160 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

poopenshire, on 09 October 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

I have a question, I have seen it hinted at but not fully discussed.

We know we already have a timeout timer for team damage and it progressively increases for repeated infractions (it includes TKs)

Is this system maybe on the right path but needs to be increased in penalties or does it need to lead to different penalties?

Edit: added "timeout"

In my view, different penalties. Or rather - I prefer a nonpenalizing effect like the suggestion to turn off friendly fire for the cadet matches (if this is feasible in game.)

The difficulty here is that penalties only work on people who care about them, and serial trolls who are leveraging the free-to-play aspect of the game to create endless new accounts and kill teammates with trial 'mechs don't care. In fact, trolls love penalties for team killing and damage, because that is the only way the team has to stop their rampage - punishing people who do care for defending themselves while the troll simply moves on is a classic trolling tactic.

[Buenaventura]

Some weeks ago I had the pleasure of meeting a TKer, once in my team, twice in the enemy team. First two were the same account (according to the name at least), third time the name was different.
Since I'm Tier 4 and dropping solo in QP only ... I'd have to get to T3 to avoid them. But iirc I didn't meet him/them again after these 3 occurances spread over a few days.

[SFC174]

The solution is rather simple. Damage reflection.

I believe friendly fire should be maintained, if for no other reason than to prevent risk free danger close arty and air strikes (which happen too often anyways).

But to TK someone at the start of a match typically requires at least 50 pts dmg (unless you're picking on lights). So its quite simple:

1. If you do over 50 pts team dmg, any additional team dmg is now reflected back on you. After the first double tap on your dakka Kodiak (which seems to be the preferred TK mech from what I'm reading) all you're doing is killing yourself.

2. If you do manage do to the 50+ pts dmg and then stop killing yourself, you also turn a different color and you're fair game for your teammates.

This won't stop you from changing colors and hurting yourself if you misplace a strike on a couple friendlies, but better that you suffer than they do. The team suffers regardless.

It's a simple solution, preserves friendly fire risk, and takes away the fun for the TKers. Of the 4-5 TKs I've committed in my MWO career most took less than 20 pts dmg on an already badly damaged friendly (did one with 1 pt dmg once). So it won't affect that vast majority of accidental TKs. The only difficult part is can PGI code it?

[Brain Cancer]

Dogstar, on 08 October 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

@poopenshire - The game would be a lot friendlier if there was no friendly fire - maybe you could suggest it to the devs

I already end up with TKs from people so greedy for kills that they'll literally run in front of my missile salvos so they can get that sweet red CT I've tenderized.

And then the 50 or so missiles hit them in the back and they explode. I really don't want them just bouncing off harmlessly, even with the TK penalty. There should be a price for stupid.

[50 50]

Rampage, on 08 October 2017 - 12:08 PM, said:

If they are required to complete the Academy and cycle 25 cadet matches before they can TK then I am betting that it will be more work than they are willing to do to get their jollies.

I stalked one of them on reddit and found evidence that shows they have a history of griefing in other games such as CS:GO and CoD. This is what they do for fun. You just have to make it more work than fun and they will move on.

I like the Academy idea.
Do the intro and perhaps also do each of the different challenges as a requirement before you can even start on the cadet levels.
That works both ways as new players who want to play properly also come in at a higher skill level.

[Shifty McSwift]

Yeah the cadet training period is a decent thought. Is 25 games enough to deter multi accounting becomes the question there?

I doubt they want to actually stop multi accounting (you don't want the "timer" for normal play to be so high it deters multi accounting entirely as well as new players), but stopping the abuses caused by the potential for infinite accounts is certainly something they should be concerned about.

[Elizander]

I was thinking there'd be something more automated in terms of TKing such as if a player is constantly racking up multiple kills or high TK early on in the match (within the first 2 minutes so it won't count late accidental team kills) then the system should give them a significant time out on the 3rd offense at the latest to prevent them from going on a 10-20 game TK spree.

Along with the long time out, give them a reminder that it's a team game and you're not supposed to shoot your team (in the even they are newbies) and recommend to them to go back to the Academy lesson that teaches you about red squares.

Of course this system will just change the pattern of TK griefing to them playing along for the first 2 minutes (or whatever time the system decides) before unloading into teammates.

Shifty McSwift, on 09 October 2017 - 10:38 PM, said:

Yeah the cadet training period is a decent thought. Is 25 games enough to deter multi accounting becomes the question there?

I doubt they want to actually stop multi accounting (you don't want the "timer" for normal play to be so high it deters multi accounting entirely as well as new players), but stopping the abuses caused by the potential for infinite accounts is certainly something they should be concerned about.

I agree that the important part is to not punish the majority of your regular players for the sins of the few.

[Shifty McSwift]

A couple of aesthetic changes that wouldn't hurt either;

1. Make team dealt damage register as purple on the guy getting hits HUD, so he immediately knows if it was enemy fire or a misfire or a troll.

2. Have a comms sound play "check your fire" and have that come up in the offending players text box too, to immediately let a player who misfires know they did, and to let trolls know that it can be tracked like that.

