290 replies to this topic

[Shak3 n Bak3]

I think somebody needs to "Balance" PGI...when is Microsoft gonna take over again...dare I say it...I'm starting to miss when they were involved!

They say they want to avoid knee jerk changes...yet that is all PGI does very well. Welcome to Knee-jerk Online!

Edit: I am also considering Nightstar refund coz of Droopy Arms Gate and all, and all this would avoid me dropping another dime! Somebody there needs to get fired!

Edited by Shak3 n Bak3, 14 October 2017 - 04:08 AM.

[AngrySpartan]

Every time I am actually tempted to spend a dime on MWO (12 LMG/15 microL Piranha!!!) I always wait for patch notes to make sure it'll worth it. Keep it up saving my money PGI!

The only good thing in this patch is a 100-tonners mobility buff, and even than there is a screw up with Spirit Bear being worse than regular KDKs.

[Marius Evander]

Stopped playing GHR-5P when they removed its armor (I had 3 of them for a dropdeck, they were a little overpowered, (SO PGI adds another hero GHR-Mjolnir that you have to buy with more armor than the P that could do the same build with slightly worse mounting locations....) Now they nerf the GHR-5P even more ? rofl I had not taken the mech out of the garage once since the armor nerfs, I had started playing the GHR-5H occasionally, meh they have killed that now too.... but wait, guess what ! no changes to the MJOLNIR ! rofl , are there a lot of GHR lore fanboys that PGi are trying to milk for cash by trying to get them to buy MJOLNIR ? (dw guys a few months after you buy it they will finally nerf it)

Catten Hart, on 13 October 2017 - 09:21 PM, said:

Just... What the hell? First of all, STOP NERFING THE DAMN GRASSHOPPER. I don't care how much the freaking devs hate it, stop nerfing the damn thing. It's been nerfed more than enough.

Appogee, on 14 October 2017 - 12:29 AM, said:

Sad to see my GHR-5Hs get nerfed.

Can't have a competitive IS energy Mech in FP now, can we.

Buy a MJOLNIR =p or a BOUNTY HUNTER ! =p P2W!

Could name at least 4 - 5 mechs split across the 2 factions that needed nerfs a lot more badly than Grasshoppers.

[Bud Crue]

These changes...UAC5s, the energy cool down silliness, the Grasshoppers, etc.
I think I figured it out.
The never ending nerf madness is not about any sort of "balance" its about making a statement.
That's right...this is not a game...its statment art.

I can hear the museum curator now:

"Here we have MWO. An often misunderstood work by the artist known as "PGI". As you can see, the artist is making a statement that math is hard and is expressing hatred for its consistent application. Here too the artist makes clear an aloofness to the idea that a game is to be played for fun, and instead seeks to illustrate contempt for those who get enjoyment from playing a game. Truly bold given the medium and thusly, even a casual observer cannot help but be struck by the bold overtones showing that what the viewer enjoys is irrelevant to the artist, but that the only thing with which the artist is concerned is making sure that the viewer understands the artists loathing for the viewer as well as for the medium and the very work of art itself! An amazing work really."

Very avant-garde PGI. Truly breathtaking.

[Delta1262 Scorch]

Just when i was hearing good things about the new guy behind the balancing work...and here it is, wave of absurd nerfs.
-Nerf ATMs spread because it kinda has artemis inside already, and we are nerfing artemis that's why....but hey, isn't artemis bonus working only with direct line of sight etc, so then why ATMs getting spread nerf overall?
-ER Mediums with cooldown longer then ER Large? Really? I'm not even saying about logical reason. How is that even possible? (and no, it's not the only prob. in the energy weapon nerfs, it's most screaming and ridiculous to accent the scale).
No matter how many nice stuff you say in notes, it doesn't look better because numbers are still too obvious and are showing the real situation.

P.S: Also i wonder what's gonna break with this update, because every update break something in the game, seems like it just can't go the normal way. More interesting that months are coming and i still can't see the fixes of that, so the list is just increasing. No matter how many times i wrote about that - Nova's left arm is still broken for half of the year+, SH-cat RA energy hitbox is still messed up on all omnipods since release of the Hero, Eb.Jag energy single highmounts are still not equal, Marauder 2c has that glitch animation while turning, the same that Nova had like year ago, etc...
And they are asking why i can't recommend this game to anyone. Or what is so great in it that i'm playing it for so long (and yeah, i don't know what to answer here)...

