Because the players who don't like the ST have left. Hell, this weekend is pretty much my first time back to the forums in the past month.
There is a thread talking about the fact there has been a loss of 25% of the player base since the start of the year. Of course the posts made now are going to talk more about how they like the skill tree... the people who posted when it was on PTS and when it went live have quite playing or don't bother posting much anymore.
And don't confuse the fact that people who dislike the skill tree are saying it needs to be scrapped. For some reason so many who were like "we need change, any change" assume that people who said "we need change, well thought out change" are opposed to the skill tree as a whole. The majority of the responses to the skill tree were that it's a good idea packaged in a very, very bad format. They wanted that format fixed, provided plenty of solutions to fixing the format, and were soundly ignored by PGI. Fix the format and most people would have enjoyed the change and would probably still be playing. PGI made a huge mistake when they made a skill tree maze.
When I talk about minority of players I mean the small portion of the players like boring grinding. The ones who equate navigating pointless complexity as a sign of skill and prefer things to be as difficult as possible so they can feel rewarded for wasting their time. Most players want something easy and fun to use so they can get to stompy fighting robots.
As for this not being the post to talk about these kinds of things... sure it is. Pretty much every thread on these boards has all kinds of tangents. The skill tree can be included in any discussion of balance because it's a mechanism for altering how mechs perform. Discussion of the ST is also relevant since it shows specifically how PGI would prefer to continue a bad decision because it was something they thought of instead of the players. Look at how much of balance reflects this philosophy of keeping bad mechanics and decisions simply because PGI didn't want to implement a player contributed solution that was better in the long run.
Like I said on page 1 in response to the outbursts that wafted over from that 25% thread;
Shifty McSwift, on 27 October 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:
Correlation does not imply causation, it's also a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc.
The graphs and stats we were shown had multiple jumps and drops over the seasons, there were similar number drops to what we have right now, way before we even had a skill tree. Making the argument that this specific drop is a result of the skill tree is just manipulating or cherry picking the stats.
And so much of what you say is subjective, like this in particular;
Ruar, on 29 October 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:
When I talk about minority of players I mean the small portion of the players like boring grinding.
Shifty McSwift, on 29 October 2017 - 10:21 AM, said:
Like I said on page 1 in response to the outbursts that wafted over from that 25% thread;
The graphs and stats we were shown had multiple jumps and drops over the seasons, there were similar number drops to what we have right now, way before we even had a skill tree. Making the argument that this specific drop is a result of the skill tree is just manipulating or cherry picking the stats.
And so much of what you say is subjective, like this in particular;
What is boring grinding to you?
Just because causation doesn't always equal correlation doesn't mean it can never apply. The skill tree patch was a significant change to the game, one that should have increased player numbers rather than have them decrease. Look at all of the major changes and the population adjustments afterwards. The skill tree should have increased players for 2-4 weeks before a noticeable decline in player retention. That's pretty standard for most MMOs and FPS games I've played over the last 20 years. It didn't happen with MWO though which means the failure of the skill tree can be directly tied to player numbers.
You don't have to agree, but you also can't simply dismiss the fact we can compare to other games for correlation.
And I pretty clearly defined what I consider boring grinding in the next sentence or two. It would help if you didn't cherry pick from what is said.
Just because causation doesn't always equal correlation doesn't mean it can never apply.
True, but that is something I never suggested. "Correlation does not imply causation" is not suggesting that it cannot, but there are a whole lot of reasons why the phrase historically has remained true.
Ruar, on 29 October 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:
The skill tree patch was a significant change to the game, one that should have increased player numbers rather than have them decrease. Look at all of the major changes and the population adjustments afterwards. The skill tree should have increased players for 2-4 weeks before a noticeable decline in player retention. That's pretty standard for most MMOs and FPS games I've played over the last 20 years. It didn't happen with MWO though which means the failure of the skill tree can be directly tied to player numbers.
Possibly, and this data, may help to show that alongside other data and/or testimonials etc etc. But again the stats also show other things too. Deleting the skill tree or doing a revert patch wouldn't necessarily boost stats either, what has shown to boost numbers in the past is big healthy patches with new grind/stuff to do.
Ruar, on 29 October 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:
You don't have to agree, but you also can't simply dismiss the fact we can compare to other games for correlation.
I never was.
