170 replies to this topic

[Bakaneko]

Make Direstar great again...

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

Youve entirely missed the point.

The point is one or two shot mechs would be an epidemic problem without ghost heat. It wouldnt just be limited to select assaults. every clan mech could do it.

ghost heat is the hello kitty bandaid that prevents the horribly defective heat system from being pervasively abused.



yeah because ghost heat currently limits laser vomit. ghost heat is what makes "dealing with it" possible.

without ghost heat, no amount of torso twisting, and no god in heaven, is going to save you from dying.

again the whole context of this discussion is ghost heat not existing...

I never advocated removing ghost heat ITT. I just said I would rather they not change anything, and you said "not changing anything is why people are leaving".

People are leaving because they have gotten burnt out. Its pretty natural.. I have taken extended breaks too, **** happens. Especially when the game doesn't have an incredible amount of content to get through.

[Asym]

Shifty McSwift, on 26 October 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

It's actually a good point though.. The idea of TTK and targeting components etc is one of the fun aspects of the game to a lot of people, it is why I enjoy brawling in MWO as I find sniping inefficient in action, even though it can be effective overall in terms of an MWO game, I do my sniping in different games where it has that immediate effect, but that is just me.

You can have killer guns and no TTK, or you can have nerfed guns, and extend combat times. You can't really have both right?

Yes sir, the point I have been trying to make since May's skill tree and the balancing passes since....
Imagine Solaris when you power up in a heavy and immediately twin Gauss and an PPC hits you in the head and it's game over... Balance isn't for fairness; balance is for TTK (game play extension.). Greater TTK is greater profitability... The medium laser nerf is because medium lasers are too efficient and when boated, are vastly too powerful and reduce TTK..... Neuter them and it will take a bit longer to kill and that might not be an outright, game over kill....

Edited by Asym, 26 October 2017 - 09:44 AM.

[davoodoo]

Kiiyor, on 25 October 2017 - 09:55 PM, said:

Good god

HELL NO.

What sucks the fun out of the game is any mech lighter than a Direwolf being one shot, or having every scrap of armour removed in one volley.

This would make pretty much every mech class but assaults obsolete - pretty much as they were in MW3 and 4.

I look at it the other way, when mech heavier than 75tons cant put enough energy firepower without hitting ghost heat...

Direwhale as example should be perfectly able to alpha 6 lpls instead being forced into 6 mediums 2 lpls all the way up from 65 ton ebj.

Edited by davoodoo, 26 October 2017 - 10:03 AM.

[J0anna]

I don't like the ghost heat mechanic at all and would love to see it gone, but there are simply too many whiners who think this game needs even longer fights.

The UAC jam chance really should change. This foolishly high jam chance makes boating UAC's the only choice and has wiped out single UAC builds. If PGI had spent time to think about it, they could have programmed jam chance to increase the more you add. i.e. one uac 10 - 5%, two - 7%, three - 10%, four - 14%. The numbers could easily change, but the fact remains that single UAC's are effectively dead now.

[Khobai]

Quote

No,it won't. Nothing will be fixed unless PGI starts actually implementing heat penalties instead of halfassing it with baindaids

heat penalties dont fix anything though

they just force people to use gauss

people using gauss will suffer no penalties. everyone not using gauss will suffer penalties.

Quote

The UAC jam chance really should change.

I advocated a while ago to just get rid of jamming entirely

instead make UACs do less damage per shot than ACs but make them fire faster (more dps)


So like an AC5 would do 5 damage per shot every 1.66 seconds with a 720m range

while a UAC5 would do 3 damage per shot every 0.83 seconds with a 600m range

so UACs would be worse for sniping but better for brawling than ACs

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 10:28 AM.

[davoodoo]

I wonder what more heat penatlies can we put.

Not only we got most restrictive heat management i can remember in mechwarrior games because we dont even have trudubs and they werent adjusted for lower weapon cooldowns.
On top of that we have ghost heat and attempts to put in ed.
All while we also had extensive changes to weapon stats putting dreaded cerml 1.3point or 26% higher heat than tt values...

Edited by davoodoo, 26 October 2017 - 10:24 AM.

[Stinger554]

Bud Crue, on 26 October 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

You just blew my mind.
The current system IS ghost heat.

Ah...I see the edit.

