom to have, the group that hasnt been stomped in god knows how long)

its a fact that continueal stomping will make people leave, and as you can see in my above explaination of fw which covers from when i started playing fw in 3.0-till now, one sides getting stomped WAY more than the other because of stacking. And, you may not remember this, but absolutely nothing is learned in a stomp. In a relatively even fight, things do get learned, but thats a very rare occurance in fw, so not much learning is happening. So whats the end result? People on one side are bored because they arent forced into any real challenge, and the other side is hitting challenges that are more like brick walls. But youd have me believe theres other ways than a matchmaker or change to the que system, yet you dont have anything better to suggest. Get over yourself.

You're full of it.

Every single time I see too many PUGs on a team, I know that they very likely NOT going to ever maximize their potential. They aren't actually grouped up, communicating, or even putting together decent builds. Most of them end up fighting by themselves in an uneven situation and generally losing it.

If you put no effort into FP/CW, you will not get much back from it. Some players don't know they can do more... like join other groups (they don't have to be in the unit) or fix their builds. That's a PGI problem for the most part. Then there are others that refuse to do more. That's the group of people that constantly complain about it being too hard. That's the people all of us can do w/o.

Blaming the good teams and players is like saying "people that are good at the game should stop playing". You know why they don't play CW/FP? There's no real tangible end game goal that anyone gives a damn about. Even the previously weak bribes of MC wasn't enough... you beat one faction into submission and what happens then? Uh.... nothing. Even that PGI added "an endgame goal", noone gives a damn about it. So, who's fault is that? (Hint: It's PGI).


PGI put little to no effort of getting CW/FP done properly. Just like CW/FP, they got exactly what they deserve as a response. Don't be like PGI in not trying to actually get better at this. You can't build a playerbase if you designed the foundation of a mode/game poorly.

[r4zen]

Deathlike, on 24 September 2017 - 04:41 PM, said:

The problem with your thinking about groups is that it is much harder to get 12 solo players on both sides to queue up individually. Groups speed the entire process immensely as adding any group to the queue is much faster than waiting for the equivalent # of solo players queuing up.


The whole point of grouping up is in the form of getting organized. No organization of any sort only amplifies skill and coordination disparities. There are plenty of groups willing to help out solos as long as they are following some basic principles of movement, engagement, and mech building. It's the people that think they can do w/o that is almost always going to have a bad time.

ONE MORE TIME FOR THE NATERISTS IN THE BACK

[MischiefSC]

naterist, on 24 September 2017 - 04:40 PM, said:

So, if im to make sense of what your saying here, and mix it with what im saying up there, you understand the whole thing. The guys who were stomping got bored of stomping because there wasnt a point to it, and the guys who were getting stomp come then go because their sick of getting stomped and want to play people that are on their skill level in qp with a matchmaker. You also seem to be implying, and i know its true from when ive occasionally dropped with kcom, that we should just mindlessly reque, and if we end up stomping great, if we get stomped, ok. (Which is a fine opinion for someone in kcom to have, the group that hasnt been stomped in god knows how long)

its a fact that continueal stomping will make people leave, and as you can see in my above explaination of fw which covers from when i started playing fw in 3.0-till now, one sides getting stomped WAY more than the other because of stacking. And, you may not remember this, but absolutely nothing is learned in a stomp. In a relatively even fight, things do get learned, but thats a very rare occurance in fw, so not much learning is happening. So whats the end result? People on one side are bored because they arent forced into any real challenge, and the other side is hitting challenges that are more like brick walls. But youd have me believe theres other ways than a matchmaker or change to the que system, yet you dont have anything better to suggest. Get over yourself.

Again, no. The only people leaving because they lose while pugging are the people who don't want to play FW, they want QP with the FW maps/modes. No units were quitting because they were losing to better units. That's absurd. I played in every faction with almost every unit and never heard anyone even consider quitting FW because other people were beating them.

If someone is unwilling to put the effort into getting better they have QP already.

I've been in KCom for a few months. I've been stomped by them and other teams repeatedly over the years. Every unit has. You learn and improve and when possible play with better players to learn.

You're making an absolute strawman in saying that some teams being better at the game is why people quit FW when everyone in every team who's ever posted a complaint about FW has said otherwise.

If KCom left you'd be getting rolled just as hard by someone else. Because there's no trick, no magic, just a tiny amount effort to group up. FW was made for groups. Again, I posted links to the original dev posts and the corresponding player feedback threads. We have 3 years of forum posts from unit players saying why they're quitting.

Maybe the real solution is requiring grouping up.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

Again, no. The only people leaving because they lose while pugging are the people who don't want to play FW, they want QP with the FW maps/modes. No units were quitting because they were losing to better units. That's absurd. I played in every faction with almost every unit and never heard anyone even consider quitting FW because other people were beating them.

If someone is unwilling to put the effort into getting better they have QP already.

I've been in KCom for a few months. I've been stomped by them and other teams repeatedly over the years. Every unit has. You learn and improve and when possible play with better players to learn.

