61 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Well that and other assault mechs also mostly have better mobility and a smaller frame, unless they are an anni.

yeah but even an assault with a smaller frame is still like the size of a barn. once mechs reach assault size, theyre still just easy to hit, regardless of how much bigger they get.

[InvictusLee]

davoodoo, on 29 October 2017 - 07:00 AM, said:

ill ask, what at this point in time can atlas do, that kgc or even mauler cant?

It can be spooky, and slightly faster.

Thats it.

I honestly feel that it is really under armored, especially since we got the anni in game. Why take an Atlas when I can have an Anni that brings all the weapons? Or a KGC that brings all the Dakka or a Mauler that brings the Deus Vult?

[Gamuray]

Frankly, though I barely play the Atlas, I have pretty good success with it. Key with it is to not be the first one into the fight. Enter the fight when some enemies are already distracted, make sure you have friendlies moving with you, and try to come in from an awkward angle for enemy firing lines.

Remember, Atlas is best in close quarters, where the enemy's maneuverability is irrelevant and you can avod many enemies focusing on you. Additionally, it allows the arms to be better shield because you get to choose the engagement angle. That's one thing the Atlas has up on the KGC and Anni, shield arms and pure burst damage at short range.

For reference, I use UAC20 and MRM 60. You close in and punch straight through the CT in 1-3 shots...

Cuz ain't nobody happy to see an Atlas in their face.

[Shard Phoenix]

Every so often I bring my Atlas-S(L) out of mothballs, but I fairly rapidly remember why I mothballed it.

[Jun Watarase]

The sad thing is that a 5 LPL battlemaster has far more firepower and survivability than a AS7-D because it can ridge hump and has amazing range.

[YueFei]

Khobai, on 29 October 2017 - 01:22 PM, said:

yeah but even an assault with a smaller frame is still like the size of a barn. once mechs reach assault size, theyre still just easy to hit, regardless of how much bigger they get.

I really feel that PGI made a huge mistake with the mech scaling (generally the mechs being bigger than in the lore).

Unfortunately that ship has sailed already, there's probably no turning back on the scaling.

The thing is, all the mechs have ridiculous accelerations already as it is. The Marauder IIC, for example, has better acceleration than a Tesla that goes 0-to-60 mph in 2.3 seconds. The Tesla has an acceleration of 11.66 meters/sec^2, but the Marauder with max skill tree accelerates at 13.43 meters/sec^2. And the Marauder is on the sluggish end of the scale of MWO mechs. But, thanks to its hitboxes, combining accel/decel with small shifts via leg turning is effective in spreading the damage on a Marauder.

Locusts accelerate at a whopping 10+ g's and decelerate at a neck-breaking 22+ g's.

Some mechs were just cursed with awful hitboxes (like the Awesome was, since the very beginning of MWO). They ought to be compensated for it. Adding armor/structure quirks is nice, but that doesn't change the fact that a much wider mech with crappy hardpoint locations still needs more time to expose to shoot, is seen sooner by the enemy (thanks to wide arms sticking out first), has worse convergence thanks to its width, and needs more time to recover back into cover. Having an extra 20 hitpoints is nice, but having the agility to spread the damage to adjacent hitboxes (which have a lot more than 20 hitpoints, as well as being able to use wrecked hitboxes as a damage soak and taking advantage of the 40% damage transfer mechanic) is worth a lot more.

Edited by YueFei, 29 October 2017 - 10:59 PM.

[Jungle Rhino]

YueFei, on 29 October 2017 - 10:55 PM, said:

The thing is, all the mechs have ridiculous accelerations already as it is. The Marauder IIC, for example, has better acceleration than a Tesla that goes 0-to-60 mph in 2.3 seconds. The Tesla has an acceleration of 11.66 meters/sec^2, but the Marauder with max skill tree accelerates at 13.43 meters/sec^2. And the Marauder is on the sluggish end of the scale of MWO mechs. But, thanks to its hitboxes, combining accel/decel with small shifts via leg turning is effective in spreading the damage on a Marauder.

Locusts accelerate at a whopping 10+ g's and decelerate at a neck-breaking 22+ g's.

Could not agree more - if the 'mechs had more realistic accelerations they would be far more challenging to pilot and would discourage ridge tarting which I think is only a good thing.

[Shifty McSwift]

It's definitely true that some assault and heavies have way too high speeds/mobility like that, but its also true that some lights and mediums have way too many hardpoints or boating potentials that align them with heavy and assault damage rates.

Just a "problem" with the powercreep of the mechpack method, have to keep them interesting/unique/competetive, and have to keep pushing them out that will only get "worse". I used quotation marks there, because for some it is not a problem at all, more just part of the expansive nature of the game's potentials.