I’m fine with such a linkage if applied to just mechs that warrant it. But I hate the idea that my 6ERML 1LPL Thunderbolt needs to be punished because a Mad-IIC running 6ERML and 2HLL may or may not be over performing. Punishing ALL builds because a few mixed energy builds are problematic is what happens with such a GH linkage, and all that does is maintain the status quo or make the divergence between good and mediocre even worse.

They shouldn't even mess with IS Ghost heat for LL and Meds because IS mech are not over performing; only Clans specifically being able to fire 2 HLL + 4-6 CERML for a huge alpha is a problem.

They way I see it is PPCs are Ghost heated at 20 points of Damage pinpoint; lasers should be limited to say double that because it's not PPFLD. So 8 ISERML, 5 CERML, 4 ISLL, 3CERLL(although I'm not 100% certain about this one), 6 ISMPL, 4ISLPL, 2HLL etc and firing a combination of weapons say 2HLL and one med laser will give you ghost heat, of the largest penalty, as the damage will be greater than 40. Apply to all lasers.

[davoodoo]

Everybody saying that clan laservomit is overperforming with 6 mediums and 2 larges

here you go
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=508&l=stock

make a viable build after linking larges with mediums...i wish to see it.

I dont give a **** about how much you think theres too much damage thrown in the game, you cant break mech customisation for the sake of reducing damage...

Edited by davoodoo, 26 October 2017 - 10:32 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

make a viable build after linking larges with mediums...i wish to see it.

2 gauss + 6 er med laser on deathstrike

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Bud Crue, on 26 October 2017 - 08:45 AM, said:

You just blew my mind.
The current system IS ghost heat.

Ah...I see the edit.

I’m fine with such a linkage if applied to just mechs that warrant it. But I hate the idea that my 6ERML 1LPL Thunderbolt needs to be punished because a Mad-IIC running 6ERML and 2HLL may or may not be over performing. Punishing ALL builds because a few mixed energy builds are problematic is what happens with such a GH linkage, and all that does is maintain the status quo or make the divergence between good and mediocre even worse.

Any nerf to weapons hurts many mechs. Any.

BUT

If we had larges and meds in one GH group, we could safely RAISE GH limits for most lasers. Eg. 8 for IS meds, 4 for IS larges, 6 for Clan meds except heavies, 3 for clan larges except Heavy larges. That would open lots of new options.

Of course we should still deal with gauss somehow, as it screws over most balance attemps ever under GH.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 11:14 AM, said:

2 gauss + 6 er med laser on deathstrike

Or the Night Gyr with 2 Gauss + 4 cERML (or 2 cERLL), or the Huntsman with 1 Gauss + 4-6 ERML.

Eventually people will realize that Gauss not having heat is the actual problem and stop nerfing all these combinations that only incentivize going back to boating albeit in limited capacities.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 26 October 2017 - 12:18 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 October 2017 - 12:15 PM, said:

Or the Night Gyr with 2 Gauss + 4 cERML (or 2 cERLL), or the Huntsman with 1 Gauss + 4-6 ERML.

Eventually people will realize that Gauss not having heat is the actual problem and stop nerfing all these combinations that only incentivize going back to boating albeit in limited capacities.

To me its better to have gauss with heat than to do the silly PPC PPC Gauss / Gauss Gauss PPC linkage. Onos a 35 alpha PPFLDREEEEeeeeeee damage but massive gauss vomit alphas are A-OK guis. Maybe just apply heat to gauss rifles hurr durr.

Nope, porque 1 heat gauss is a sacred MAH BATTELTAK cow. But da gauss heat would nerf mah non meta lore buildz tooooooo. Just nerf da ebil tryhards PGI k thx.

[Mystere]

SeventhSL, on 25 October 2017 - 10:35 PM, said:

2. If we had an accuracy mechanic to trade off against alpha size then we could get rid of ghost heat.

Can you say "convergence"?

<as in: remove the automatic near instant pinpoint pixel-perfect convergence weapons currently have -- for starters>

Curccu, on 26 October 2017 - 03:15 AM, said:

PGI has stated that they will not add slow convergence because it would break hitreg --> they are unable to code it properly.

Then implement a convergence-on-lock system instead.

[Mystere]

Daurock, on 26 October 2017 - 08:16 AM, said:

Honestly, if they'd figure out a way to include the Gauss rifle in ALL GH buckets, merge the large and medium Laser buckets ...

