405 replies to this topic

[g4borg]

El Bandito, on 30 October 2017 - 07:39 PM, said:

FP should be locked for players unless they purchase 8 mechs of that faction. Sick of seeing random pugs with skill-less trial mechs.

this has nothing to do with the OP from the PO either tho

you cannot know if someone with more than 8 mechs will have brains. he can just buy them. and its even worse for people who actually do have the ability to play skilled to have to farm the first 4 mechbays. which is a bit hard without playing FP in the first place, if you do not pay, since you get the mechbays for playing there...

a general rule of thumb is, that a player who is usually more willing to learn a game in depth, and try to play smart and skilled, will be less willing to grind. Players who however are willing to grind and get a lot of things, usually tend not to improve in their gameplay or care about the teamwork.

It is a sad truth, and no matter how many mechs you take as entry point, you will always have bad players in the pug crowd.

competitive players should be exposed to FP rather sooner than later, since it is one of the points in the game they might decide its worth playing.

but i do agree, you should not be able to get into fp with trial mechs, so at least have a full owned dropdeck to join. chances are, most players will buy IS and Clan mechs mixed anyway at start, because they are so delighfully highlighted in the list somewhere as an entry in an obscure popup, so they might have to grind a bit anyway.

Also, i have seen, MWO has a special antidote against the lonely clueless pug. once a good leader enters, who just tells others what to do, people follow. As long as it is not toxic after-battle-criticism only, or useless "do not do this advice", but really orders that make sense, usually pugs can become a fun and strong team and even enjoy the round going down.

Just saying, I do not think the random trial mech user is your real problem, you just blame the immigrant.

---

Anyway, all this has nothing to do with organized long range ER laser farming or similar, the OP is talking about. I don't like the obsession with long range weaponry anyway, and find if a weapon is intended for long range use, it should at least suffer in mid range downwards. for a fact, i do not like the whole IS vs. clan philosophy in FP. while the philosophy is interesting for fitting and mech lore, using only clans or only IS kinda calls out for abuse.

Edited by g4borg, 31 October 2017 - 04:10 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Armored Yokai, on 30 October 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

From getting certain things removed/nerfed to making faction play un-fun, here are the things why particular units are ruining it for everyone else.A Unit got Knock-down removed because they angered Paul (who is in charge of balance) and back when there was better jump-jets a unit or more would all buy DS Victors and proceed to slap on x2 PPC and 1 AC10 then just jump around like no tomorrow, which caused tons of QQ because people couldn't target them.


When i play FW sometimes I go against 8-12 Unit Drops that just massacre my team by using either the most meta mech they can find or they all use the same mech/build and they just peekaboo laservomit alpha or destroy leg srm rush, soon after they proceed to camp drop-ships and destroy objs until it is 1-10% and just farm the opponents without giving them a chance. The players that are not in a unit just get stomped and they don't deal much damage because they get focused down while securing no cbill prize and they think to themselves "Is this really worth it? I mean I get stomped every game and I can't do anything because i'm getting obliterated as soon as i drop or poke my head out, the game lasts 30 minutes and i only make 100,000-300,000...which i could make much more if i play QP" to top this off, there are times when they will act so arrogant and wave around their Epeen "oh you wouldn't have a chance even if you tried" "GG Easy" "You guys are bad" and when people start running off the map or blowing themselves up they start to call you names and say they will report you for not letting them have more kills to which they already have.

People are getting tired or perhaps are already tired of FP because the games there are toxic and often one-sided....not to mention also annoying to deal with if you get a unit in the opposite drop.

If i was allowed to name and shame the Units I would most certainly do it.

If your getting detroyed by Clan mechs playing peek a boo, then you have to change to not allow them to do that.

YOU have to take control of the battle and not allow the enemy to play the game that allows such things.

If your dropping in the Group/Unit Teamwork centered queue all alone, playing QP with respawn, you will get destroyed and rightly so.

