167 replies to this topic

[InvictusLee]

ST & LFE's would cease to be in wide use.
I love my LFES but honestly, I'd throw XLs my mechs in a heart beat, because from what I am able to discern from gameplay is that there is no real, tangible negative to running clan XLs.

Unless STs and LFEs got a movement buff of some kind over XLs of the same weight? but that seems like an oxymoron.

[Formosa The God]

Lets see.

Clan:
Less quirks
Longer base range weapons
Less mechs
Less "meta" mechs
longer duration
higher heat
less module health
smaller weapons
Clan XL

Inner Sphere.
more mechs
More "meta" mechs
lower Duration
Lower heat
Better module HP
massive amount of good/bad quirks
Longer range weapons after quirks (not all)
IS XL engine auto kills on loss of shoulder
MFE

Not an extensive list of course but just what I see playing this game, so if the IS got the same immunity as the Clan one, they would have to give up something, while I hate doing this it does come down to the "meta" mechs, the IS ones would gain far more from this change than is proportionate, so if they did get the benefit, I would say drop the tonnage down to 250 and raise the clan to 250 to see how the change plays out.

[Y E O N N E]

IS don't have lower heat. I mean, yes, the guns are colder, but when you actually build the 'Mech the Clans have way better sustained output, even after heat gen quirks are applied. Not even 10% is enough to close that gap.

The beam duration also doesn't buy you much except against tiny fast targets. The Clan damage superiority can compensate for that, and also allows you to zorch big 'Mechs much faster.

Not sure where you are getting that the IS have more "meta" 'Mechs. You mean 'Mechs with high hardpoints?

[MischiefSC]

Formosa The God, on 09 October 2017 - 07:31 PM, said:

Lets see.

Clan:
Less quirks
Longer base range weapons
Less mechs
Less "meta" mechs
longer duration
higher heat
less module health
smaller weapons
Clan XL

Inner Sphere.
more mechs
More "meta" mechs
lower Duration
Lower heat
Better module HP
massive amount of good/bad quirks
Longer range weapons after quirks (not all)
IS XL engine auto kills on loss of shoulder
MFE

Not an extensive list of course but just what I see playing this game, so if the IS got the same immunity as the Clan one, they would have to give up something, while I hate doing this it does come down to the "meta" mechs, the IS ones would gain far more from this change than is proportionate, so if they did get the benefit, I would say drop the tonnage down to 250 and raise the clan to 250 to see how the change plays out.

Please identify IS 'meta' mechs. There is one and only one - Wolfhound, and only in a very specific role.

Every single other meta mech in the game right now is Clan.

All of them.

IS does not have actual lower heat because Clans lower weight weapons, 1/2 size endo and smaller XL lets them get great use of 33% smaller (but equally as effective) DHS. Clan mechs that want to use the smaller, weaker alpha that IS mechs have to carry do so with a significantly better heat management.

The only 2 thinks that are actually correct on your list is more component health (there is nobody who's ever going to tell you it's relevant to gameplay in any measurable or significant way) and shorter duration. Given that human reaction speed is, at best, 0.25 seconds to begin with for responding to stuff that happens in the game plus a lag difference of 100 is = to another 0.1 second (it's often bigger than that) the shorter duration is almost irrelevant as well. Tiny relevance in narrow cases.

Clans have better range even with quirks in almost every single case. The exceptions are functionally inferior for heat management and ability to survive the trading involved.

[Formosa The God]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 October 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

IS don't have lower heat. I mean, yes, the guns are colder, but when you actually build the 'Mech the Clans have way better sustained output, even after heat gen quirks are applied. Not even 10% is enough to close that gap.

The beam duration also doesn't buy you much except against tiny fast targets. The Clan damage superiority can compensate for that, and also allows you to zorch big 'Mechs much faster.

Not sure where you are getting that the IS have more "meta" 'Mechs. You mean 'Mechs with high hardpoints?