It won't solve everything, but these should really already be in, as it is about instant communication without forcing that from the player in all instances, similar to monitoring your lances health levels in the top left.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

Buenaventura, on 09 October 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

Some weeks ago I had the pleasure of meeting a TKer, once in my team, twice in the enemy team. First two were the same account (according to the name at least), third time the name was different.
Since I'm Tier 4 and dropping solo in QP only ... I'd have to get to T3 to avoid them. But iirc I didn't meet him/them again after these 3 occurances spread over a few days.

Thats what i am hearing too. I think all those TK crying are really overinflated due to one evening where some got it a few times.

[Peter2k]

Elizander, on 09 October 2017 - 10:45 PM, said:

I was thinking there'd be something more automated in terms of TKing such as if a player is constantly racking up multiple kills or high TK early on in the match (within the first 2 minutes so it won't count late accidental team kills) then the system should give them a significant time out on the 3rd offense at the latest to prevent them from going on a 10-20 game TK spree.

Along with the long time out, give them a reminder that it's a team game and you're not supposed to shoot your team (in the even they are newbies) and recommend to them to go back to the Academy lesson that teaches you about red squares.

Of course this system will just change the pattern of TK griefing to them playing along for the first 2 minutes (or whatever time the system decides) before unloading into teammates.



I agree that the important part is to not punish the majority of your regular players for the sins of the few.

That sounds like the system that is in place now

You get penalties based on TK damage and kills in steps

Only if you get more aggressive with the thresholds and penalties than you're gonna have a riot of Tier 1 players why they have to wait that long

Edited by Peter2k, 10 October 2017 - 04:27 AM.

[AJBennett]

Cara Carcass, on 10 October 2017 - 02:40 AM, said:

Thats what i am hearing too. I think all those TK crying are really overinflated due to one evening where some got it a few times.

...easy to say for a T1 player honestly, since you don't see them except in T 4-5 play. I'm fairly sure that if there were habitual TKers in T1 (...and they could dodge the system) you'd be singing a different tune.

The solution I'd like to see is that the habitual TKer turns pink and is fair game w/o penalty counting as a kill like in another game that shall not be named.

Edited by AJBennett, 10 October 2017 - 04:36 AM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

AJBennett, on 10 October 2017 - 04:29 AM, said:

...easy to say for a T1 player honestly, since you don't see them except in T 4-5 play. I'm fairly sure that if there were habitual TKers in T1 (...and they could dodge the system) you'd be singing a different tune.

The solution I'd like to see is that the habitual TKer turns pink and is fair game w/o penalty counting as a kill like in another game that shall not be named.

Did you even bother to read anything i wrote so far? I am asking because your responses seem to simply ignore that i repeatedly stated that i asked around. I know manny t5 players who play solo a lot. i asked different units and i also asked in all chat before games started with a lot of ppl responding that they are t5 solo que and they never had that problem. Or maximum 1 or two times during a whole month of regular gaming. Perhaps you start reading what i actually wrote and not respond to what you think it must be like for me.

Now that i know only of this TK stuff going on from 3 or 4 peolple he in this forum i wonder what the actual problem is. Some isolated evening wher it happend a lot. Some isolated people who had bad luck with a few games over one evening or whatever combination you cna think off. I posted an idea on how to handle it. But before PGi does anything i now would rather like to see a statistic includeing tier lebvels time in game passed before tk happend dmg done to get teh teamkill etc. before i belive anything. And again i acknowledge that it must have happened to a few but i dont belive there are hundreds of players with hundreds of accounts doing this to every rank 5 player over an evening. Also if what i read is correct the main population of MWO is rank 5 players this would mean a large majority of players would be here complaining about it instead of 3 to 4 players.

Also i started that statisic a few replies back. Perhap you start your own and you do it honestly to show how often this happens.

Edited by Cara Carcass, 10 October 2017 - 06:16 AM.

[Dr Cara Carcass]

SFC174, on 09 October 2017 - 08:30 PM, said:

The solution is rather simple. Damage reflection.

I believe friendly fire should be maintained, if for no other reason than to prevent risk free danger close arty and air strikes (which happen too often anyways).

But to TK someone at the start of a match typically requires at least 50 pts dmg (unless you're picking on lights). So its quite simple:

1. If you do over 50 pts team dmg, any additional team dmg is now reflected back on you. After the first double tap on your dakka Kodiak (which seems to be the preferred TK mech from what I'm reading) all you're doing is killing yourself.

2. If you do manage do to the 50+ pts dmg and then stop killing yourself, you also turn a different color and you're fair game for your teammates.

This won't stop you from changing colors and hurting yourself if you misplace a strike on a couple friendlies, but better that you suffer than they do. The team suffers regardless.

It's a simple solution, preserves friendly fire risk, and takes away the fun for the TKers. Of the 4-5 TKs I've committed in my MWO career most took less than 20 pts dmg on an already badly damaged friendly (did one with 1 pt dmg once). So it won't affect that vast majority of accidental TKs. The only difficult part is can PGI code it?

Yeah damage reflection is good untill one troll figures out he can hurt you while dancing between you and the enemy.....