[SgtMagor]

Atlas was never meant to be a slow moving mountain of metal that cant pick up its own arms. here is a pic minus a 1000 words to describe the agility and mobility of the Atlas!

[Athom83]

Shard Phoenix, on 29 October 2017 - 09:25 PM, said:

Every so often I bring my Atlas-S(L) out of mothballs, but I fairly rapidly remember why I mothballed it.

Yah, I'm seeing a lot of people bringing it out lately, and run it with 3 Large class lasers (LL, ERLL, and/or LPL), LRMs, and maybe a UAC/2. I'm not kidding, I've seen this build at least 4 or 5 times in the last few weeks. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b5f605c61e60880

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

You know what... screw each and every one of you who ***** about mechs having "low slung" hardpoints.

This kind of meta thinking has ****** this game beyond fixing... I'll be so ******* glad when MW5 comes out and I won't have to deal with you elitist ******** anymore.

[storm0545]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 30 October 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

You know what... screw each and every one of you who ***** about mechs having "low slung" hardpoints.

This kind of meta thinking has ****** this game beyond fixing... I'll be so ******* glad when MW5 comes out and I won't have to deal with you elitist ******** anymore.

Outside of faction play which is a moot point to argue about already i just run what i want to run in quickplay because thats what the mode is designed for and ill be damned if i aint taking my founders atlas out for a spin and knocking someone's teeth in b4 i pop.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

storm0545, on 30 October 2017 - 05:24 AM, said:

Outside of faction play which is a moot point to argue about already i just run what i want to run in quickplay because thats what the mode is designed for and ill be damned if i aint taking my founders atlas out for a spin and knocking someone's teeth in b4 i pop.

I've had matches against Direwhales with the founders atlas where I've rubbled them...

it's just frustrating, all of this talk about how mechs are "Doa" simply because of low slung hardpoints... I'm tired of the elitist attutide of some on this site simply because a mech doesn't conform to the absolute most optimal playstyle...

it has stagnated this game worse than anything PGI has ever done.

[Athom83]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 30 October 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

You know what... screw each and every one of you who ***** about mechs having "low slung" hardpoints. This kind of meta thinking has ****** this game beyond fixing... I'll be so ******* glad when MW5 comes out and I won't have to deal with you elitist ******** anymore.

I know. And one thing they don't really mention either is that the first missile point on all the Atlas variants is very high mounted. Fit an MRM 30 or MRM 40 in it and it can hillhump just fine (if you wan't to be a heretic and do that in an Atlas). But they thing they really want to sweep under the rug is that it is probably one of the best corner peekers in the game. Poke out the left of a corner, spam them with MRMs/SRMs to the face. Pop from the right of the corner, blast them in the face with an Ultra 20 or pair of RACs.

[Shard Phoenix]

Athom83, on 30 October 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

Yah, I'm seeing a lot of people bringing it out lately, and run it with 3 Large class lasers (LL, ERLL, and/or LPL), LRMs, and maybe a UAC/2. I'm not kidding, I've seen this build at least 4 or 5 times in the last few weeks. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b5f605c61e60880

That's an "interesting" build.

Mine is just a garden variety Splat build with SRM6+A and an AC/20. Loadout is fine, it's just that the Atlas doesn't take a beating like it used to. Power Creep has not been kind to it.

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 30 October 2017 - 04:40 AM, said:

You know what... screw each and every one of you who ***** about mechs having "low slung" hardpoints.

This kind of meta thinking has ****** this game beyond fixing... I'll be so ******* glad when MW5 comes out and I won't have to deal with you elitist ******** anymore.

Not that I agree with it, but I get the sentiment of why people ***** about low hard points in the "poke and trade" world in which MW:O exists. Sucks to get picked apart because you have to expose to high damage alpha's and OMGPPFLD spam just to try to get a shot off.

But, that's the environment in which we have to live when we play the game. What's driven me away from the game to some degree or another is PGI trying to turn MW:O into an E-SPURT. Watched a couple of the WC matches on Twitch and holy hell were they boring.

[YueFei]

Shard Phoenix, on 30 October 2017 - 06:05 AM, said:

That's an "interesting" build.

Mine is just a garden variety Splat build with SRM6+A and an AC/20. Loadout is fine, it's just that the Atlas doesn't take a beating like it used to. Power Creep has not been kind to it.



Not that I agree with it, but I get the sentiment of why people ***** about low hard points in the "poke and trade" world in which MW:O exists. Sucks to get picked apart because you have to expose to high damage alpha's and OMGPPFLD spam just to try to get a shot off.