Edited by Delta1262 Scorch, 14 October 2017 - 07:50 AM.

[Navid A1]

I guess 6-UAC5 annihilator was OP.

We asked for viable C-SPLs for months. PGI changes other lasers in order to resist even more when it comes to C-SPL viability and upfront damage



PGI, I know its like talking to a wall... but please. Stop balancing based off spreadsheets

Edited by Navid A1, 14 October 2017 - 05:14 AM.

[SATAN 666]

It was about time that the clan lasers get fixed.But why nerfing the poor grasshopper?You buy a mech because of its quirks, and then you make the quirks disappear.There is no consistency in this game.
The chassis quirks should stay the same.If this is going to continue like that I will stop investing my time in this game.

[Jay Leon Hart]

So, the question now is...

Do I refund my Osiris & Nightstar Collector's + Reinforcements and just get the Enforcer or Crab Hero to qualify for the (L) Victor?

Or, do I keep the faith PGI will fix the Nightstar (and to a lesser extent, the Osiris), even though they *didn't* fix the Uziel?

It's a shame, that 1 out of the 3 IS 'mechs I was interested in since the Archer released came out bad-to-mediocre. Now it looks like the other 2/3 will come out the same...

On the plus side, Clans get 2 solid 'mechs.

[Appogee]

Jay Leon Hart, on 14 October 2017 - 05:39 AM, said:

Or, do I keep the faith PGI ...

I don't think anyone needs to advise you on the answer to any question that starts with those words.

Edited by Appogee, 14 October 2017 - 05:59 AM.

[ZortPointNarf]

I am happy for the most part with these, but the logic in having mediums with longer cooldowns than large lasers confounds me.I know they were over performing, so I was expecting a nerf. That being said I was expecting a nerf that kept the scale for heat/range weapon type as has been done rather well lately.

Edited by ZortPointNarf, 14 October 2017 - 05:58 AM.

[VXJaeger]

SATAN 666, on 14 October 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

There is no consistency in this game.

It's been same since beginning. No use learning to master some weapon or mech to its extreme, because PGI will **** it up as soon as you have gotten comfortable with it.
Only rule is, that never sell any mechs because occasionally they will again popup as must-have Godlikes.

[Tordin]

Ok. Trying to wrap my head around all this..

Missile changes?
For the most part, not good at all. Increased spread due to artemis nerf, just hurt them even more. At least increase the missile spread nodes to - 10% each or something.
Lock nerfs, well forcing the LRM only boats to participate in that way is neat, even I as a partly lurm lover agree with this.
But for for the streaks and ATMS??
Streaks are spreading their dmg alredy at random so this hampers them even more, while the ATM alredy have a small window in their dmg range to be max useful. Hurts them too but surely defines they role as in-the-face at medium range even more I guess.

Ballistic changes? Great overall. But really? Increase the heat? Ballistics are supposed to be the least heat intensive of the three weapon types! Not much to point out really.

Enegry changes?
Cooldown nerfs arent the worst. But again small laser got hurt again. And the light mech weight class have most use for them AND need to put alot of dmg out in trade for fragility. Bigger mechs usually go for medium class lasers and above unless they can boat smalls enmasse.
Maybe Im overreacting. At least no duration nerfs for Heavy lasers at least or any other laser. Now that would seriously damage the use of lasers. Its ok with blanket nerfs but it hurts the little ones, no matter if its cooldown, duration.
Overall laser weapons will force users of them to be more "cool" about it and choose the opportunity of their use more carefully.

FupDup, on 13 October 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

Here are some strange comparisons between lasers that are a result of this patch.

The IS MPL has a slightly slower cooldown than the Clan LPL.

The Clan ERSL takes considerably longer to cooldown than the Clan ERLL.

All IS medium-class lasers cooldown slower than the IS LPL and LL.

