113 replies to this topic

[Kin3ticX]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 October 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

The Executioner had a 10degree torso yaw range quirk prior to the de-sync, and never made it back in. So we are left with the torso yaw range of the Marauder-IIC and tbe Mauler. I don't understand why nobody sees a problem with this. The mech needs to rely on repeated application of firepower to justify being an assault, but that 70 degree yaw range really gets in the way.

To the OP, you can get 4 torso hardpoints now. Im running 2 HLL and 6ERML on mine and it does okay... would really like to see it with more torso yaw though!!

Its the same reason I don't drive my Battlemaster-1G(P). The 60 twist is annoying AF, prohibitive even.

[Bombast]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 October 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

But I thought PGI balances based on usage. If no one uses Executioners, shouldn't they be buffed? I don't understand, none of it makes sense!!!!

Once every few weeks I take one out and do 800-1000 damage, is that just completely decimating the averages???

Well, there's the problem. PGI uses average performance to nerf/buff mechs. So if you're the only one using a mech, and you do that well in it, well, keep your eye on the patch notes, buddy. You may have just nerfed a chassis.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bombast, on 25 October 2017 - 09:27 AM, said:

Well, there's the problem. PGI uses average performance to nerf/buff mechs. So if you're the only one using a mech, and you do that well in it, well, keep your eye on the patch notes, buddy. You may have just nerfed a chassis.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Khobai]

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But I thought PGI balances based on usage. If no one uses Executioners, shouldn't they be buffed? I don't understand, none of it makes sense!!!!

The Executioner itself is fine. The chassis isnt the problem.

The problem is when CSPL got nerfed, the Executioner no longer had a decent energy weapon to spam. The only real way to fix the executioner would be to give it back a decent energy spam weapon. Because it doesnt have the tonnage to really use ballistics.

Like the recent medium laser nerf, yes medium lasers were probably too good compared to large lasers, but medium lasers NEEDED to be that good in order for light mechs to compete. Because light mechs cant really use large lasers they dont have the tonnage for it.

By balancing medium lasers better with large lasers, they actually hurt the viability of light mechs and some mediums. Weapon balance was improved but weight class balance was made worse. PGI didnt see the bigger picture when balancing.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 09:46 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

The Executioner itself is fine.

The problem is when CSPL got nerfed, the Executioner no longer had a decent energy weapon to spam.

The Executioner wasn't fine even with cSPLs because the Gargoyle was better for it (81kph all the time is better for rushing with short range than 81kph some of the time). On maps that require JJs to be useful, you just didn't try and brawl because the Executioner just wasn't as good.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 09:44 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

The problem is when CSPL got nerfed, the Executioner no longer had a decent energy weapon to spam.

That was never its strong suit.

LPL ERML spam kept it tolerable back when it had agility quirks. Got nerfed with the ER MLrange nerf, then that got buffed again, but it needs help in the agility department, and frankly, its so big, it could use some more durability as well, and not just with omni-pods that have **** hardpoints.

[Khobai]

The Executioner was still fine.

The Gargoyle might have been a little better but the Executioner was hardly unviable by comparison.

You could easily go toe to toe with Gargoyles and kick their asses

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LPL ERML

I used LPL CSPL

the ERML just werent heat efficient enough to spam them

nothing beat 6 damage for 3 heat. oldschool CSPL was king for brawling.

and yes brawling was absolutely its strong suit. it was still fast enough to get close and with coolant you could rip through 2-3 mechs before you overheated.

Gargoyle could do the same thing better, but the Executioner wasnt that much worse at it. And the jumpjets were a welcome addition on maps like canyon.

But both the Gargoyle and Executioner were no longer worth using when CSPL got nerfed. Thats the point. Which you completely missed.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 10:06 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

The Executioner was still fine.

The Gargoyle might have been a little better but the Executioner was hardly unviable by comparison.

You could easily go toe to toe with Gargoyles and kick their asses



I used LPL CSPL

the ERML just werent heat efficient enough to spam them

nothing beat 6 damage for 3 heat. oldschool CSPL was king for brawling.

Its not for brawling its for mid range poking. I used to run 2 cLPL 4 cERML, now I am running 2 HLL and 6 cERML.

Not really interested in brawling with limited torso twist range and a massive mech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

The Executioner was still fine.

The Gargoyle might have been a little better but the Executioner was hardly unviable by comparison.