Beam duration matters a lot, you get your damage in full before they can get in there damage in full, it adds up very quickly, and against good players (as i sure you know) your not gonna get to use that "zorsh" as they have already pulled back behind cover.

A few of the clans mechs can take enough heat sinks to become cooler than the IS ones, but they are rare in an already lacking roster, IS are definately held back by the 3 slot doubles.

IS have a much wider selection of mechs that would be considered "meta" or good in other words, this come from them just naturally having more mechs in the lore anyway, so with a wider selection, better duration, lower heat (on the whole) and the ability to alpha more lasers before ghost heat, a risk free XL would tip it over slightly too much, so rather than nerf any of the IS stuff, bring down the tonnage so they cant spam the top mechs, for QP... meh who cares.

[MischiefSC]

Formosa The God, on 09 October 2017 - 07:51 PM, said:

Beam duration matters a lot, you get your damage in full before they can get in there damage in full, it adds up very quickly, and against good players (as i sure you know) your not gonna get to use that "zorsh" as they have already pulled back behind cover.

A few of the clans mechs can take enough heat sinks to become cooler than the IS ones, but they are rare in an already lacking roster, IS are definately held back by the 3 slot doubles.

IS have a much wider selection of mechs that would be considered "meta" or good in other words, this come from them just naturally having more mechs in the lore anyway, so with a wider selection, better duration, lower heat (on the whole) and the ability to alpha more lasers before ghost heat, a risk free XL would tip it over slightly too much, so rather than nerf any of the IS stuff, bring down the tonnage so they cant spam the top mechs, for QP... meh who cares.

Again, you're incorrect. Clan mechs get more alphas before overheat, in fact with each alpha doing more damage. The IS has almost no real 'meta' mechs right now. The top several slots in each weight class, save lights where the Wolfhound is in the top 3 or 4.

The only mechs that are physically fast enough to get any value out of shorter laser burn are quick lights. Hence the Wolfhound. Regardless of your skill there's not really any heavies on the IS side that are nimble enough to actually get the full mech back into cover in the 0.2 second advantage you have. You can start twisting earlier but, again, the Clan mechs, shooting a much higher alpha, are doing as much or more damage per tic. So if you're shooting a 42pt alpha at an enemy who's shooting 63 back at you but your burn is 0.3 seconds faster, he's still going to do just as much damage as you do to him for the 0.6 seconds of your MPL burn, then he's going to do another 21 pts, much of it still on the same location because your mech can not shift 90 degrees in three tenths of a second.

The goal of overall weapon balance would be, absolutely, to remove quirks from IS and Clans and only have individual mechs quirked based on hitbox and hardpoint layout. So the Dragon still gets good quirks, as does the Summoner and Executioner, while the MC MKII and KDK3 get none.

To be clear though, all IS mechs save the Wolfhound are clearly inferior to not just one but several Clan mechs in each weight class and an average IS mech is still inferior to an average Clan mech. CEndo, CXL, CDHS, CFF, plus the weapon by weapon advantage of nearly all Clan weapons and the synergy that gives with the smaller endo, CXL and CDHS gives an overall very powerful advantage. You want to test it, I'll happily take an Orion IIC vs a regular Orion or an EBJ vs a THD, even with comparable loadouts (like ACs, SRMs and lasers for the Onions and MPLs for the EBJ/THD). Those are even some of the closest matches between IS and Clan at the same tonnage in the same role and it's still pretty one-sided.

[Formosa The God]

MischiefSC, on 09 October 2017 - 07:41 PM, said:

Please identify IS 'meta' mechs. There is one and only one - Wolfhound, and only in a very specific role.

Every single other meta mech in the game right now is Clan.

All of them.

IS does not have actual lower heat because Clans lower weight weapons, 1/2 size endo and smaller XL lets them get great use of 33% smaller (but equally as effective) DHS. Clan mechs that want to use the smaller, weaker alpha that IS mechs have to carry do so with a significantly better heat management.

