78 replies to this topic

[Jun Watarase]

IS pug teams would be more successful if they stopped bringing trial mechs with LRMs to the completely wrong maps.



Matches like these have nothing to do with clans being OP or 12 mans vs pugs. The game is easily won or lost in the mechlab before you even drop.

[Rakshasa]

There seems to be many complicating factors screwing up the IS in FW, not the least of which is PGI's requirement to adhere to lore over Clantech being just flat-out superior in every significant way to its IS equivalents. Maybe one way to even things up a little bit until (or if) balance can be evened up is to have 3 IS Lances vs. 2 Clan Stars for FW matches - 12 vs. 10. It's not a huge difference, but a 2-mech advantage would still be an advantage. Plus, Clan players would then have to prove how 'elite' they really are

[Tiewolf]

SeventhSL, on 17 October 2017 - 01:42 AM, said:

That is basically spot on. While IS and Clan loyalists accuse PGI of favouring the other the key is in the name. It is mwoMERCS.com. It is not mwoCLAN.com or mwoIS.com. Not even just mwo.com. Big Merc units stacking one side have been the bane of CW since inception and the reason it is a relatively dead game mode.

They could instigate a decent contract mini game for Mercs that would be fun for them and provide opportunity to back stab each other for CB/MC. The advantage being that their distribution could be controlled via the contracts. Instead they can tag planets and still get big payoffs for contracting with Clan dispite the state of the faction map. The FW system and MERCs are just broken.

Again and again this merc unit myth. If you only describe what you can see your observations are true but you just ignore the reasons for the mercs behavior.

Tiewolf, on 16 October 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

If this is so spot on, then plz tell me why wins and units are not spread equal between IS & Clan cause that would happen if every side would be equal. The units would choose their side randomly but obviously they do not!
So there is another factor that attracts the units in the first place. Comp teams favor clantech when they can choose freely between IS&Clan, Clans wins every competition and hell i just have to look at my own mech statistics to see the difference between my clan&IS mechs.
But yeah its just the units, lack of IS playerskill, the weather in the inner sphere...just go on and fool yourself that there is no gigantic imbalance elephant standing in the room.

[Tiewolf]

Jun Watarase, on 17 October 2017 - 02:02 AM, said:

IS pug teams would be more successful if they stopped bringing trial mechs with LRMs to the completely wrong maps.



Matches like these have nothing to do with clans being OP or 12 mans vs pugs. The game is easily won or lost in the mechlab before you even drop.

Maybe pugs can`t screw up clan loadouts so hard in the firstplace cause so many clan loadouts are viable? On IS side only very few IS mech variants and only with one very specific loadout are.
But i guess when i look at all your other posts, they indicate that you don`t want to take off your clan glasses for once and listen to players that enjoy both sides and just want not a perfect but just a ok gamebalance. MWO is far away from balance cause Clantech is better, the clan mechs/hardpoints are better, all maps favour the clan advantages...but yeah in Jun`s world it must be the IS pugs or the magical IS curse that makes everything on IS side worse.
But we agree on one point to banish trailmechs from FW.

Edited by Tiewolf, 17 October 2017 - 02:39 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

I dont think there is any saving CW.

On the one hand, PGI delivered a substandard product yet a playable product.

On the other hand, the community thought they wanted CW but turned out nobody could figure it out.

[Tiewolf]

Kin3ticX, on 17 October 2017 - 02:49 AM, said:

I dont think there is any saving CW.

On the one hand, PGI delivered a substandard product yet a playable product.

On the other hand, the community thought they wanted CW but turned out nobody could figure it out.

I still have hope but i guess hope is just the denial of reality in pgi`s case and you are right

Edited by Tiewolf, 17 October 2017 - 03:03 AM.