You could easily go toe to toe with Gargoyles and kick their asses

I don't think you understand, it has nothing to do with going toe to toe, it has to do with a brawling assault being able to get to the fight in time before being obliterated, something the Executioner could not do as well as the Gargoyle thus why the Executioner was always second fiddle to mechs like the Splatclops and Gargoyle.

That said, once the brawl starts, that limited twist angle as Gas mentions is extremely problematic.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 10:02 AM.

[Spheroid]

@Khobai: Removing stealth, (even the lame weak stealth we now have) from ECM would see the extinction as used equipment. What else would you have it do justify its 1.5 tons two slot requirement?

The abilities other than stealth would need to be substantial to justify the investment.

[Khobai]

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I don't think you understand, it has nothing to do with going toe to toe, it has to do with a brawling assault being able to get to the fight in time before being obliterated, something the Executioner could not do as well as the Gargoyle thus why the Executioner was always second fiddle to mechs like the Splatclops and Gargoyle.

just because you couldnt do it

doesnt mean I couldnt do it

because I had no problem getting my executioner into brawling range.

stop projecting your own failings onto others.

yes the gargoyle was better at it, I said that already, but it doesnt mean the executioner was incapable of doing it. it just required a little more finesse.

hell I dont even have problems getting atlases into brawling range most of the time. and theyre even slower yet. are atlases the best assault brawlers? no. But I still play them and I do pretty good with them because I know how to get them into brawling range with most of my armor intact.

player skill matters far more than how good a mech is most of the time.

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@Khobai: Removing stealth, (even the lame weak stealth we now have) from ECM would see the extinction as used equipment. What else would you have it do justify its 1.5 tons two slot requirement?

I would remove stealth from ECM

then instead of stealth give ECM a new mode called ghost mode that creates fake radar contacts around your mech

I would also restore ECM's old ability to cut enemy mechs off from sharing sensor info with their team

those new abilties could be unlocked through the skill tree and just replace the current ECM stealth nodes

that turns ECM into more of an electronic warfare package and make it do things its supposed to do rather than things its not.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

just because you couldnt do it

doesnt mean I couldnt do it

because I had no problem getting my executioner into brawling range

stop projecting your own failings onto others.

I'll remember this next time you try to tell me the Whale is the worst assault in the game.

That said, it has nothing to do with my failings, and everything to do with the failing of the Executioner when you are fighting enemies who actually know what they are doing and not the spuds you fight in solo queue. Gargoyle > Executioner for brawl teams. It has a faster speed (on average), the same firepower, smaller profile, and better agility that all combine to overwhelm the single real advantage the Executioner has (well two including more base health), and that is JJs.

Just because you can do it in solo queue or group queue doesn't mean it is appropriately balanced.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 10:23 AM.

[Khobai]

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I'll remember this next time you try to tell me the Whale is the worst assault in the game.

its the worst clan assault

I wouldnt say its the worst in the game

but the thing about clan mechs, even the worst clan assault, is still pretty deadly compared to IS mechs

theres internal balance and external balance. as far as internal balance goes, the direwolf is not as good as other clan assaults like the madcat II or kodiak, etc... as far as external balance goes, the direwolf is still better than most IS assaults.

so I do think the direwolf needs a buff. But I also think pretty much all IS mechs need a buff too. I would still like to see all ISDHS turned into truedubs for example so they can compete with CDHS better. Since ISDHS being so crappy is one of the biggest imbalances.

but that really has nothing to do with MASC. So were way off topic now.

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Gargoyle > Executioner for brawl teams.

Ive played crappy Atlases on brawl teams and done better than people in Gargoyles.

Because I realize there are other factors involved that contribute to success in a mech. Player skill, good positioning, the actual map itself, knowing exactly when to commit to a fight, etc... always bringing the best mech is not the most important thing there is.

Honestly I dont know how you manage now that metamechs.com is no longer updated. Because that seems to be all youre fixated on: meta mechs. Personally I get satisfaction in using garbage mechs and doing better than people in top tier meta mechs. Then laughing at those people when they cant handle that im right.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 10:40 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

its the worst clan assault

I wouldnt say its the worst in the game

To use your own words against you.

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

just because you couldnt do it

doesnt mean I couldnt do it

See the problem with that sort of argument, and why it's a stupid argument. If you can't articulate why that is the case then what are you honestly bringing to the discussion? You sound just like those people who say X mech doesn't need to be buffed because X they had a single1000 damage game in it or they "do fine" in that mech. That's not the point.