The only 2 thinks that are actually correct on your list is more component health (there is nobody who's ever going to tell you it's relevant to gameplay in any measurable or significant way) and shorter duration. Given that human reaction speed is, at best, 0.25 seconds to begin with for responding to stuff that happens in the game plus a lag difference of 100 is = to another 0.1 second (it's often bigger than that) the shorter duration is almost irrelevant as well. Tiny relevance in narrow cases.

Clans have better range even with quirks in almost every single case. The exceptions are functionally inferior for heat management and ability to survive the trading involved.

You misunderstand, Meta doesnt mean Comp, it means the strongest strategies available at the time, comp play means literally nothing next to the much wider FW and QP crowds, so the Wolfhound is not the only meta mech.

So quirked out IS ER large range (because all the top players quirk out the range for these) on a battlemaster 910 meters, base clan is 740, thats 5 ER large at you for lower heat, duration and cooldown, 851 max for clan (because none of the "meta" clan mechs have a range quirk for lasers) for higher heat, duration and cooldown, your not winning that trade.

Clan boat mediums much better which is why you see them being used so much, and med pulse lasers, but a competent team will just plink you from there longer range and if you try to push, they will focus you down and back up to keep distance.

Thats just one example, but its why you see so many battlemasters in FW as the first drop, others are cyclops, maulers now (happy about that, love that mech), so if you take away the risk of the XL, you have mechs that are better at dishing out damage for no real risk.

[Willard Phule]

Yeonne Greene, on 09 October 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

IS don't have lower heat. I mean, yes, the guns are colder, but when you actually build the 'Mech the Clans have way better sustained output, even after heat gen quirks are applied. Not even 10% is enough to close that gap.

The beam duration also doesn't buy you much except against tiny fast targets. The Clan damage superiority can compensate for that, and also allows you to zorch big 'Mechs much faster.

Not sure where you are getting that the IS have more "meta" 'Mechs. You mean 'Mechs with high hardpoints?

Not even sure what the "meta" is nowadays. Laser vomit, for sure, and the new LMG spammers. But, ever since the skill trees got released, lots of things are performing well...depending on how you skill the mech. New guys didn't have millions of SP to draw from like a lot of the old timers do. It makes a difference. A KDK-3 that's skilled properly is still lethal in puglandia.

[Formosa The God]

MischiefSC, on 09 October 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

Again, you're incorrect. Clan mechs get more alphas before overheat, in fact with each alpha doing more damage. The IS has almost no real 'meta' mechs right now. The top several slots in each weight class, save lights where the Wolfhound is in the top 3 or 4.

The only mechs that are physically fast enough to get any value out of shorter laser burn are quick lights. Hence the Wolfhound. Regardless of your skill there's not really any heavies on the IS side that are nimble enough to actually get the full mech back into cover in the 0.2 second advantage you have. You can start twisting earlier but, again, the Clan mechs, shooting a much higher alpha, are doing as much or more damage per tic. So if you're shooting a 42pt alpha at an enemy who's shooting 63 back at you but your burn is 0.3 seconds faster, he's still going to do just as much damage as you do to him for the 0.6 seconds of your MPL burn, then he's going to do another 21 pts, much of it still on the same location because your mech can not shift 90 degrees in three tenths of a second.

The goal of overall weapon balance would be, absolutely, to remove quirks from IS and Clans and only have individual mechs quirked based on hitbox and hardpoint layout. So the Dragon still gets good quirks, as does the Summoner and Executioner, while the MC MKII and KDK3 get none.

To be clear though, all IS mechs save the Wolfhound are clearly inferior to not just one but several Clan mechs in each weight class and an average IS mech is still inferior to an average Clan mech. CEndo, CXL, CDHS, CFF, plus the weapon by weapon advantage of nearly all Clan weapons and the synergy that gives with the smaller endo, CXL and CDHS gives an overall very powerful advantage. You want to test it, I'll happily take an Orion IIC vs a regular Orion or an EBJ vs a THD, even with comparable loadouts (like ACs, SRMs and lasers for the Onions and MPLs for the EBJ/THD). Those are even some of the closest matches between IS and Clan at the same tonnage in the same role and it's still pretty one-sided.