[AJBennett]

Cara Carcass, on 10 October 2017 - 06:08 AM, said:

Did you even bother to read anything i wrote so far? I am asking because your responses seem to simply ignore that i repeatedly stated that i asked around. I know manny t5 players who play solo a lot. i asked different units and i also asked in all chat before games started with a lot of ppl responding that they are t5 solo que and they never had that problem. Or maximum 1 or two times during a whole month of regular gaming. Perhaps you start reading what i actually wrote and not respond to what you think it must be like for me.

Now that i know only of this TK stuff going on from 3 or 4 peolple he in this forum i wonder what the actual problem is. Some isolated evening wher it happend a lot. Some isolated people who had bad luck with a few games over one evening or whatever combination you cna think off. I posted an idea on how to handle it. But before PGi does anything i now would rather like to see a statistic includeing tier lebvels time in game passed before tk happend dmg done to get teh teamkill etc. before i belive anything. And again i acknowledge that it must have happened to a few but i dont belive there are hundreds of players with hundreds of accounts doing this to every rank 5 player over an evening. Also if what i read is correct the main population of MWO is rank 5 players this would mean a large majority of players would be here complaining about it instead of 3 to 4 players.

Also i started that statisic a few replies back. Perhap you start your own and you do it honestly to show how often this happens.

Yes, I did read your posts and its clear that you missed the threads on the forums about the TKers rampage OR you would have known it was not "hundreds doing it"..."isolated" or "one bad evening" it was weeks...though it seems to have dropped off recently...very recently to the levels you're describing in your post. The "now closed" thread titled "Tier 5 Tk Trolls" clearly refutes your belief that it was just happening to 3 or 4 isolated people just crying "TKer". Its clear you didn't talk to me or members of my Unit (among other fairly well known Units and players in MWO), They and I ran into them several times a night in drops over the course of a few weeks (as did the other 22-23 players in the matches despite side) as well as several Twich-casters and youtubers that presented videos of the TKers in action and PGI officially responding that they are "...watching accounts..." (whatever that means)...so its not hard to imagine that your "asking" wasn't as broad, in-depth, or far-reaching as you believe it was. I see no point in re-doing what others have already as far as exposing the issue as wide spread and a problem that needs to be dealt with. I challenge YOU to produce this ethereal statistical analysis you mention that apparently flies in the face of reality...whatever. *shrug*

...videos like this...

https://youtu.be/XXFX6gaxWgc

https://youtu.be/KUwpI4XNOBc

Edited by AJBennett, 10 October 2017 - 08:48 AM.

[James Argent]

Nobody ever said there were hundreds of people doing this, there's only two that do it. But it's confirmed that they have multiple accounts...by their own words, hundreds of them...and because of that, banning them on one account each after they TK on it doesn't work.

No matter how many anecdotes you are able to compile on a completely unscientific 'everybody I know' survey, you will never get the complete picture...which for several good reasons, PGI will never share. In any case, if you're right and we're all wasting our time, why do you care so much to try to dissuade us from discussing it? Isn't new player protection a worthy enough goal to implement preventative measures?

[Shifty McSwift]

James Argent, on 10 October 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

Nobody ever said there were hundreds of people doing this, there's only two that do it. But it's confirmed that they have multiple accounts...by their own words, hundreds of them...and because of that, banning them on one account each after they TK on it doesn't work.

No matter how many anecdotes you are able to compile on a completely unscientific 'everybody I know' survey, you will never get the complete picture...which for several good reasons, PGI will never share. In any case, if you're right and we're all wasting our time, why do you care so much to try to dissuade us from discussing it? Isn't new player protection a worthy enough goal to implement preventative measures?

Exactly, and one person can potentially ruin a lot of games. TKing or griefing is something I see once every 50 games or more, but the potential for this to effect new players is clearly a bad thing for everyone.

[poopenshire]

I fear even saying/asking if this is possible but could a limit to the number accounts can sign on for a single installation work?

say 12 log ons max per installation?

I know with VMs you can have many installations, but man to download and install that many VMs with MWO. You have to absolutely have no life at all.

[Jman5]

I really think the idea of disabling friendly fire for the first 25 games is the most elegant solution presented. Not only would it make the creation of these troll-accounts ridiculously time-consuming, but it would help ease new players into the game.

[AJBennett]

poopenshire, on 10 October 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

I fear even saying/asking if this is possible but could a limit to the number accounts can sign on for a single installation work?

say 12 log ons max per installation?

I know with VMs you can have many installations, but man to download and install that many VMs with MWO. You have to absolutely have no life at all.

Interesting thought, maybe a installation registration or license code sent to your email being required to create an account or something like that which would link an account to the game installation? A bit harsh for people that have alts for legit (non-griefing) reasons but...the issue drives new players away from the game.

Edited by AJBennett, 10 October 2017 - 07:20 AM.

[AJBennett]

James Argent, on 10 October 2017 - 06:33 AM, said:

...if you're right and we're all wasting our time, why do you care so much to try to dissuade us from discussing it? Isn't new player protection a worthy enough goal to implement preventative measures?

...makes one wonder doesn't it?