You're making an absolute strawman in saying that some teams being better at the game is why people quit FW when everyone in every team who's ever posted a complaint about FW has said otherwise.

If KCom left you'd be getting rolled just as hard by someone else. Because there's no trick, no magic, just a tiny amount effort to group up. FW was made for groups. Again, I posted links to the original dev posts and the corresponding player feedback threads. We have 3 years of forum posts from unit players saying why they're quitting.

Maybe the real solution is requiring grouping up.

No no no.

Effort takes work. We can't have that.

Everything is supposed to be EZ. It's like running the US.... amirite?

[justcallme A S H]

Kill Chain, on 24 September 2017 - 05:50 AM, said:

You guys keep tilting against windmills because you disagree with an opinion that wasn't even the main point of my post lol! I've never seen someone be so willfully ignorant.

P.S. I hope you're enjoying your wait times and ghost drops because you're clinging to your side stacking 12 mans since that's the red herring you want to talk about.

I did that many ghost drops as IS the past week I gave up trying to drop. The red herring you refer to doesn't really exist because there are many factors at play. I can only guess you are new and don't understand the mode and population fully yet.

That said if you're losing - I know why - You do what Jeremiah does...

Edited by justcallme A S H, 24 September 2017 - 06:37 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

naterist, on 24 September 2017 - 01:32 PM, said:

Ok, lets follow that logic train because its a good one. Fw is for units to go and prove their mettle.

Part 1, you got units mixing it up, going after each other, everythings brand new.

After a bit of time, its somewhat obvious who your just not capable of defeating.
Once that reality sinks in, people start despising seeing said teams because they know the outcome the minute they spawn, which means the next 30 minutes is pointless, and it will be ~30 minutes, because said teams will bypass the objective to kill every mech that spawns first.

There is not many teams out there I am incapable of beating with another team. Ok maybe EmP but even when we faced them it was 28/32-48 or something, I think that is a pretty solid showing and we walked away happy enough losing that one.

Initially I did get rickrolled by teams. Take KCom as an example. They were regularly giving me a beatdown but I'd queue up game after game. I would position better the next game, I'd do more damage. Back then I wasn't even driving the META. I was running my "Founders Deck" of 4 IS mechs. Atlas/Catapult/Hunchie/Jenner. Got to a point where against them I was cranking out 1500dmg+. A good showing IMO.

Fastforward 6-8 months later and when KCom etc see us (or a team I am in) in a group I know that they know it is no longer a one sided affair. We know the same thing. It will be a tough fight, it will require much better play than when facing other teams.

Times are good, fights are tough. Respect is real and we are all bloody good mates for it. It makes the game fun knowing the next 25mins you are gonna have to be on point the entire time game-play wise.

The problem is it's up to the individual to want to improve, many simply do not (fair enough, that is their call). I do private lobby practice on/off and last time I did it was ERL trading. I took on 4 new-ish players (one by one) and I think I got to 3.5 mechs killed to my one. After a few months of practice I would imagine if I took the same guys on again that I'd be a very different outcome - as that is what it's about - practice and learning.

[justcallme A S H]

Hell of late I've even been dropping on the FRR hub a bit (some days I'm not mentally capable, but when I am I do). Happy to take newer people into fights and so on. I show them what aggressive play style is like and how to win as IS. It's really not that hard.

Sometimes the newbies are totally perplexed after the first couple of matches and I often here comments like "Wow, those games were intense, the calls were fast, the mechs fell in seconds". Especially if I've got 3-4 of my good shooters in the grp . And that is what it is about. Said players are only doing 400-600dmg but over the course of the night that rises to 800dmg or so... They got better, they learnt... Hell some of the tactics or positioning they'd never even done before. That concerns me as it suggests they are just "QPing" it, that doesn't necessarily work all the time in FP, especially against a team.

Of course there is a bit of an inherent natural gaming ability some people have over others, I'm not that ignorant I see realise this. But I've seen some of the FRR Med brawl pushes - they are haphazard, literally a line of lemmings into firing lines. Gotta learn and be better than that for next time or get crushed. That play style isn't my preferred in FP - as it's risky, the reward is high though when it works.

People can always get better/improve at something. I'm still getting better with the more comp I play, hell even just shoutcasting matches it improved my gameplay by doing a lot of post-match analysis as that's my job when we cast.

I often say you get out what you put in.

[50 50]

With the current system we can't even see if there are any players on the other side to get a game against.
Then, it is still a problem to get a full 12 v 12.... or even just 12 and then wait 10 minutes for a ghost drop.
The mode seriously needs some changes to allow matches to start with smaller numbers.
If the level of participation is that bad, we need to be able to have 4 v 4 and 8 v 8 so we can just play the game.

Had a few drops on the weekend and while we were not winning a lot, we kept dropping and trying. But having to wait 10 minutes or more just to try and get enough players to form a team, then potentially not even get a game because the players on the other side are having the same problem.... that has got to be the biggest killer to the mode.

Maybe change it to groups only and not allow any solos, but also reduce the group requirements so we can get matches.

[justcallme A S H]

Oh and on Sat night FRR hub semi-rando team. We lost the first group drop on Alpine. People were mucking around, crap builds, poor trades and general tom foolery.

So yeah I made my displeasure known to the group (via TS, can't get a warning there!). Everyone spent 5mins getting their decks properly setup while having a think about the loss and I found my 10th beer. I think we then went on to win the next 8 games straight even against teams? I forget the numbers, I was pretty wasted by that point

Do I feel bad about getting a bit annoyed? Not really. No-one likes losing and if that is what it took to get everyone in the winning zone - Good. Cause everyone left on a high, preformed well after being solidly dominant from that point onward.

[Khalcruth]

MischiefSC, on 24 September 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

Again, no. The only people leaving because they lose while pugging are the people who don't want to play FW, they want QP with the FW maps/modes. No units were quitting because they were losing to better units. That's absurd. I played in every faction with almost every unit and never heard anyone even consider quitting FW because other people were beating them.

If you have not seen it happen, then you are flat out not paying attention. In fact, I'll contend that more have quit for this reason than for your mythical "the mode is not what was promised" reason.

[naterist]

justcallme A S H, on 24 September 2017 - 07:13 PM, said:

Oh and on Sat night FRR hub semi-rando team. We lost the first group drop on Alpine. People were mucking around, crap builds, poor trades and general tom foolery.

So yeah I made my displeasure known to the group (via TS, can't get a warning there!). Everyone spent 5mins getting their decks properly setup while having a think about the loss and I found my 10th beer. I think we then went on to win the next 8 games straight even against teams? I forget the numbers, I was pretty wasted by that point

Do I feel bad about getting a bit annoyed? Not really. No-one likes losing and if that is what it took to get everyone in the winning zone - Good. Cause everyone left on a high, preformed well after being solidly dominant from that point onward.

Thats my night, every night, however i do feel bad about having to strongarm people into going meta, and many who could, and i personally know many people who get turned off by it. In the end, people play the game to get an escape, theres very few people here to work at it like a second job, and in a mode scrambling for players, you need to accomadate what you can get, because this is the units playground were units dont really run into each other much.

[MischiefSC]

Khalcruth, on 24 September 2017 - 07:26 PM, said:

If you have not seen it happen, then you are flat out not paying attention. In fact, I'll contend that more have quit for this reason than for your mythical "the mode is not what was promised" reason.

Okay. Please show me the posts about it from 2014-2016.

I'll wait.

We can compare those to the posts bitching about the lack of depth and purpose.

The only people who've left are pugs, who were trying to play FW like it's QP. In the first 2 years of FW Davion was most of the IS population - by a big stretch. I'm still in the (now quiet) Davion Unit Leader whatsapp chat we had going to coordinate. It used to be hopping. Used to have 3, 4, 6 12mans running in Davion TS. I played with Marik back when Roadbeer was a respected member of the games community. There's still funny posts in the Kurita forum from when I played with them. I pugged with Steiner - true, my German is about as good as my Japanese (I know a bit of profanity) so it's theoretically possible that while we were grouping up to play against CJF (which was often KCom) again and again and again everyone was complaining. Except the consensus was that it was how you got good at the game. You'll have to ask teams like SRoT and Porkroll (who all got really good) about it. Of course there's those scrubs like NS, who literally got good playing day after day after day in IS vs at the time insanely OP Clans and teams like SJR and EmP again and again and again and again, until they in turn got very, very good.

Do you want to talk about FRR? You know, all those terribad scrubs with LRMs? You'll see them often playing in comp now.

No. Units didn't quit from that. Did pugs who didn't want to play in a team? Probably. Same reason people ragequit when their horrible lore build gets stomped repeatedly by meta. They want to win while doing something stupid and rage that it's everyone elses fault. Nothing of value was lost. Anyone who quit FW because they were having to play against good teams is better off gone. QP is just what they need. It tries to shelter them from their poor choices. The units though?

They left because no purpose, no depth. FW was in theory made for them.

Here's another post from FW Phase 2 even. Tell me again about how pugs were ever even thought about in the equation or that it wasn't intended to be pointed at units.

[Carl Vickers]

naterist, on 24 September 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

Thats my night, every night, however i do feel bad about having to strongarm people into going meta, and many who could, and i personally know many people who get turned off by it. In the end, people play the game to get an escape, theres very few people here to work at it like a second job, and in a mode scrambling for players, you need to accomadate what you can get, because this is the units playground were units dont really run into each other much.

You miss the point, yes we are here to have fun and escape from reality as such. Dont know about you, but I dont settle for mediocrity, if im doing something I want to do it to the best of my ability. This is not a game where you can load it onto your pc and become an instant number 1 player, takes time and after you have spent that time, it takes more time to go up more levels becoming even better than you were when you thought you had gotten better.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 24 September 2017 - 08:51 PM.