I am not incorrect these are my observations having played 1724 hours in this game, I use both clan and IS mechs extensively and can see where both do well, without bias, Clan have better base weapons, thats true, I am not argueing that, IS have better "meta" weapons after quirks in certain fields, the current meta supports those fields, the advantage comes in when spamming the best mechs for the best fields, that closes the disparity in weapons and mechs quite quickly, now if you take away the risk of the XL, that disparity becomes much much worse, in favour of IS, as a player of both I dont want this, as PGI would just end up nerfing IS in other areas, rather than balancing the weights and seeing how it does.

[Formosa The God]

Willard Phule, on 09 October 2017 - 08:15 PM, said:

Not even sure what the "meta" is nowadays. Laser vomit, for sure, and the new LMG spammers. But, ever since the skill trees got released, lots of things are performing well...depending on how you skill the mech. New guys didn't have millions of SP to draw from like a lot of the old timers do. It makes a difference. A KDK-3 that's skilled properly is still lethal in puglandia.

Sadly I dont see the top teams really use much variation, for IS all I ever see is Battlemasters, cyclops, Assassins etc. For clan all I ever see are linebackers, arctic cheetas Marauder IIC, its pretty boring to be honest, but at least in normal FP games (I.E not 12 man drops) I see a massive amount of variety, which is great.

[Snowbluff]

Determining if IS is a XL build and killing it that way is a skill. It shouldn't change, and IS should be buffed elsewhere to compensate.

[Y E O N N E]

Formosa The God, on 09 October 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

You misunderstand, Meta doesnt mean Comp, it means the strongest strategies available at the time, comp play means literally nothing next to the much wider FW and QP crowds, so the Wolfhound is not the only meta mech.

The combat portion of FW is no different than any other game mode. The overarching strategy for Siege might be slightly different, because base-rushing for the coup de grace is the only actual meta that consistently works if the opposition is a near-even match, but the things that make a 'Mech good in QP and Comp also makes them good in FP and you see mostly the same 'Mechs doing well in all three. It's just...the IS can't bring the Clan 'Mechs, so they have to bring what gets them closest.

So, yeah, there are meta-conforming IS 'Mechs, but they are not as individually potent as the meta-conforming Clan 'Mechs except for the WLF, and ASN, and strong maybes for the BSW and MAL.

Quote

So quirked out IS ER large range (because all the top players quirk out the range for these) on a battlemaster 910 meters, base clan is 740, thats 5 ER large at you for lower heat, duration and cooldown, 851 max for clan (because none of the "meta" clan mechs have a range quirk for lasers) for higher heat, duration and cooldown, your not winning that trade.

I do not believe you are correct.

Energy range quirks on a BLR cap out at 10%. With 15% range nodes, that gets you to 843 m. With a TC Mk. I, that gets you to somewhere around 866 m (because none of the TCs work properly and they all provide less range boost than they indicate in the lab).

Meanwhile, a cERLL with just the 15% range nodes gets you to 851 m and adding a TC pushes you way over what you can get from a Battlemaster.

As for the heat, no. Not at all. You can check these tables to see how much more sustained output you get from something like a 5x cERLL SNV vs. a 5x ERLL BLR, but to save you the time it is 25% more after already accounting for the ghost heat firing 3x cERLL together in your group of 5. You can also see in the 10% tab that getting even a 10% extra bonus to heat gen doesn't help the BLR match the sustained output from the SNV. Only the SHS BNC-3M comes close after such a bonus (which it doesn't have in the game), but it still has a damage and range deficit.

Duration doesn't really factor in. You're talking about 45 over 1.435 s (0.935 + 0.5 for 3+2 stagger fire) for 31.4 DPS for the IS against 55 over 1.715 (same stagger fire) for 32.06 DPS. It's near enough as makes no difference, with a slight advantage for the Clan, actually.