[adamts01]

You play FW? lol

[Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie]

(in advance and to see where I'm coming from. I like fw and I do it a lot. outside of events. on both sides; so try to get my point of view as kinda impartial)

you guys should simply open another (clan) account and you see where your percieved imbalance is coming from for the most part;



on pug vs pug:

when I drop into solo-fw on clanside during an event, there's a lot of rambos out there, doing their own thing, not listening to the rest, gambling victory away everytime for everybody.
but there's also most of the time a few people who hold things together (or try to), who use comms, who work together. teamplayers.


when I drop into solo-fw on IS during an event, there's pretty much the same thing going on - except for those teamplayers. I don't know why, but they are rare on IS-side. maybe some/most don't care anymore, maybe it's the weather - I don't know.

thing is: with that "I'm rambo and eff my team" attitude you just can't win against half-decent teamplay.


(too many?) organised mercs on clanside:

well, totally blaming the unbalanced merc-system here; you can't blame a unit for switching to a 50% bonus and staying there (I'm no merc, but I would too, ofc) - more money -and- having the less troublesome pugs? yes please.

--> go and ask pgi to improve the situation. simply sth like giving mercs for is those 50% and only handing out 10-20% on clanside. or just offering a few slots to be a merc on clanside at all.
(the lore-clanner in me is offended by having mercs in the first time; there simply should not be clanmercs. it's a thing that does not exist in lore).


big, organised groups vs pugs

when I drop on clanside, there's -easily- 6-8 bigger units I can drop with without looking into things, who are good guys you can have a fun time with - and on top of that we win a lot of games.

whenever I drop on IS-side (during events), open up comstar, frr, and all the other ts-servers... it's like a wasteland. maybe there's 1-2 bigger groups going on and that's it.

----> organise yourselves, guys!



-----
again, not judging here - just stating things I see.

think there really needs to be some gate, so -fresh- people who drop in trials don't get into fw-games; they -will- have no fun in those, and drag down their team. even their opponents will feel bad about it. so just ... no.
leave them out of fw, and fw will improve.
and ffs make an "official" tutorial on what's going on in fw; I see so many people shooting gates-not-gens, shooting the cannon etc.. pgi, explain your game better.

also (and that's on a personal note) - in my humble but honest opinion, comms should be mandatory in fw.
yeah, a group of pugs can beat the next one, but not a team. and a group of "good shot"pugs might even threaten a team a bit.
but in all honesty teamplay is what makes and brakes a good fw-drop.
atm, I see too little teamplay on clan-pugs - and next to none on is-pugs.

it's not the tech, it's not the mechs - it's teams vs rambos. teamwins are easy on both sides going against pugs, no matter if your clan or IS.

learn to play as part of a team and have fun - or stay deaf&mute and wait for the solaris mode that's coming up.

Edited by Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, 17 October 2017 - 03:24 AM.

[MechWarrior5152251]

LOL? No one is forcing anyone to play the game. No one is forcing you to play FW. Most players stay in quick play.

[MechWarrior5152251]

I will be enjoying my free MLX mech.....

[TWIAFU]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2017 - 05:21 PM, said:

If enough IS players give up on FP (or just move the Clan side) and make it a ghostdrop for Clan players every time, then perhaps it will send a message to PGI. Alas, that's not gonna happen. People want event prizes.

You said it yourself Bandito after moving back to Clans from IS, Clans are easy mode in comparison.

People want easy mode and Clans provide it. People want event crap and Clans provide that with ease.

To play MWO in easy mode and farm easy rewards, go Clan.

[Steve Pryde]

I dont think any of the tournament player cares about in what mech he drops.

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

Maybe pugs can`t screw up clan loadouts so hard in the firstplace cause so many clan loadouts are viable?

Basic mech design principles remain the same regardless of whether it is a IS or clan mech. Dont put massive oversized engines on mechs. LBXs are bad. Laser vomit > most loadouts. LRMs on brawl maps = bad. Range synergy is important. Etc.

Its actually easier to screw up with clan mechs because if you pick the wrong one, nothing you do will rescue it.

[Mr Snrub]

Jun Watarase, on 17 October 2017 - 03:34 AM, said:

Basic mech design principles remain the same regardless of whether it is a IS or clan mech. Dont put massive oversized engines on mechs. LBXs are bad. Laser vomit > most loadouts. LRMs on brawl maps = bad. Range synergy is important. Etc.