The IS MPL has only a tiny cooldown advantage over the IS ERLL.

The IS ML and ERML both cooldown slower than the ERLL.


Ultimately this broad change feels like it relied way too much on spreadsheet theoretical performance rather than actual gameplay outcomes. Specifically, there's this nifty mechanic called hardpoints to prevent people from just boating medium or small type lasers up the wazoo. A Large Laser takes up the same amount of hardpoints as a Small Laser. Hardpoints are especially important on the IS side since they have far fewer mechs that come with oodles of them.

There's also the extremely important range attribute. Guns with shorter range are supposed to be much more DPS-efficient for their weight as a direct trade-off for having less range. Correspondingly, longer range guns are supposed to pay a premium for that critical advantage. With tonnage being equal, the small/medium laser mech should crush the large laser mech in close combat (assuming both of them start at 100% health). Even a small to moderate tonnage disparity should still allow the small/medium laser mech to either slightly surpass or at least match the DPS of the long-range sniper.

Put it that way... I got a serious headache again.... The logic... outta the window!

Mech quirk changes overall? Fantastic! Only thing... Hope those mobility changes for the Anni would be worth its loss in durability, however it didnt lose too much.
Assault mechs of the 100 ton range might be great again!!
Also nice to see the Raven got more role defined quirkies!

Fixes? Great overall!

Edited by Tordin, 14 October 2017 - 06:04 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Tordin, on 14 October 2017 - 05:59 AM, said:

Missile changes?
For the most part, not good at all. Increased spread due to artemis nerf, just hurt them even more. At least increase the missile spread nodes to - 10% each or something.
Lock nerfs, well forcing the LRM only boats to participate in that way is neat, even I as a partly lurm lover agree with this.
But for for the streaks and ATMS??
Streaks are spreading their dmg alredy at random so this hampers them even more, while the ATM alredy have a small window in their dmg range to be max useful. Hurts them too but surely defines they role as in-the-face at medium range even more I guess.

Lock nerfs for LRMs are bad, the more you're forced to stare exactly at the target all the time, the less you are able to have any situational awareness. Forced tunnel vision for every LRM boat got forced even more
ATMs were very interesting because of that ability to direct them upward or sideways with some skill. Very rewarding weapon, Very good under certain limited conditions, mediocre to useless in other. Now probably will end up too situational to bother with them.

Finally, no nerfs to missiles were needed, because no missiles were overperforming. MRMs are underperforming, but that's not a reson to nerf everything else.

[ShooterMcGavin80]

The Mysterious Fox, on 13 October 2017 - 10:30 PM, said:

mmm looks like an increase TTK and a buff to long range engagements and a blanket nerf to medium and close range brawling so dont complain when ever more people decide to play turret behind the rocks across the map.

It is hard to say precisely how badly lasers are going to be hurt by this. I know the laser vomit builds I run already can be easily overwhelmed by fast moving brawlers that charge in an organized fashion. Longer cooldown will make laser vomit even more vulnerable to that option.

I know my favorite arctic cheetah build right now (after the SPL nerfing) is 3xERML and 3xLMG. The relatively short cooldown on the ERML's makes it effective. Now it looks like it is going to lose its ability to be an effective harasser. And my favorite effective BJ-1X build (8xML) just lost a huge amount of DPS. Neither of those builds are what I would call 'OP', but they were immensely fun to play.

So I think aggressive SRM/MRM/LBX/AC/MG/snub PPC brawlers are going to be coming out ahead in this. All categories of large lasers look mostly unaffected, so those are still viable up to their ghost heat limit.


In my opinion, mechs that needed nerfing were:

Assassin (SRM4 assassin needs to be taken down a peg)
Urbanmech (let's all just agree that the tankiness is absurd)

That is all.

Edited by ShooterMcGavin80, 14 October 2017 - 06:27 AM.

[Nightmare1]

While it's nice to see 100-tonners get a buff, the Medium Laser, ER Medium Laser, and Clan ER Medium Laser nerfs are too heavy handed. PGI is thinking of Heavy Mechs boating these weapons and forgetting that many Lights and Mediums rely on these tonnage-inexpensive weapons to be able to compete given the small amounts of tonnage available to them. These nerfs will hurt Lights and Mediums badly, especially the ones that have no choice but to boat energy weapons, such as the Crabs, Hunchback 4P, Wolfhounds, etc.