Quote

Clan boat mediums much better which is why you see them being used so much, and med pulse lasers, but a competent team will just plink you from there longer range and if you try to push, they will focus you down and back up to keep distance.

Clans boat every single weapon better and the Clans can kite better, too.

Quote

Thats just one example, but its why you see so many battlemasters in FW as the first drop, others are cyclops, maulers now (happy about that, love that mech), so if you take away the risk of the XL, you have mechs that are better at dishing out damage for no real risk.

The BLR is empirically worse at dealing out damage than the SNV. The Cyclops empirically worse than the Kodiak. The Mauler might be better than a Direwolf, but tonnage limits stop us from really knowing.

Reall,y the only leg you have to stand on is that IS have better potential if XL get fixed somwhow because of the tonnage advantage, but the entire point of this exercise is to remove the need for that tonnage advantage in the first place.

[Mcgral18]

Formosa The God, on 09 October 2017 - 08:09 PM, said:

You misunderstand, Meta doesnt mean Comp, it means the strongest strategies available at the time, comp play means literally nothing next to the much wider FW and QP crowds, so the Wolfhound is not the only meta mech. So quirked out IS ER large range (because all the top players quirk out the range for these) on a battlemaster 910 meters, base clan is 740, thats 5 ER large at you for lower heat, duration and cooldown, 851 max for clan (because none of the "meta" clan mechs have a range quirk for lasers) for higher heat, duration and cooldown, your not winning that trade. Clan boat mediums much better which is why you see them being used so much, and med pulse lasers, but a competent team will just plink you from there longer range and if you try to push, they will focus you down and back up to keep distance. Thats just one example, but its why you see so many battlemasters in FW as the first drop, others are cyclops, maulers now (happy about that, love that mech), so if you take away the risk of the XL, you have mechs that are better at dishing out damage for no real risk.

Don't balance by Potato
Meta builds are the strongest builds, correct
The builds used by Comp teams, because they're superior


Notice how they're all Clam?
With a tiny handful of quirked (exclusively quirked) Spheroid robots?

Yeah, that's because the Sphere is inferior, and considerably weaker.

What's used in Comp typically works in every other mode too, aside from things which rely on teamwork (IE, brawl decks)

CW means literally nothing, stop mentioning it.

The Wolfhound and the Assassin are two, possibly the only two, Spheroid mechs taken over a Clam mech in it's stead.
MRBC saw some Onion's alongside O2Cs...because they chose to double another Chassis (a Clam chassis, generally)


Name me a Spheroid mech which has a higher LOLpha than a Clam?
Certainly NOT any Laservomit, because all Clam lasers deal more damage...and more are often taking ON TOP OF THAT (the glory of 30 DHS)

[Formosa The God]

Mcgral18, on 09 October 2017 - 09:42 PM, said:

Don't balance by Potato
Meta builds are the strongest builds, correct
The builds used by Comp teams, because they're superior


Notice how they're all Clam?
With a tiny handful of quirked (exclusively quirked) Spheroid robots?

Yeah, that's because the Sphere is inferior, and considerably weaker.

What's used in Comp typically works in every other mode too, aside from things which rely on teamwork (IE, brawl decks)

CW means literally nothing, stop mentioning it.

The Wolfhound and the Assassin are two, possibly the only two, Spheroid mechs taken over a Clam mech in it's stead.
MRBC saw some Onion's alongside O2Cs...because they chose to double another Chassis (a Clam chassis, generally)


Name me a Spheroid mech which has a higher LOLpha than a Clam?
Certainly NOT any Laservomit, because all Clam lasers deal more damage...and more are often taking ON TOP OF THAT (the glory of 30 DHS)

First off, not ballancing by potato, I have specifically mentioned top tier players.
Comp teams are a tiny proportion of players, there mechs dont always translate to normal games, most of those builds in the recent WWT work very well due to player skill more than the build.