You can easily end the peek a boo but you need a team behind you, you do not get that playing alone in a team queue.

Little 'secret' for you, your not fighting Clans as it were, you are fighting certain Clan weapons. Weapons are key. There are a small number that are used, pay attention to them. Learn to beat those weapons and you beat Clans.

[El Bandito]

g4borg, on 31 October 2017 - 04:06 AM, said:

Just saying, I do not think the random trial mech user is your real problem, you just blame the immigrant.

Ah but it is one part of the problem. Trial mechs means newbies, and newbies have no business playing FP, period. PGI should instead find better ways to reward mechbays to newbies. Such as when they finish tutorial, or when they finish their first 100 matches.

Edited by El Bandito, 31 October 2017 - 04:35 AM.

[mogs01gt]

FW has zero to do with why the population is low. This game isnt popular because of its stagnant game play. There are no defined roles for mechs or game modes that allow different mechs to excel.

Just imagine a capture the flag game mode, a defending DWF or Stalkers dream!

Edited by mogs01gt, 31 October 2017 - 04:34 AM.

[Kodyn]

Units are not at all why FP is terrible, it's terrible because it was designed poorly and never properly fixed. The population isn't low due to FP, it's due to MWO being an extremely niche game in a flooded market, not to mention the glacial state of development, poorly optimized graphics/engine, and little exposure. FP's failures certainly haven't helped any, but they aren't the root cause of all this.

In every online title I've ever played, there will be units or players who make the game miserable for others simply because they're much better and either due to low population, poor matchmaking, etc- wind up against less capable players. This is a development/design issue, as well as a population issue, not the units themselves who are at fault. Remove units from MWO or limit them in some major fashion, and you will truly see this game die. Right now I think some of those large units are one of the few things keeping the game going, keeping the community alive.

If you want to get better at and enjoy FP, despite the state it's in, then join a large, organized unit. It's a mode suitable only for that, anything less and it will be a nightmare. Even in a unit, you may not enjoy it- if so, then don't play it. I used to be in a unit that did a lot of FP when it first dropped, and we enjoyed it for a bit, myself included, but then it got stale, people stopped wanting to play and that was that. Now that I play largely solo, I don't give FP a second thought. If it ever improves, I may give it another crack, rejoin a unit, but for now, I'm content derping around in QP.

MWO is what you make of it. Play it the way you enjoy it, and if you don't enjoy it, don't play it. I take 3-6 month breaks from the game and then come back, each time either finding new ways to enjoy the game, or getting bored and moving on to the next break. When I do enjoy it, it's great and I can spend hours on end in back-to-back QP matches. I try not to take it too seriously, and I have fun. When I expect more from PGI than they are capable of delivering, I always end up disappointed, so I removed that disappointment by setting my own goals, making my own fun with the tools provided. Perhaps someday FP will get fixed, perhaps the game will be advertised, perhaps Battletech itself will become more popular and enjoy a larger fanbase, but none of these things are likely at this point, so just do what you enjoy and get what you can from the game, or find something you do enjoy.

Just my two CBills on staying sane while enjoying MWO, for whatever it's worth.

[Khobai]

Quote

Units are not at all why FP is terrible, it's terrible because it was designed poorly and never properly fixed

Clan vs IS balance being !@#$ is reason #1 FP is terrible.

Units/groups beating up on Pugs is reason #2

but yes units/groups beating on pugs absolutely and undeniably contributes to FP being a unsatisfying game experience

Quote

In every online title I've ever played, there will be units or players who make the game miserable for others

most decent online games separate groups from pugs. thats basic sh*t. you learn that in game design 101.

Quote

If you want to get better at and enjoy FP, despite the state it's in, then join a large, organized unit.

how does that fix the problem? then youre the one beating on pugs.

by joining a large unit youre still contributing to the problem not making it better.

Groups vs pugs should never happen.

Quote

Ah but it is one part of the problem. Trial mechs means newbies, and newbies have no business playing FP, period. PGI should instead find better ways to reward mechbays to newbies. Such as when they finish tutorial, or when they finish their first 100 matches.