If PGI is going to insist on keeping this overly heavy blanket nerf, then it should do another quirk pass on energy boat Lights and Mediums to buff their RoF.

Also, what happened PGI??? You were doing so well at incrementally balancing the game, and now you've reverted back to blanket nerfs??? Did someone forget to lock the nerf PC and accidentally let Paul log in again???

[farout]

Edited by farout, 14 October 2017 - 06:28 AM.

[Nightmare1]

ShooterMcGavin80, on 14 October 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

It is hard to say precisely how badly lasers are going to be hurt by this. I know the laser vomit builds I run already can be easily overwhelmed by fast moving brawlers that charge in an organized fashion. Longer cooldown will make laser vomit even more vulnerable to that option.

I know my favorite arctic cheetah build right now (after the SPL nerfing) is 3xERML and 3xLMG. The relatively short cooldown on the ERML's makes it effective. Now it looks like it is going to lose its ability to be an effective harasser. And my favorite effective BJ-1X build (8xML) just lost a huge amount of DPS. Neither of those builds are what I would call 'OP', but they were immensely fun to play.

So I think aggressive SRM/MRM/LBX/AC/MG/snub PPC brawlers are going to be coming out ahead in this. All categories of large lasers look mostly unaffected.


In my opinion, mechs that needed nerfing were:

Assassin (SRM4 assassin needs to be taken down a peg)
Urbanmech (let's all just agree that the tankiness is absurd)

That is all.

Agreed!

What about the HBK-4G? It relies on 3 MLs to back up the AC/20 and is supposed to be a brawler. How can it fight effectively now if the MLs it depends on have been nerfed so drastically?

Or the Enforcer class of Mechs? Like the HBK, it typically relies on MLs to back up one larger weapon system.

I think this blanket set of nerfs is a knee-jerk reaction on PGI's part to Heavy Mechs loading too many of them. For example, I have a Warhammer with 7 MLs and 2 LPLs. That's kind of OP, in my opinion, but could be handled with a chassis variant specific quirk pass rather than this nerf that will further kill off Light and Medium Mechs.

[Harlock69]

InnerSphereNews, on 13 October 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

along with a potential fix for the issue that prevented the Event Browser from populating for certain players. If you continue to encounter this issue after applying the patch, please contact Support services at technical@mwomercs.com.

I sooooo hope this time it works!!!!!

[GamerPro4000]

Excuse my ignorance because I am still pretty new to the game and this isn't the first time pgi nerfed/buffed something in the game for me, but where is pgi getting its sources to justify these changes? Did they use sample sizes from faction warfare and not from the world championship this year because these nerfs don't make much sense to me. In DOTA2, game mechanics are changesd based on tournaments because top players (every other player strives to be like them to make the game more competitive) are the gold standard and know how to exploit weak game mechanics. Allot of times dota 2 changes to the game mechanics made sense because of this reason. I hope pgi is basing these changes on the world championship from it's most skilled players and sets a bar everyone can understand and not something like this in the future with lack of direction. I feel they are failing to see the whole picture of the game with these changes.

Edited by GamerPro4000, 14 October 2017 - 07:05 AM.

[The Mysterious Fox]

GamerPro4000, on 14 October 2017 - 07:01 AM, said:

Excuse my ignorance because I am still pretty new to the game and this isn't the first time pgi nerfed/buffed something in the game for me, but where is pgi getting its sources to justify these changes? Did they use sample sizes from faction warfare and not from the world championship, because these nerfs don't make much sense to me. In DOTA2, game mechanics are changes based on tournaments because top players (every other player strives to be like them to make the game more competitive) are the gold standard and they know how to exploit weak game mechanics. Allot of times dota 2 changes to the game mechanics made more sense because of this reason. I hope pgi is basing these changes on the world championship from it's most skilled players and sets a bar everyone can understand and not something like this in the future with lack of direction. I feel they are failing to see the whole picture with these changes.

spreadsheets