Ruar, on 29 October 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:
And I pretty clearly defined what I consider boring grinding in the next sentence or two. It would help if you didn't cherry pick from what is said.
Picking one specific response within after responding to your whole response already, to ask a specific question about your subjective viewpoint, for mostly the purpose of pointing out that subjectivity, I really don't think is cherry picking, I mean I could have (could still if you'd really like) quoted every point of subjective opinion that I was referring to, I only chose one, after saying I was using it specifically as an example, so again, not cherry picking.
Immediately correlating that drop over the last year to the skill tree, while ignoring previous drops, IS cherry picking, sorry for pointing it out, but that's what it is.
With all things considered a more logical argument could be made that the skill tree patch was one of the lesser received ones, and might have had an effect of steepening this current drop. But at the same time a just as logical conclusion is that the skill tree patch just didn't give us enough cool new or well modified old content along with it, like the more well received patches had.
Either way saying that the skill tree is "killing the game" is very deceptive, it may be, or it may be one of many things, or it may not have made any sizable impact at all. If they dropped a big patch with some new maps and modes there's pretty good reason to think that graph will spike upward as usual, even with the skill tree still here.
Been away for the weekend with the wife. So got some catching up to do.
Kanil, on 27 October 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:
Because literally the only reason anyone might quit is entirely due to the skill tree?
People did not leave entirely due to the Skill Web. But, it was one of the factor I will mention below that figuratively "broke the players back" on what they were willing to deal with.
Shifty McSwift, on 27 October 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:
There's a phrase for that... Gah.. Um.. Correlation does not imply causation.. Yeah that one, it's also a logical fallacy, post hoc ergo propter hoc.
Correlation equals causation when you factor in all of the posts from people saying they are quitting because of the Skill Web, or know people who have. Maybe you read the forums with blinders on. Take them off and maybe you will see the many posts like this:
Dollar Bill, on 23 September 2017 - 02:27 PM, said:
No, my friends and I loved playing MWO and played nearly every day. We never felt burnt out. It was specifically the Skill Maze that killed MWO for us.
Put that together with the facts in this thread about how player numbers dropped right after the Skill Web was released, did an expected uptick (but not as much as expected) when the Civil War weapons were released, and since then have been continually dropping: https://mwomercs.com...280-of-players/ https://mwomercs.com...hy-player-base/
We are not "cherry picking' numbers. We take a look at the numbers and noticing a trend. A bad trend. If you want a little bit more enlightenment about player numbers, scoll to the bottom of this post.
Shifty McSwift, on 29 October 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:
The fact several people keep trying to shift to a complaint thread is just weird or a sign of their bias, in that they just refuse to see that this is quite literally a player talking about how he is/has been dealing with these elements that some are raging about with no real issue, he acts as an example of what you say is nobody or "minority of the players".
I wasn't going to get invloved with this until I saw one of your fellow Pro Skill Web Forum Warriors stated anyone who doesn't like the Skill Web must have never played any RPG game, 'EVAH! Which I addressed, and will now address saying that I have never played a FPS game "'EVAH!" below. You guys love to make nonsenical statements like that, and then try to shift the blame to anyone who dares to call in question the Skill Web as the ones why this is continued to be derailed. Every post you make like this is inviting a response. Don't want to have it continue? Then stop making posts like that. Otherwise, don't act surprised when you get a responses to your statements.
Shifty McSwift, on 29 October 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:
I mean you say the majority says X, but in one pretty recent topic directly related to the skill tree one of the first responses was something like "I am happy with the skill tree" (paraphrasing) and it has some 50 likes, so I guess it is relative? Unless you have some poll data or something I don't.
And I addressed that back on that thread:
KodiakGW, on 24 September 2017 - 08:22 AM, said:
Yep, and it reads like the list of the pro Skill Tree forum warriors back when many more were contributing to the discussion. Most everyone who wanted something better than what we got has left.
Guess what? That was a direct response to you! Quoting you! Blinders off buddy. Maybe head over to to the MWO Reddit and you will see just the opposite opinion on the Skill Web. Those people gave up here.
How about he number of likes given to a game reviewer who specifically called out he Skill Web in his video at 12:20? 4K likes, 80 dislikes. Link:
Don't need a poll, just need to be observant beyond what you want to see.