The Whale is indeed better than the Kodiak (smaller torso profile, no Gauss in sides, similar exposure to clear wide arms, etc) just like it's better than the Executioner.

The Executioner doesn't have the speed or armor to pull off what the Gargoyle does, so either it needs better armor to do brawling better or it should get quirks to better use it at mid range.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 10:38 AM.

[Khobai]

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The Whale is indeed better than the Kodiak (smaller torso profile, no Gauss in sides, similar exposure to clear wide arms, etc) just like it's better than the Executioner.

I disagree. Its way too slow compared to the Kodiak.

And the Kodiak wants its gauss in the sides because theyre high mounted hardpoints.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Because I realize there are other factors involved that contribute to success in a mech. Player skill, good positioning, the actual map itself, knowing exactly when to commit to a fight, etc... always bringing the best mech is not the most important thing there is.

I don't think you understand the point of balance discussions.

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 10:24 AM, said:

Honestly I dont know how you manage now that metamechs.com is no longer updated. Because that seems to be all youre fixated on: meta mechs. Personally I get satisfaction in using garbage mechs and doing better than people in top tier meta mechs. Then laughing at those people when they cant handle that im right.

Dude, what are you talking about, do you honestly think that comp players use metamechs? Hell no, most of them argue WITH Gman about his builds (me being one of them, I like to remind Gman his builds are bad).

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

I disagree. Its way too slow compared to the Kodiak.

And the Kodiak wants its gauss in the sides because theyre high mounted hardpoints.

Slow isn't a problem as the meta Deathstrike proves given that it is only 5.4kph faster. The high mounts also don't matter if you are exposing more than that (which you will be because otherwise it is a waste of an assault to just fire 2 Gauss).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 10:45 AM.

[Khobai]

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Dude, what are you talking about, do you honestly think that comp players use metamechs? Hell no, most of them argue WITH Gman about his builds (me being one of them, I like to remind Gman his builds are bad).

Umm thats exactly the point I was making.

That peoples opinion of whats good varies wildly.

Just like your opinion of whats good differs from mine.

In my experience it matters less what mechs people bring, and matters more how they use them. As long as the mech is somewhat viable and isnt a complete troll build.

If I bring an Executioner instead of a Gargoyle, and I do better in an Executioner than other people do in Gargoyles, can you really still say the Gargoyle is better? The Executioner does have advantages over the Gargoyle, like jumpjets, so the Gargoyle isnt always strictly better if those advantages are leveraged.

I mean the Direwhale is the same thing. Some people do really good in them. Whereas I do much better in faster assaults like the Madcat II/Kodiak and the Direwhale underperforms IMO. I think it needs a buff. I could be wrong, it wouldnt be the first time, but I havent seen much evidence that the Direwhale doesnt need a buff. If theyre so good why arnt they used more? It seems like its because theyre way too slow to me

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 25 October 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

Umm thats exactly the point I was making.

That peoples opinion of whats good varies wildly.

Just like your opinion of whats good differs from mine.

Builds are a bit different from what mechs are the best. For example during the dominance of the KDK-3 you might not see people build the KDK-3 the same but all agreed it was the best assault. There is a difference there. That said not everyone agrees about what mechs are the best all the time (everyone has pet mechs, even comp players), but if you can't objectively articulate why you think it is better then you simply aren't adding to the conversation.

The Exeuctioner provides no benefit over the Gargoyle save having JJs and that still doesn't allow for it to have a niche usage within the meta, that is problematic.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 October 2017 - 10:51 AM.

[Spheroid]

Objective truth supported by math is a thing. One just needs to identify the agreed upon performance metrics and then present the accumulated data.

[Khobai]

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The Exeuctioner provides no benefit over the Gargoyle save having JJs and that still doesn't allow for it to have a niche usage within the meta, that is problematic.

Ive already said the Gargoyle is probably better. Thats not really in debate. But you dont always need to pilot the best mech. IMO it detracts from the game if you limit yourself to using only the best of whats available. But that doesnt mean you cant still do well in the Executioner, or potentially better than someone in a Gargoyle. Success is measured by other factors than what mech you bring. I dont think its quite as clear cut as you make it out to be.

If bringing the best mech is all that mattered we might as well all just play deathstrikes all the time. Because how !@#$ing fun would that be. I play whatever mech I want. And I do well in mechs people constantly tell me are bad.

I think its a stupid argument trying to tell people what mechs they should play.

Edited by Khobai, 25 October 2017 - 11:11 AM.