I have specifically mentioned FW as that is where you see the most "meta" builds, not the tiny amount of comp games, comp games while fun to watch, mean nothing in the greater scale of the game.

Comp means nothing, stop mentioning it, especially as I have clearly been talking about FW, where the change would have the biggest impact.

I have never said anything about IS having a larger Alpha, where are you getting that? I have spoken about (several times) laser trades at long range, and optimised builds/decks, this is where IS mechs are proving the myth of clan longer range is false, clan players rarely if ever throw on anything larger than a Tcomp1, so IS can sit there with there battlemaster spam, have you ever had to face that?

Yeonne Greene, on 09 October 2017 - 08:44 PM, said:

The combat portion of FW is no different than any other game mode. The overarching strategy for Siege might be slightly different, because base-rushing for the coup de grace is the only actual meta that consistently works if the opposition is a near-even match, but the things that make a 'Mech good in QP and Comp also makes them good in FP and you see mostly the same 'Mechs doing well in all three. It's just...the IS can't bring the Clan 'Mechs, so they have to bring what gets them closest.

So, yeah, there are meta-conforming IS 'Mechs, but they are not as individually potent as the meta-conforming Clan 'Mechs except for the WLF, and ASN, and strong maybes for the BSW and MAL.



I do not believe you are correct.

Energy range quirks on a BLR cap out at 10%. With 15% range nodes, that gets you to 843 m. With a TC Mk. I, that gets you to somewhere around 866 m (because none of the TCs work properly and they all provide less range boost than they indicate in the lab).

Meanwhile, a cERLL with just the 15% range nodes gets you to 851 m and adding a TC pushes you way over what you can get from a Battlemaster.

As for the heat, no. Not at all. You can check these tables to see how much more sustained output you get from something like a 5x cERLL SNV vs. a 5x ERLL BLR, but to save you the time it is 25% more after already accounting for the ghost heat firing 3x cERLL together in your group of 5. You can also see in the 10% tab that getting even a 10% extra bonus to heat gen doesn't help the BLR match the sustained output from the SNV. Only the SHS BNC-3M comes close after such a bonus (which it doesn't have in the game), but it still has a damage and range deficit.

Duration doesn't really factor in. You're talking about 45 over 1.435 s (0.935 + 0.5 for 3+2 stagger fire) for 31.4 DPS for the IS against 55 over 1.715 (same stagger fire) for 32.06 DPS. It's near enough as makes no difference, with a slight advantage for the Clan, actually.



Clans boat every single weapon better and the Clans can kite better, too.



The BLR is empirically worse at dealing out damage than the SNV. The Cyclops empirically worse than the Kodiak. The Mauler might be better than a Direwolf, but tonnage limits stop us from really knowing.

Reall,y the only leg you have to stand on is that IS have better potential if XL get fixed somwhow because of the tonnage advantage, but the entire point of this exercise is to remove the need for that tonnage advantage in the first place.

SNV vs Battlemaster, what on earth are you talking about? the Battlemaster is superior where it matters, you can easily fit multiple in a deck, losing one doesnt gimp you as severely as losing a SNV in a clan deck, so yes in FW, Battlemasters are simply better.

The Cylops is a closer match, but again, in a drop deck spamming cyclops is much better and easier than spamming Kodiaks.

The mauler IS better than the Dire wolf, which is a terrible mech full stop, while I enjoy using mine, its too slow, sluggish and very easy to disable, that mech needs some slight buffs.

That comparison of ERLL is flawed from the outset, you wont see supernovas in FW in a good team, they take up too much tonnage, this is why you very rarely see any assault on clan side, other than the Marauder IIC, they are simply too big for tonnage.

Duration absolutely factors in, when I am trading with my Battlemaster in FW I can get full burn in and back off usually before my target has had a chance to track me and return fire, and if they do, so what, I outrange them and get more damage in.
The 910 range is spot on before Tcomps, 10% range boost, skill tree capped out at 910 when I added them up from MWO, taken straight from the game.

[Johnny Z]

To make it short, I am not for this.

[Y E O N N E]

Formosa The God, on 09 October 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

First off, not ballancing by potato, I have specifically mentioned top tier players.

Who are you calling top-tier players?

Quote

SNV vs Battlemaster, what on earth are you talking about? the Battlemaster is superior where it matters, you can easily fit multiple in a deck, losing one doesnt gimp you as severely as losing a SNV in a clan deck, so yes in FW, Battlemasters are simply better.

AKA, only better because the IS have a tonnage advantage allowing them to bring more...which they have because their 'Mechs are actually worse.

Quote

The Cylops is a closer match, but again, in a drop deck spamming cyclops is much better and easier than spamming Kodiaks.

But ton for ton, it's not a match at all. Again, only somewhat worth it because Clans have been given a handicap.

Have any other defense that doesn't fall back on a deliberate handicap implemented because of the very things we are trying to tell you?

Quote

The mauler IS better than the Dire wolf, which is a terrible mech full stop, while I enjoy using mine, its too slow, sluggish and very easy to disable, that mech needs some slight buffs.

The Mauler is slow, sluggish, and easy to disable. It also runs hotter. The buffs it had that made it properly good were reduced a long time ago, now whether you choose a DWF or a MAL is dependent upon the map. If you don't need to get far from spawn to have a dominating power position, the DWF is a fine choice. If you do, then the MAL will serve you better.

Calling it flat-out terrible is just displaying ineptitude. It might be sub-optimal for tonnage reasons (hey, there's that stale fallback again), but it has niches in which it can dominate.

Quote

That comparison of ERLL is flawed from the outset, you wont see supernovas in FW in a good team, they take up too much tonnage, this is why you very rarely see any assault on clan side, other than the Marauder IIC, they are simply too big for tonnage.

The comparison is just as true on a Marauder IIC or a Warhawk, since all you lose from the SNV is a single DHS.

So, no.

Quote

Duration absolutely factors in, when I am trading with my Battlemaster in FW I can get full burn in and back off usually before my target has had a chance to track me and return fire, and if they do, so what, I outrange them and get more damage in.

No, it doesn't. Even if you don't get a full burn with the cERLL, with 5x you are doing slightly more damage in the same amount of time, so you have the option to pull off at the same time marker to have the same result on target or you can keep going to dump more into the target so new components get weakened over time, amplifying the opportunities for your allies.

And you will out-range and out-damage the BLR.

Quote

The 910 range is spot on before Tcomps, 10% range boost, skill tree capped out at 910 when I added them up from MWO, taken straight from the game.

It is not spot on, that is 100% false. That 910 meters is a figure 12 months out of date as there are no current Battlemasters which can get the requisite 35% range boost without going up to a TC Mk. VIII...which you won't ever do because it's 8 tons and 8 slots and precludes you from fitting more than four ERLL in the torsos without going to a STD engine. The BLR-1G can get a 20% range boost to Medium and ER Medium lasers, but that does not apply to ER Large.

You can go check the game right now. I'll wait. In the meantime, here's my Jester since I don't have a BLR-1G anymore. It has the same 10% range quirk that no Battlemaster exceeds for Large-class lasers. No TComp is installed:



843 meters. I have strong doubts you can prove me wrong on this.

[Formosa The God]

Ok I see where I went wrong with the BLR, for some reason I was adding 35%???? even though I can clearly see its 25% total, I was wrong, my apologies, so with that in mind clan average I see is 800m with firepower tree for duration (again most common i see for clan in FW), vs IS range build, 843, still a longer range, its worse for ERPPC, but I rarely see IS ones to be fair.

Top tier players, 420, Irex MS, I have seen them all spam BLR with either LPL or 4/5 ERLL with these optimal range builds, then banchees etc. even saw one of them drop a 12 man cyclops/Fafnir rush, brutal.