Shifty McSwift, on 29 October 2017 - 08:24 AM, said:
I personally am in the boat that says the system isn't perfect but I prefer it to the module and 3 mech skilling system substantially, more work on it would be great of course, and I suspect they will continue to, so, it is and has been basically a non issue for me for a while now. But again, this isn't the post to make those points really.
Finally, an admission. Maybe if you and the other Pro Skill Web Forum Warriors spent more time on proposing changes, looking for comprimises with one like me who see potential in this if the get rid of the crap, we might see player numbers rise. The only change made to this since release was to up the Velocity nodes. So as long as they keep hearing that "everything is fine" they won't spend any time on it, and just do more mech quirks.
Now onto why I'm responding.
CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 28 October 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:
to your first point: Mechwarrior was originally "Mechwarrior: The Battletech RPG " it was a book, actually, here have a picture:
But we like to forget this fact... before Mechwarrior was a video game, it was an RPG system, RPG elements, have always been within the games, just never to the point it's been added to MWO.
I really can't wait until HBS finishes their game. Then all the ones that want to make this "Battletech: FPS - Now with 100% RNG based hit and damage" will hopefully find happiness there. I won't be going. Specifically due to what happened in the video. The guy's best pilot, using up most of the drop deck tonnage driving an Atlas, BOOM - HEADSHOT - DEAD before even firing a shot thanks to RNG. No thanks.
CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 28 October 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:
Yes, MWO is a "SHOOTER" have you played a modern shooter in the past, I don't know, decade? Every single AAA shooter, has some form of RPG-esque leveling/skill mechanic. From CoD's progression systems,t o Battlefields.... with the exception of stuff like ArmA... hell even the newest DOOM had unlockable skill nodes and weapon progression trees!
Love this. First you call out anyone arguing against the Skill Tree as having no experience in RPGs. Then you call me specifically out as having no experience in FPS. Really don't read the forums do you? How many times have I mentioned that I play Planetside 2? In case you can't find one using Google:
KodiakGW, on 07 September 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:
Played five games tonight before moving over to Planetside 2.
And I've played alomst all the Battlefield games. So I do know all about progression systems. But, you know what? For my PS2 Lightning tank I don't need to unlock multiple zoom modules on my AP (armor piercing) cannon to unlock the Threat Detection optics. I don't have to unlock any Mine Guard to unlock the full top armor. I don't have to unlock anything I don't want to get what I do want. There is only one gating instance, and that is unlocking the cloaking bubble for the Sunderer. But to get it, you unlock complementary skills. How is Advanced Gyro, Speed Retention, and Speed Retention complementary to Cool Run? For a Locust?
CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 28 October 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:
2)My playtime has decreased more due to balance changes than the skill tree... again, I can take five minutes out of my play session [less even] to skill out a mech, because I know the nodes I want for a given role, and I take those, i don't sit around and hem and haw over what I'm going to take, I know I want most of the survival tree, some of the operations tree, and a good bit of weapons tree based on my loadout. Simple as that...
no my reasons for decreased playtime, has been things like light MG boats that wait until you're stripped of armor, then crit out all of your weapons, or the pure, insane amounts of LL vomit. Lack of Cone of Fire mechanics that should have been in since day 1... ect. And are not direct reaction to the skill tree, which I actively enjoy having as an addition over the old pilot tree nodes [convergence node required much?]
So it takes you 5 minutes now. And how long does it take you every time they nerf something? How about those players who never bothered to take Laser Duration nodes who now decide they must because of the recent nerfs? Now their template on what they want to skill requires them to look at the Skill Maze and try to figure out what they want to drop, or what they can drop but still keep the desired gated skills, in order to unlock all four of those. For every mech. How about people who want to drop SRMs for an LBX because of that nerf? At least the old system had many skills permanently upgraded you did not worry about changing or losing. Just modules to swap for different weapon systems, but keep the non-weapon ones. Unless you were one of the "cheapskates" Russ was trying to catch with the new Skill Web. Which I guess he accompished just the opposite, he gave them what they wanted.
As for the convergence node. I already addressed that:
KodiakGW, on 23 September 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:
1) They could have removed that at any point and made it something else. They had plenty of other skills they could have done there. You know that quite well.
That was a direct response to you. Quoting you. Guess you read with blinders too.
The Skill Tree alone is not the problem. The fact that we all know that PGI continully nerfs things, reguiring us to revisit the Skill Web to find new path to get us the best benefit is part of the reason. Maybe you don't bother, but others would, and their issues with it need to be addressed.