There was a name for that: Energy Draw!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 26 October 2017 - 01:30 PM, said:

There was a name for that: Energy Draw!

Yep, and it sapped a lot of the interesting dynamics from the game and ruined many styles of play.

[Trissila]

Khobai, on 26 October 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

The problem is mechs die so fast theres little reason to target components that dont directly contribute towards killing a mech. It almost defeats the purpose of even having different components.

They probably need to armor up torso sections more, especially side torsos, so theres more of a reason to shoot other components. side torsos are way too easy to destroy, its one of the reasons ISXL sucks so bad.

It's not about TTK, it's about return on investment.

Take, say, at Atlas AS7-D. The right arm has potentially 68 armor... and one energy hardpoint. The CT has 124 armor.

It makes absolutely zero tactical sense to spend 68 armor and then however many points of structure to get rid of one energy weapon, when for less than twice that much I could destroy the 'mech outright. But on the other hand, buffing armor doesn't do anything except piss everyone off, because unless you buff it to something completely insane like 500 CT armor, it is NEVER going to be worth wasting your time, heat, and/or ammo to take out one energy weapon.

And if you go and make the torsos an annoying pain in the *** to blow up? People are just going to start legging 'mechs to death, exactly as we did in MW2 and MW3.

[Khobai]

obviously hence why I said they need to armor up torso sections more

why would you shoot off an arm, when you can just shoot off a side torso, which also takes off the arm with it for only a few more points of damage?

logically, destroying a side torso should be at least twice as hard as destroying an arm, since destroying a side torso also results in destroying the attached arm. yet that isnt the case in MWO. in MWO side torsos are way too easy to blow out which is also why the ISXL isnt very good. especially since you can aim specifically for side torsos in MWO.

Quote

And if you go and make the torsos an annoying pain in the *** to blow up? People are just going to start legging 'mechs to death, exactly as we did in MW2 and MW3.

not if you increase leg armor too by the appropriate amount

that would also help lights survive longer, since losing a leg is a death sentence for a light

PGI should mine data to see how often each location gets hit, and they should change the armor ratios around based on that. Because MWO uses ratios from tabletop battletech but those ratios are based on RNG hit locations and dont actually reflect how often people aim for locations in MWO.

Based on how often people's CTs get hit in MWO, CT probably should have like 60%-70% of the mech's total armor lol. And arms should have proportionally way less armor because hardly anyone ever aims for arms.

Edited by Khobai, 26 October 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Trissila]

But my point is that unless they up-armor torsos into the stratosphere, it's not going to change much. And if they do? We'll just start aiming for legs. Armor all over the 'mechs is already TWICE what it is supposed to be, and that hasn't helped much, now has it?

That's really the core thing here. MWO is the most drawn-out that Mechwarrior has ever been, in terms of battle damage, but that's still not enough for some people.

'Mechs have double armor/structure compared to what they're supposed to have.

Heatsinks are completely awful compared to what they're supposed to be, with DHS offering a mere 1.4 dissipation instead of 2.0.

Ghost Heat artificially neuters the most efficient builds, so the builds in use are lower than what 'mechs should be capable of. Under standard BT rules, a GaussPeeps build (2xERPPC, 2xGauss) with 16 DHS (10 in the engine, plus 6 mounted) is heat-neutral; in the Heat Phase it generates and dissipates 32 points of heat if it fires everything. In MWO, this 'mech slags instantly if it pulls all four triggers at once.

Even with all of this, apparently "the TTK is too low". At what point do we just admit that certain people don't actually want to play a Battletech game where players have direct control of their actions instead of constantly having to pray the dice come up right?

[Bombast]

Trissila, on 26 October 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

Even with all of this, apparently "the TTK is too low". At what point do we just admit that certain people don't actually want to play a Battletech game where players have direct control of their actions instead of constantly having to pray the dice come up right?

Most of what your complaining about is related to how accurate out 'mechwarriors' (Us) are. Even the worst player is better than the average Battletech mechwarrior, and moderately good players has a 0 modifer at least, if not a negative one. Combine that with how targeting works (Everything where you aim it), and bam - Why all the things your complaining about are in the game.

As long as people can hit a component on command, we need all the armor and decreased heat capacity we can get.