I have not once claimed IS mechs are superior, in fact I have said they perform better in the meta which is extreme range, because at the moment for the tonnage, they do, nothing you have shown me so far is disproving this, Clan mechs are generally better at base, IS become better with quirks and skill tree, but the IS roster is more diverse so the disparity seems worse. IS mechs used to be much worse than clan, new tech and skill tree has brought them closer together, but the tonnage remains the same (dont have an issue with this), however due to the wider range of "good" IS mechs they are able to exploit the tonnage much better than the Clans currently can (until they get there 20 ton mech, that will shake things up a bit), this means in that enviroment the Good IS heavies and assaults can be spammed so the Clan Advantage is mitigated more by pilot skill than by lack of weapon parity.

Yep the Mauler has some of the same issues the Dire wolf has, but having used both, its easy to see the mauler is better, it is also generally accepted that Dire Whale is a terrible mech for FW due to its hitboxes, slowness and large size, the apparent fact that you dont seem to know this seems to show your ineptitude.

No the Marauder IIC is not a very good ERLL boat, its a great dual large and med boat, you are wasting it if you are using it as a LL boat, which apparently you should know, so you are either being wilfully ignorant or just trying to argue for the sake of it.

No you are wrong on that, time and time again I see IS ERLL meta builds just pick apart clan from a longer range, and have done it myself, I am now getting the distinct impression you are being extremely biased against clans for some reason.

So back to point, changing the IS XL to not kill the mech on loss of a side torso would not balance the factions, it would tip it in favour of IS, so, as I have been saying all along, try it, reduce the tonnage of IS to 250 and up clan to 250 and see what happens, because I do not want them to buff the XL just to nerf IS in other areas to make the buff pointless, because we both know that PGI would do this.

[MischiefSC]

@Formosa;

given that I play a lot of FW I'm very familiar with IS and Clan balance. I've played it since the beginning and played almost all of it so far as an IS Loyalist (Davion). I played in IS when balance was at its best (before KDK release) and have played it since then. I haven an embarasing amount of hours in this game and it's a lot more than 1700.

Clans still destroy IS, Clan mechs are significantly superior and the BLR is no serious threat. There are no IS mechs, save the Wolfhound with lasers for trading in a situation where the Wolfhound can safely trade, that is as good as a group of Clan mechs. Even Clan mechs that are 5 or 10 tons lighter.

If you want I will happily 1 v 1 you, you can pick an IS mech and I'll take a Clan mech 5 or 10 tons lighter.

I'm not looking at your stats and would not say they're the end all be all of who is better but I'll invite you to look at mine, both for my QP stats and especially my FW stats. I know exactly what wins and why, especially in FW and haven't just played both sides in FW but have played with most units. WIthout question a 5 ERLL BLR is not a serious threat anymore. It was, some months ago, but not any more. It's not even a serious mid range mech. I would at this point recommend a Zeus over a BLR just because the quirks are overall better and you can go with a solid side poke gaussvomit or even 2xHPPC, 2xAC5 build which hits surprisingly hard. Gaussvomit BH2 is also pretty solid. In general with IS right now you're a lot better off going with 4 heavies and running the first 2 waves in firing lines, trying to force as close a kill count as possible so you can run waves 3 and 4 with a significant tonnage advantage. Running assaults on wave 1 vs Clan assaults like the MAD and MC MKII just throws your advantages away.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Formosa The God, on 10 October 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

Top tier players, 420, Irex MS, I have seen them all spam BLR with either LPL or 4/5 ERLL with these optimal range builds, then banchees etc. even saw one of them drop a 12 man cyclops/Fafnir rush, brutal.

Tell me, where can I get a Fafnir in MWO?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Formosa The God, on 10 October 2017 - 12:32 AM, said:

Irex MS

MS hasn't been top tier for a couple of years now, lol

Outside of the rare situations like when ISEN was promoting FW hard enough that EmP got involved, you won't see top teams bothering with FW because of how it ends up somehow worse than QP skill wise unless you manage to queue up against another baby seal clubbing team.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 October 2017 - 09:04 AM.