If the Skill Tree were fixed to address many of it's problems, I'd have six of my friends back in the game. Dollar Bill might be back with his friends giving it a go. All of them were willing to deal with everything you mentioned for your decreased play time. You take advantage of it until it is expectedly nerfed. If I got any of the changes I've been asking for, my play time and purchasing would increase. But, you are happy with the Skill Web, and your play time is decreasing. Maybe I should quote you from someone who seems to have great insight into keeping player numbers up.
CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 14 October 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:
Either play the game as is, or move on, it's literally that simple.
Laser vomit has been around for a long time. MG vomit is only going to get worse in January. Maybe you should take his advice.
CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 28 October 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:
3) MWO is 5 years old... that's half a decade, that's literally, half the time the franchise was dead... of a pure, PVP based, mech experience. That's fairly impressive for a pure PVP game's run. 5 years, for a non-community driven, non-player run game. It's really impressive, especially given it's niche. Battletech fans, are hardcore when it comes to stuff like this. However, even I, as a long time battletech/mechwarrior fan, can see when things are running thin, and MWO, despite having relatively solid core gameplay... has little to offer. The slow release of new maps, the stagnant gameplay and meta... it's not conducive to the game's playerbase or enviornment, and it's turned a LOT of people off over the years.
And I brought 6 people into the game after so many years, in December 2016. They were having fun and spending lots of money, right up until the Skill Web, as I stated in the thread linked above. Again, they left not because of just the Skill Web, but because it was the one major additional thing they were no longer willing to deal with to continue playing. The cSPL nerf, lack of new maps, and Kodiak nerf also played a part.
People are still playing CS:GO in large numbers, which has not introduced anything new in how long? If something holds someone's interest, they will continue playing it. That is, until changes are made that drive players away. And also (again):
KodiakGW, on 27 October 2017 - 05:40 AM, said:
So, game has run it’s course..even though MW5 just got a write up that should bring players back or gain interest from ones who never played before, like OP. Yet, player numbers are still dropping.
...
CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 28 October 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:
So yeah, I think MWO has run it's course, and you can complain all you want, but you're also on a PUBLIC forum, which means anyone can call you out if they so choose. I will happily, state my opinion, just as you have stated yours.
And I can call you out too. We can debate if the facts are proving me right. If you don't want to see the ones I've posted, that is your decision. Here is a little extra fact for you and your Pro Skill Tree Forum Warriors.
September to October 2016 player count
35,798 to 37,041 increase - I would attribute it to the grab bag event.
September to October 2017? Less than two days left, and we are looking at player loss. From 28,749 to 28,037 as of right now. And they are giving away CBill bonus mech this time. Not XP bonus champions or standard mechs. I haven't even begun looking at number of people who play enough games to not count as alt accounts, or people who came in for a handful of games and left.
And, just to head off the rebuttal of "it's low because everyone is trying to get the FP part done first." Per PGI:
Unfortunately, players are having long wait times when searching for matches in Faction Play due to:
1) A large portion of players grabbing their 100 loot bags in Quick Play.
Link: https://mwomercs.com...-3-event-update
So, please respond with the same arguements you have always been making. I'll just go ahead and quote you my responses from this and other threads to futher prove that you guys only want to see what you argee with. Time to wake up.
I have no particular desire to go further outside of the MWO game and forum for what is really forum level discussion, the devs might in some cases, but that's actually one of the negative aspects about the situation for me (maybe because I don't kick and scream about things I view negatively, people assume I must be a sycophant?) there should be no real need to go outside the game and forum for basic communications.
I also have no onus or responsibility in making personal admissions and including personal opinion, most good discussion doesn't really require it, most times when I do make a personal point I go out of my way to mention that it is, because
it often has so little value other than providing my context or anecdotal evidence.
But yeah, with comments like "Pro skill web forum warriors", I don't think you are trying to have a discussion anyway. You have already made up your mind.
What kind of numbers have you personally compiled around people who have in no uncertain terms stated they have uninstalled/stopped playing because of the skill tree? Not that you have to have such a list, but you seem to have tracked down more specific outside data on it, and might have some rough numbers at least. I am curious to what your estimates would be there.
Don't need a poll, just need to be observant beyond what you want to see.
Forums is all you want to see. There is a big world of opinions and facts outside of one news source. Educate yourself.