But, that's the environment in which we have to live when we play the game. What's driven me away from the game to some degree or another is PGI trying to turn MW:O into an E-SPURT. Watched a couple of the WC matches on Twitch and holy hell were they boring.

Actually a lot of folks who complain about the low-slung hardpoints on a mech (or wide hitboxes, or both at the same time) aren't some elitists trying to insult a mech. They're usually pointing out those disadvantages to try to advocate for improvements to that mech in other ways.

I drive a HBK-4SP more than anything else. Been driving it since the beginning, well before the Clans were introduced, well before quirks. With the classic SRM+MedLas build, you can't use the arm-mounted lasers so easily when hill-humping because they are so low slung, and when cornering you need to fully expose your mech. Compare this with the other classic Hunchbacks, which can get most of their firepower on target while exposing less of themselves. It's a double-whammy because not only you make yourself a larger target in a HBK-4SP, but you also need more time to fully expose, and more time to pull back into cover.

If I were to suggest that the HBK-4SP gets better accel/decel versus the other HBK variants to compensate for this, it's not because I'm hating on my own favorite ride.

Instead PGI gave the HBK-4SP structure quirks (which were +100% structure at some point), which is an attempt to compensate it.

However, I think PGI ought to consider the potential to balance things via agility quirks, and exactly how/why/when to apply them. A reasonable starting baseline, IMO, would be:

• Can this mech step in and out of cover in a similar timeframe as other mechs that have more favorable hitboxes/hardpoint locations? E.g: Mech A only needs to expose the RA/RT/CT to get off a shot with all/most of its firepower. Mech B needs to expose its entire body to shoot. What accel/decel does Mech B need so that its exposure time is similar to Mech A's? Keep in mind, even with the same exposure time, Mech B still presents a larger profile to be shot at.
  
• Can this mech spread the incoming damage effectively, against the very best shooters in the game? This is important, because then it puts damage spreading in the hands of the pilot being shot at, and is less dependent on just praying that the guy shooting at the mech has lousy aim.

The thing is, PGI does consider agility when balancing, but given how hit-or-miss they've been with it, it feels like they're lobbing artillery shells early-WW1-style, which is by "feel", rather than by rigorous calculation.

[davoodoo]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 30 October 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

I've had matches against Direwhales with the founders atlas where I've rubbled them...

it's just frustrating, all of this talk about how mechs are "Doa" simply because of low slung hardpoints... I'm tired of the elitist attutide of some on this site simply because a mech doesn't conform to the absolute most optimal playstyle...

it has stagnated this game worse than anything PGI has ever done.

I find it more as objective statement about mech than subjective opinion.
Want to buy and run doa mech fine, dont pretend its balance marvel though.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

davoodoo, on 30 October 2017 - 08:29 AM, said:

I find it more as objective statement about mech than subjective opinion.
Want to buy and run doa mech fine, dont pretend its balance marvel though.

I'm not pretending that.

But I'm also pointing out that you can take "sub optimal" mechs and do well. YES, the current environment is terrible with the poke warrior mentality, but again, Mechwarrior's gameplay has been solved since 1995. boat lasers, shoot for legs, rinse, repeat, victory.

It's really no different in MWO, Boat Lasers, hit at range.

SSDD, as they say. Which means we're back to looking at Battlemechs as gunbags with different hitboxes, which is what we were supposed to be AVOIDING.

But players that decide to do that, are ruining the game, you're constantly announcing mechs DOA because "muh high hardpoints." You're constantly pushing a narriation that anything that does not fit within X is bad.

I'm just sick of it man, 5 years of this BS.

[davoodoo]

Well thats difference in maps.

Most maps in even most recent mw4 had big flat or pretty flat open spaces. Nowhere to obstruct low slung arms.

On the other hand mwo maps are littered with cover and weapons at cockpit height reduce exposure therefore being better.

Edited by davoodoo, 30 October 2017 - 10:56 AM.

[Zookeeper Dan]

The Atlas needs is role defined better. The Atlas is meant to lead a push into enemy lines. To do this it needs mobility and survivability over firepower. And this is how it lines up with the other IS 100 tonners.

Annihilator - Higher Firepower, Higher Survivability, Lower Mobility
Plays like a turret.
King Crab - Higher Firepower, Higher Mobility, Lower Survivability
Better at corner and ridge poking.
Atlas - Higher Mobility, Higher Survivability, Lower Firepower
Lead the push

Unfortunately the survivability of the Atlas has taken a hit or is eclipsed by other mechs. At the very least all the versions should get an armor bonus instead of structure. They shouls also get a torso speed bonus to help spread damage. The rest of the mobility values can stay the same.