So dont allow trial mechs in FP. im fine with that. that would increase the quality of pugs slightly.

but groups vs pugs still needs to be addressed. Groups should not be allowed to beat up on pugs.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2017 - 08:04 AM.

[Skipmagnet]

Joining a unit is not the panacea some people in this thread suggest it is. Units are not for everyone.

[Poptimus Rhyme Wallace]

there is alot of "should this...", "should not that... " "PGI did not...".

It is on the participants shoulders to not further diminish the enjoyment of the game, being 12 players on comms with the best setup going against a pug there is alot of onus on YOU to not make the match you ended up in against a bunch of pugs suck balls.

Hypothetically the "greatest players" could for example: try a more experimental approach, rather than deathball and left leg the unorganized pugs, believe it or not it IS possible to have fun in this game, but if you are hellbent on having a great "epeen rating" then nothing I, or anyone else, can say will make you understand why bad behavior is a problem, incentivized by bad design or not.

[Nightbird]

It killed me, nerf it!
It's not my fault we lost, it's my team's
They're all hacking
LRMs are good
I play for fun, meta is not fun, let me playing anything I want and still win

Fine, but I suggest quick play, faction play is for units and try hards.

[Kodyn]

The reason that I stated that most games I've played have players that will simply be better and therefore make things miserable for those they faced is that I came up in EVE Online, so maybe I do have a different perspective than some- In EVE you get thrown into the fire, and it's how you learn. Also if you ever go into the open world of Elite Dangerous, or play any game with a low enough population that MM valves need to be opened in order to avoid 10 min wait times, such as Dreadnought or Fractured Space. Sorry if I've played different games than some of you...doesn't make me wrong, it's just different experiences.

As to the "join a unit" thing- FP is clearly designed to be a better experience for units than solos. Should it be? Perhaps not, but it's how it shook out. Those of us giving that particular snippet of advice aren't saying it's how it should be, just that it's how it is in this game. If you don't like units, don't join a unit, no one's forcing you. Neither is anyone forcing you to play FP, so, I don't get the argument here...Speaking only for myself, I was trying to make the OP's life easier, not pressure them.

Edited by Kodyn, 31 October 2017 - 08:22 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

groups vs pugs shouldnt even be a thing

there should be two buckets: one for pugs and one for groups

if groups have to wait longer to find a match, too damn bad, but pugs shouldnt suffer for their convenience

Atypical solo attitude. It's THAT that's spoiled MWO, anti group I'm a super solo special snowflake whining-just deplorable.
That said though,
Some of the groups in this game have no sense of honour, sportsmanship or even basic manners. I had an argument with one prominent unit member who was aghast I suggested they don't "play to win at all costs" and treat it like a game, played for fun. HJe said why should I throw matches? I want to win!
I replied that I didn't want him to throw matches, just rather not play like a jerk, I also pointed out if you carry on, what will you win? an empty game mode with no one to play with. Grats on that dummy.
He still didn't get it.
Lolzorz meta is not cool, neither is spawn camping. Justify it all you like it's a shamefully poor behaviour that speaks volumes about the people doing it.
Play well, use great tactics and conduct yourself with good sportsmanship and you'll have my respect. Carry on with the trashtalking, spawn farming and sad meta humping and you just earn my enmity and less and less people to play with.

"But pgi allow it, so I'll use it." Weak and pathetic moral dodging. just because you can doesn't mean you should. Grow a spine people,.this game's population is DECREASING. If you want to keep playing it, learn to behave like human beings. Not greedy little savages-STOP chasing people away.

Edited by Jon Gotham, 31 October 2017 - 08:29 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Joining a unit is not the panacea some people in this thread suggest it is. Units are not for everyone.

even if you join a unit, now youre the one sealclubbing pugs, instead of the one being sealclubbed

it might solve the problem for YOU, but it doesnt solve the problem for EVERYONE

Like you said, joining a unit is not everyones cup of tea, so you will never be able to encourage all pugs to join units. Its simply not a reasonable expectation.

And requiring pugs to join units when they dont want to in order to play faction play will just make them quit FP altogether. And FP will have even less players than it does now.

Quote

Atypical solo attitude. It's THAT that's spoiled MWO, anti group I'm a super solo special snowflake whining-just deplorable.

Im not anti group. Im anti group vs pugs. Im 100% okay with groups existing as long as they play other groups.

There is no way that group vs pug could ever be construed as enjoyable for pugs. Youre subjecting pugs to a one sided match they have virtually no hope of winning. How is that fine?

There is nothing deplorable about wanting a matchup you actually have a chance of winning.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2017 - 08:35 AM.

[Mechrophilia]

If I was a guild leader in MWO I would not allow my unit to spawn camp a pug team period. The enemy would be at least allowed to corner-shoot from their spawn walls or rush out. And during an event my guys would be expected to show even more class.

On another note, maybe faction play should have its own set of trial 'mechs with more meta-like builds and perhaps 1/3-1/2 of the skill tree filled out.

Edited by Mechrophilia, 31 October 2017 - 08:34 AM.

[Roadbuster]

Khobai, on 30 October 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

groups vs pugs shouldnt even be a thing

there should be two buckets: one for pugs and one for groups

if groups have to wait longer to find a match, too damn bad, but pugs shouldnt suffer for their convenience

With pugs, do you mean only solo players, or also groups created via lfg-function?
Because nobody will ever know if you just drop with some random people you invite in a group or if you drop with skilled friends and good coordination.

I think the only, at least somewhat effective, way is to split solo players and group players. But MM can't really tell if a group is random or highly organized.
I have no real idea how to fix this and improve the quality of matches for everyone. At least not with the limited number of players we have.

One thing PGI could implement would be battlve value of mechs with specific loadouts. So, if people drop with...let's just say, not very effective loadouts, they won't be overpowered just because the enemy team is full of meta loadouts.


One interesting thing is FP with different group sizes and different goals, like scouting...err, I mean "leg shooting trainer".
Instead of forcing small or medium sized groups in a full 12vs12, there could be other game modes with varying player count.

[Khobai]

Quote

With pugs, do you mean only solo players, or also groups created via lfg-function?

solo players.

Quote

I have no real idea how to fix this and improve the quality of matches for everyone. At least not with the limited number of players we have.

two separate buckets for pugs and groups. pugs play pugs. groups play groups.

if theres a half-filled team of pugs and a half-filled team of group players and neither can find a matchup after waiting X minutes (say 5-10 minutes), then a release valve will open and as a last resort matchmaker will initiate a pug vs group matchup. because thats still better than a ghost drop.

and you will also need some provisions to prevent sync dropping in the pug queue. like not allowing players from the same unit to be on the same team in the pug queue. that still wont stop syncdroppers that arnt in the same unit, but theyre less of a concern IMO. its whole units trying to syncdrop together thats mostly the problem. I doubt most people would wanna quit their unit or create another account just to syncdrop.

oh and no more trial mechs allowed in FP to increase the quality of pugs

fixt.

Quote

If I was a guild leader in MWO I would not allow my unit to spawn camp a pug team period

if i was a game developer I wouldnt allow spawn camping in the first place. game design 101

dropships used to have large lasers which had much longer range and actually covered the whole area around the spawn and somewhat discouraged spawn camping. but they downgraded them to medium lasers which allowed spawn camping again.

I mean if dropships had to have medium lasers for some reason, they shouldve come up with another solution to protect the spawn locations. invincible turrets for example.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2017 - 08:58 AM.

[Nightbird]

We tried pugs queue, didn't work since no one queued. You can ask for it but it won't be implemented again.

[Skipmagnet]

There was a reason no one queue'd.

Someone else will have to provide what that reason was. I don't remember.

I know I'd rather not play at all than play in GroupQ/FP, and I doubt I'm alone in that, but that's just me.

[Khobai]

Quote

We tried pugs queue, didn't work since no one queued. You can ask for it but it won't be implemented again.

it worked fine for pugs

they reverted it because groups complained about the excessive wait times

so pgi threw pugs under the bus for the convenience of groups

but also they didnt implement my release valve idea that allows pugs/groups to play as a last resort if neither can find a match after X minutes.

Quote

You can ask for it but it won't be implemented again.

Thats fine. And I also wont be spending money on this game which is also fine.

Everyone who pugs in FP abhors having to play against large groups/units. Im not alone in that regard. And if PGI isnt going to accommodate us with separate buckets, I just wont buy any mechpacks.

There are far more pug players than group/unit players so PGI is ignoring this issue at their own peril.

Edited by Khobai, 31 October 2017 - 09:06 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Armored Yokai, on 30 October 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

From getting certain things removed/nerfed to making faction play un-fun, here are the things why particular units are ruining it for everyone else.A Unit got Knock-down removed because they angered Paul (who is in charge of balance) and back when there was better jump-jets a unit or more would all buy DS Victors and proceed to slap on x2 PPC and 1 AC10 then just jump around like no tomorrow, which caused tons of QQ because people couldn't target them.


When i play FW sometimes I go against 8-12 Unit Drops that just massacre my team by using either the most meta mech they can find or they all use the same mech/build and they just peekaboo laservomit alpha or destroy leg srm rush, soon after they proceed to camp drop-ships and destroy objs until it is 1-10% and just farm the opponents without giving them a chance. The players that are not in a unit just get stomped and they don't deal much damage because they get focused down while securing no cbill prize and they think to themselves "Is this really worth it? I mean I get stomped every game and I can't do anything because i'm getting obliterated as soon as i drop or poke my head out, the game lasts 30 minutes and i only make 100,000-300,000...which i could make much more if i play QP" to top this off, there are times when they will act so arrogant and wave around their Epeen "oh you wouldn't have a chance even if you tried" "GG Easy" "You guys are bad" and when people start running off the map or blowing themselves up they start to call you names and say they will report you for not letting them have more kills to which they already have.

People are getting tired or perhaps are already tired of FP because the games there are toxic and often one-sided....not to mention also annoying to deal with if you get a unit in the opposite drop.

If i was allowed to name and shame the Units I would most certainly do it.

While I don't disagree with some of this and how it can be harrowing to drop into a fp match solo and come up on a 8-12 man group, I fail to see how that is the units fault. As Bandito has mentioned, it compounds when the pre-made is defending, which is easier overall vs attacking. Maybe if the game can deduce a mostly pre-made group from non, it will make the pre-made attacker, as maps or changes to maps to balance attack/defend will happen when pigs fly.
I will confess when we drop against a group of skittles, I have a mixed emotion of elation with a tinge of apathy for the other team for what they are about to go up against. But don't blame us for actually dedicating our time to coordinate(important one) and practice together(another key) so we can be ready for what ever we have to face (warble warble MS).
Maybe force pair 12 man to split to 6 man's and then pad with pugs? That would both assist with population imbalance as well as provide that guiding structure that is so beneficial when being part of a coordinated drop. Yes, you will still have wipes and one sided battles.
Went up against you yesterday, Yokai and yes you were at a disadvantage when dropping against my unit. Another thing us units do, is actively communicate(most important of all) and when we recognize a player of some reputation, we make note of it. Also, what are we supposed to let you do just roll in and blow up Omega? Do you know how many man hours and how much money that gun cost to build? About tree fiddy to be exact.

Join Arc7 bud we are always recruiting and welcome all that have the willingness to be part of a team and just hangout with a bunch of good guys/girls and primarily just about having a good time and enjoying ourselves.

Edited by JackalBeast, 31 October 2017 - 09:06 AM.

[Cox Devalis]

The FP welcoming message needs to be posted here.