Leaderboard numbers, including year over year numbers, are all you need for numbers to see there is an issue and when it began.
Looks like you and ones like you have already made up your mind too. Can see it in all your posts. Shall I find one of you telling people to leave if they don’t like it? I did for your buddy.
KodiakGW, on 30 October 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:
Maybe if you and the other Pro Skill Web Forum Warriors spent more time on proposing changes, looking for comprimises with one like me who see potential in this if the get rid of the crap, we might see player numbers rise.
So now we know you are unwilling to have a discussion. Just added more rhetoric instead of even suggesting one compromise to the points I made. Here, I’ll start the discussion by rehashing a point I made in June. I already know what can be done because I can see the programming already applied to other nodes.
KodiakGW, on 27 June 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:
Tell that to the 10 ERLL Dire Whale I had on my team two nights ago.
Boating is still as bad as it was BECAUSE Skill Tree was not set up to benefit multi range builds. It could have been. Before I could take 10% range modules for my long range weapons, and 12% Cooldown modules for the short range ones. Now, I get anemic percentage boosts for both. Might as well boat.
That was in reply to you. Let’s see if you make the same kind of reply to it you made back then.
I guess you are talking to me? Though I don't really have any "buddies" on here, people I agree with and posts that I have respected sure, but I think I must annoy a lot of people in how I do sit on the fence or play devils advocate a lot, because I respond to specific posts and/or part of posts.
This is just one of many reasons that playing the assumption game and bringing too much personal bias/opinion into topics, you get that feeling of "must be for or against" aka polarisation/binary oppositional positioning.
If you must know one of the main reasons I (personal opinion incoming) am flexible on this topic in general is the lack of impact is has from my perspective, it is a pretty simple system of customisation. And if that system disappeared tomorrow, I'd continue to play, if it went back to modules and 3 mech mastery, I would continue to play, I mean I was playing that mode too prior to this. I am just not so attached to it that I am willing to throw out ultimatums and definitive statements on it in general, the relevance of it to my playing the game is pretty small. But again that is just me, I am willing to understand that many differing perspectives exist on it.
LoL, well I am not a dev so what authority do I have in making physical change, I'm just a guy playing and commenting, also a guy who has made several suggestion topics surrounding the skill tree, and a couple of response topics in patch feedback sections too, along with suggestions on many other topics, I am quite sure I am not the only one with varying feelings towards it too, discussion is and has been had often and everywhere on the forums, it's up to the devs to pick and choose what to respond to.
If you and others hate it then, sure leave and express discontent relative to your experience, but do you really think you have the solution to all woes, or know what is at the heart of every player and the cause of player base shifts? The direct player testimonials are important, so bring them on and use them if they are from valid sources. They can work when their messages aligns in large numbers to paint a greater picture.
So far you sourced a pretty general review video that does mention the skill tree, briefly among, a pretty large review of the entire game, and references to some threads and the 6 people you personally knew, and then its just back to the stats, which have way more variable factors than just skill tree, again, if they did change/revert/remove the system I would not be hugely fussed in any way, but the effect of actually doing that might not be at all positive, you cannot really guarantee that, beyond the testimonials, which if they do exist in high numbers, all you can do is point them out in hope of influencing action in that direction.
Just added more rhetoric instead of even suggesting one compromise to the points I made.
Edit:
Thinking out loud here. If I really didn't care whether or not something were to be taken out of a game, I would not bother wasting my time debating that with anyone. I especially would not write long rebuttals, and numerous replies. I would not bother even reading arguments about what players believe numbers show, and certainly not debate points that might fix issues and increase the player base. I would focus on subjects I cared about.
No. If I admitted that I would continue to play, twice..in a row, if something that seemed to be causing players to leave were to be removed, I would not engage in activities I mentioned above...
You see, if I did, then people could justifiably believe that I was in fact concerned about any change to the game feature that is being debated. That maybe I had some sort of vested interest in making sure it did not change. Either that, or engaging in behavior with the sole purpose to antagonize people.
I mean, you don't see me making posts in the thread about the Nightstar arms. Why? I don't care what they do. I have my opinion about which looks better, and which is functionally better. But I would not be hugely fussed either way. So, I don't bother.
I also just want to say that I love when people engage in a certain behavior, like respond with directed comments without quoting, then act all shocked when someone does the same thing to them.
1
Ruar, on 29 October 2017 - 10:05 AM, said:
