85 replies to this topic

[50 50]

Curccu, on 04 October 2017 - 01:52 AM, said:

I would love you to play elemental... max speed <11kph which is 3 time slower than stock urbie

Which is daft considering your average person can walk about that speed and the Elementals are 3 meter tall genetically engineered super soldiers wearing power armour,
Honestly.
Some git really didn't think that through.
They also seemed to have had trouble adding as the weight doesn't reflect the loadout at all.
Yet they carry a small laser (.5) an SRM 2 (.5) and have nearly a ton of armour.... and jump jets... and the claw.... and life support etc...
They should be closer to 4 tons each.

They could be viable for MWO without making them ridiculous and still tying in with some of the lore aspects.

I think stepping into some new ground development wise, and it's not a huge step with Elementals, would do more for the game in terms of variety and potentially shake up the combat more than any other mech will.

At this point for me with MWO, I would pay to be able to drop as an Elemental into battle. I don't think I will be buying any more mechs.

I've been keeping a thread alive in the feature suggestions from a couple of years ago but feel I should go and make my own one about getting Elementals added.

Edited by 50 50, 04 October 2017 - 06:03 PM.

[FupDup]

50 50, on 04 October 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

Which is daft considering your average person can walk about that speed and the Elementals are 3 meter tall genetically engineered super soldiers wearing power armour,
Honestly.
Some git really didn't think that through.
They also seemed to have had trouble adding as the weight doesn't reflect the loadout at all.
Yet they carry a small laser (.5) an SRM 2 (.5) and have nearly a ton of armour.... and jump jets... and the claw.... and life support etc...
They should be closer to 4 tons each.

Battle Armor items are generally lighter than their mech equivalents, like 200kg for the SL for example.

Still fairly wonky results though.

[Shadowomega1]

50 50, on 04 October 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

Which is daft considering your average person can walk about that speed and the Elementals are 3 meter tall genetically engineered super soldiers wearing power armour,
Honestly.
Some git really didn't think that through.
They also seemed to have had trouble adding as the weight doesn't reflect the loadout at all.
Yet they carry a small laser (.5) an SRM 2 (.5) and have nearly a ton of armour.... and jump jets... and the claw.... and life support etc...
They should be closer to 4 tons each.

They could be viable for MWO without making them ridiculous and still tying in with some of the lore aspects.

I think stepping into some new ground development wise, and it's not a huge step with Elementals, would do more for the game in terms of variety and potentially shake up the combat more than any other mech will.

At this point for me with MWO, I would pay to be able to drop as an Elemental into battle. I don't think I will be buying any more mechs.

I've been keeping a thread alive in the feature suggestions from a couple of years ago but feel I should go and make my own one about getting Elementals added.

The SRM 2 are one shot weapons, think of them more as Rocket Launcher 2s. Also there is a Power Armored version of the ppc as well.

As for viability in MW:LL I remember doing some very nasty things to many mechs while in Power armor.

[50 50]

It's all pretty sketchy.
Think I saw somewhere that the Elemental only weighed 1 ton.
Wtf.

Given the availability of the Civil War items now, there is a decent amount of scope for customizing the loadouts which makes them more appealing.
There are two choices in that regard.
Use the existing items which is easier... less development work, but there are a couple of small complications with ammo.
Introduce a brand new line of 'Battlearmour' items, which is obviously extra work but has the advantage of being able to tweak those items without affecting the others.
The ammo for the MG and SRM is such a small fraction these almost need to be a 'package' or new items.

I feel they could be introduced as a 20 ton equivalent if we treated them as a 4 ton unit and then had 5 spawns.
Without Inverse Kinetics to make them stand nicely as a group when they get to hills or bumps in the terrain (which is a big issue for the quads) then having a respawn option is the alternative.
Add a button to the spectator option to 'deploy' from another mech.
That even simulates the Elemental ability to ride on friendly Omnis.
This also helps with the squishy aspect. As a unit that does not have much armour and the internal structure is the Elemental themselves, being able to respawn a few extra times lessens that squishy aspect and avoids the need to make a single unit too powerful.

I have to admit to not delving too far into some of the later rule sets and focusing more on the TRO 3050 book where they were introduced.

Either way, think they would be a really interesting addition to MWO and something I would seriously support and fund.

[Shadowomega1]

Elementals weigh in at 1000 Kg which is about 1.1 short ton (American ton), 1 Metric ton, or 0.98 Long ton (Euro ton). While they have small lasers, SRM 2s, Flamers and the like those are all battle armor variants.

http://www.sarna.net...l_(Battle_Armor)

Edited by Shadowomega1, 04 October 2017 - 07:27 PM.

[AncientRaig]

LordNothing, on 04 October 2017 - 03:58 PM, said:

to be fair my mech was destroyed and i had punched out, made it to one of those infantry bunkers and bought the ppc to hold me over till i could cross the map to get a new mech. ran into an enemy lance on the way back. one lucky shot == one dead atlas.

Eh, fair enough I guess.

[adamts01]

As cool as this all sounds, lights were nerfed because most players couldn't even land shots on those things.

If something like this were to exist, it would have to be in an entirely different game. I still think MWO and Planetside 2 should have a baby. Elementals could function like Maxes in infantry fights, lights could mingle with infantry using extra-light MGs and flamers, and assaults would be almost solely for killing mechs, with heavies and mediums in-between. The problem with introducing them to this game is that our current weapons just aren't up to the task of hitting such a small target, except for MGs and Flamers. They'd just be an annoyance if introduced.

[FupDup]

adamts01, on 05 October 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

As cool as this all sounds, lights were nerfed because most players couldn't even land shots on those things.

If something like this were to exist, it would have to be in an entirely different game. I still think MWO and Planetside 2 should have a baby. Elementals could function like Maxes in infantry fights, lights could mingle with infantry using extra-light MGs and flamers, and assaults would be almost solely for killing mechs, with heavies and mediums in-between. The problem with introducing them to this game is that our current weapons just aren't up to the task of hitting such a small target, except for MGs and Flamers. They'd just be an annoyance if introduced.

Lasers can hit those small targets just fine because they're hitscan and let you "walk" the beam over the target. Hitting a trooper with a laser is mechanically the same as hitting them with an MG since both are instant-hit weapons.

Edited by FupDup, 05 October 2017 - 05:23 PM.

[adamts01]

FupDup, on 05 October 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

Hitting a trooper with a laser is mechanically the same as hitting them with an MG since both are instant-hit weapons.

The critical difference mechanically is the lack of spread on lasers. You have to move the beam directly over the target, where MGs are much more forgiving at hitting small targets. I suppose LBXs might fill this role as well, not sure if they have enough pellets to be reliable though. This is what I think will allow infantry to function if there ever was an open world Mechwarrior. Mech-sized weapons just aren't meant to hit small targets, not most of them anyway.

[FupDup]

adamts01, on 05 October 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

The critical difference mechanically is the lack of spread on lasers. You have to move the beam directly over the target, where MGs are much more forgiving at hitting small targets. I suppose LBXs might fill this role as well, not sure if they have enough pellets to be reliable though. This is what I think will allow infantry to function if there ever was an open world Mechwarrior. Mech-sized weapons just aren't meant to hit small targets, not most of them anyway.

The issue is that infantry are so small your MG cone of fire will cause many bullets to miss. It'll be pretty inefficient. I'd rather just take a group of like 4-5 Medium Lasers and chainfire them to create an unending deathray to sweep over the little guys.

[Lostdragon]

Elementals would be a cool consumable. The Invasion mechs' "special geometry" is mostly just handles for elementals anyway. It would be pretty cool to have a point of elementals ride your mech into battle then sick them on an enemy.

[50 50]

adamts01, on 05 October 2017 - 05:45 PM, said:

The critical difference mechanically is the lack of spread on lasers. You have to move the beam directly over the target, where MGs are much more forgiving at hitting small targets. I suppose LBXs might fill this role as well, not sure if they have enough pellets to be reliable though. This is what I think will allow infantry to function if there ever was an open world Mechwarrior. Mech-sized weapons just aren't meant to hit small targets, not most of them anyway.

The Elementals are probably big enough to not be a problem in this regard.
At 3+ meters tall they are going to be the size of the leg of a light mech, with the added disadvantage of moving no where near as fast as your typical light mech..... even if they had a top speed around 50kph.
Other than being able to take cover where mechs would be too large and how hard they might be to hit while jumping, hit registration should not be an issue at all.
Their biggest defense will be in not getting noticed. The small amount of armour they will possess could hardly be considered impenetrable.

Perhaps individually an Elemental will not achieve that much.
There is the ability/potential for one to take out a mech, but it is their function to combine with allied mechs and provide close support for them.
They might be considered a nuisance but this might be in the same way you might have considered some light mechs a nuisance. Ignore them at your own peril.

Not everyone is going to want to use them, but you could say that about pretty much any mech in the game.
If we want to shake up the combat a bit and provide some variety, I reckon Elementals will do it.
Consider this, we've just seen the announcement of the Pirahna.
Great to see it in game. We will see more mechs.
But what does it actually add? ....other than finally getting a 20 ton option for the Clan.
It is merely another fast, small mech that can boat lots of light weapons.
Does it offer anything truly different over perhaps what another variant of an Arctic Cheetah might add?
I would say no.
But Elementals that might give you pause before going into water, or that could be hiding in a small alcove ready to latch onto the leg of your mech or leap onto your back.... it changes the possibilities in combat, adds new tactics and variety to the battles.

[Bombast]

50 50, on 05 October 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

At 3+ meters tall they are going to be the size of the leg of a light mech,...

I'm pretty sure that, with how scaling works in this game, Elementals would be so small the Clans would have to be skip child soldiers and go for straight-out-of-the-iron-womb infant soldiers.

[50 50]

Bombast, on 05 October 2017 - 07:07 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that, with how scaling works in this game, Elementals would be so small the Clans would have to be skip child soldiers and go for straight-out-of-the-iron-womb infant soldiers.

Or, someone completely misunderstands and they are the size of an Atlas armed with a oneshot SRM 2 and a single Small Laser.

[Humpday]

would probably be too small no? Heck the locust and commando are already super tiny.
Wonder how fast an elemental would go?

[Bombast]

Humpday, on 05 October 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Wonder how fast an elemental would go?

10.8 km/h.

[Keith66AH]

IS should have a melee attack (point blank heavy damage to one location) while clans have an elemental swarm attack... medium damage at a short range that can be (shot down). All those rails on the omni mechs were there for a reason after all....


But melee is too hard to wrok into the game apparently.

FYI a single elemental would be about the size as an UAV

Edited by Keith66AH, 05 October 2017 - 08:04 PM.

[Bombast]

Keith66AH, on 05 October 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

But melee is too hard to wrok into the game apparently.

It's not that melee is necessarily hard to include - Good melee is hard to include. And balance. And to make usable without making the meleer sick. HBS gives us a hint at what melee is like.

That's gonna make people throw up.

Also, a ranged Elemental Attack that doesn't wrench control of your mech away from you would be SO MUCH BETTER than melee.

Edited by Bombast, 05 October 2017 - 08:10 PM.

[50 50]

There are enough first person games with melee combat out there to know it is possible.
The HBS Battletech game being a 3rd person tactical game and more importantly, turn based.....
At present I don't think we have the finesse of control with the mechs for melee combat.
However, given the game is built in CryEngine, you would think there might be a way to do it.

I would be really wary of Elementals as a consumable.
Can you imagine the sort of issues that might arise if the Clans could equip a consumable that you could fire at short range at a target that does X damage for no heat? It would be like a targeted single artillery shot. Ew..... I can sense the salt.
As some sort of AI consumable? Eeeuuurrrggghhhh.

I'll spend real money to play as an Elemental.
Not going to for a consumable.

[adamts01]

50 50, on 05 October 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

If we want to shake up the combat a bit and provide some variety, I reckon Elementals will do it.

This community doesn't like variety, not nearly as much as they claim to. We had small + agile mechs that didn't bring a lot of firepower and had paper for armor. All the whining got PGI to make them bigger, give them firepower quirks, add a ridiculous amount of hit points, and made them play like mediums. I suggested letting assaults be a little tankier after they lost their agility, but there's a bigger push to make them smaller and more manoeuvrable. basically in to heavies. I think most of the crowd that would like something like this picked up and left this wannabe e-sports mess. We're not getting Elementals in MWO, maybe in MWO2.