Its actually easier to screw up with clan mechs because if you pick the wrong one, nothing you do will rescue it.

Nah, I think it's actually a good point. How many casual players know how to fiddle around with Ferro, Endo or even Double heatsinks? I certainly didn't at the start.

How many know the difference between XL, LFE or standard engine?

Less options for (most) clan mechs means less opportunities to eff it up.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

I think part of the imbalance in FW events is the problem of the self fullfilling prophecy. In recent history when FW events came up, the clans always won by a landslide. Now if an FW event is coming up, you already know a lot of units will select clan contracts before to get the rewards.

I want to reinforce a point that has been made before here: The IS mostly loses FW in the mechlab.

The only solution I see here is coaching the players into taking better builds. Balance the dropdeck on BattleValue (BV) and not on tonnage and that would go a long way.

BattleValue in its traditional form accounts for armor points, mobility ( through engine size), heat efficiency and so on. The only real tweaking that needs to be done to make it viable for MWO is adjusting weapon values and taking hardpoint placement into the equation. That is a one-time work per chassis. (Battlemaster Torso mounts on top of the shoulders should have slightly higher BV then Awesome Torso mounts on the hip for example.)

That way a horribly built mech will have a horrible Battlevalue and it will be incentive for the player to spend more time in the mechlab to use the available BV for the dropdeck. Abuse of the BV system can be easily patched by changing specific BV values without impacting the gameplay on the map in any unforseen way.

The gameplay on the maps is not far off. A good IS team can give a good clan team a run for its money when they play to their strengths and vice versa.

IMHO its only the mechlab and pug vs group thematic that is imbalanced...its not really the mechs being the problem any more.

[Kin3ticX]

Clans are better. Most of the stuff the IS got is crap. Its hard to get that alpha up to compete with clans. Yeah its nice to have Lite fusion and ER Med, but the ER med is only 5 damage and the Lite Fusion is still not as good even if its removable. Omnitech is just better. The fixed engines dont matter, there are so many clan mechs now that plenty of them are in the goldy lox zone newayz and the ones with bad engines get mothballed.

[El Bandito]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 17 October 2017 - 03:45 AM, said:

IMHO its only the mechlab and pug vs group thematic that is imbalanced...its not really the mechs being the problem any more.

Nope. Mech/tech imbalance also affects FP balance.

[Tiewolf]

Teenage Mutant Ninja Urbie, on 17 October 2017 - 03:17 AM, said:

it's not the tech, it's not the mechs - it's teams vs rambos. teamwins are easy on both sides going against pugs, no matter if your clan or IS.

learn to play as part of a team and have fun - or stay deaf&mute and wait for the solaris mode that's coming up.

Funny i have the same experience concerning the organization of clan pugs. On IS side most of the time nobody even tries to coordinate the teamplay. But i guess thats just a phenomena caused by the clan IS selection process over the years. The commanders left the IS side and gone clan or quit playing FW cause after a while they realized it was pointless with the imbalance. So only new player or a few tryhard IS lover are left. Thats why you can`t find only few ppl that plays IS outside of cookie event times.

Maybe on clan side you get away with ramboing cause you have the reach to do so and survive without getting serious focused return fire? My impression is, that longer reach favours unexperienced pug playstyle and that is why the rambos and pugs are not so obvious bad on clan side. On IS side in my exerience the consequences are much faster and severe for inappropriate playstyles, loadout etc. and no extra durability can save you from that.

Edited by Tiewolf, 17 October 2017 - 04:12 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

El Bandito, on 17 October 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

Nope. Mech/tech imbalance also affects FP balance.

It does, but some matches are a loss regardless of who is clan or IS if one side is stacked. In closer games you might be able to pin it on the tech. Clan advantage scrapes up the marginal games.

[El Bandito]

Kin3ticX, on 17 October 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

It does, but some matches are a loss regardless of who is clan or IS if one side is stacked. In closer games you might be able to pin it on the tech. Clan advantage scrapes up the marginal games.

On that, we agree.