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Please Fix The Scouting Imbalance


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#1 GeoSynchronicity

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 09:01 PM

I have been playing a lot of scouting matches as clan due to the recent holiday events. I have tried several mechs as well as many builds, and I can firmly attest that the bushwhacker mech is just plain unfair when you end up in a brawl (which is the only rewarding way to play scouting). Anyone with a head on their shoulders can tell you that 4x55 tons is greater than 4x50 tons when it comes to armor and firepower. I understand how they felt they needed to balance the scouting when the stormcrow was the superpower, but now it just simply switched over to the bushwhacker and so they really just made the problem happen all over again for the other side. If anyone doubts this, just look at the scouting bar when you are waiting for the game to start. The bar is NEVER below 50% for IS, and is usually more than 75%. Something NEEDS to change to help balance scouting. My suggestion: lower the tonnage EQUALLY for both IS and clan to a point where the mechs on either side feel balanced. Perhaps 50 tons for both? Maybe 45 tons? Perhaps even less? Hopefully they already have plans to fix this imbalance issue...

#2 Fake News

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 09:29 PM

bruh.

#3 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 09:50 PM

I understand your frustration, however lemme share with you a screenshot from the loyalist pilot stats, there:
Posted Image



I do not do invasion. These are, with all but a statistically inconsequentially few number of games, generated from scouting matches. Against IS mechs and teams. With Clan mechs.


Scouting is not anywhere near as bleak as you make it seem. It's just that people keep trying to play a different game than what scouting actually is, and get wrecked by those who are actually playing to win the game that actually is what scouting consists of.

Scouting doesn't need a tonnage reduction. Hell, it doesn't need a tonnage increase for the Clans, either. However, it would vastly increase the value of any 55 ton Clan mech released if it could be used in the game mode.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 01 November 2017 - 09:52 PM.


#4 Nighthawk513

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 09:50 PM

Been saying this for months. 50 tons for both.
55 tonners just offer too much armor, firepower, speed, or some combination of the 3 compared to 50 tons and below.

#5 Xavori

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:03 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 01 November 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

I understand your frustration, however lemme share with you a screenshot from the loyalist pilot stats, there:
Posted Image



I do not do invasion. These are, with all but a statistically inconsequentially few number of games, generated from scouting matches. Against IS mechs and teams. With Clan mechs.


Scouting is not anywhere near as bleak as you make it seem. It's just that people keep trying to play a different game than what scouting actually is, and get wrecked by those who are actually playing to win the game that actually is what scouting consists of.

Scouting doesn't need a tonnage reduction. Hell, it doesn't need a tonnage increase for the Clans, either. However, it would vastly increase the value of any 55 ton Clan mech released if it could be used in the game mode.


Except as long as events have minimum scores, and actually doing your job doesn't score, you kinda need to brawl. And right now, IS wins brawls in scouting.

#6 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:05 PM

View PostXavori, on 01 November 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:


Except as long as events have minimum scores, and actually doing your job doesn't score, you kinda need to brawl. And right now, IS wins brawls in scouting.


Actually... if you note? That has a very.. very positive KDR. I got those via brawling.

Against IS mechs.

I do not want to hear excuses, because, frankly, there are none. People fail to work together. Half the time, people do not even hit R to attack weakened legs. They just scatter to the seven winds and smear shots all over the enemy. That isn't how you fight. That isn't how you win. Focus fire as best you can, fire primarily on legs, and go all in - or die one at a time.

#7 The Nerf Bat

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:11 PM

I'm sure PGI will fix the scouting imbalance right after they fix the invasion imbalance.

b.t.w.
Clans won 46% of the scouting matches during the Luthien event.
I.S. won 39% of the invasion matches .during the Luthien event.

Scouting is much better balanced than invasion.

#8 Spheroid

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:18 PM

Really they ALL bring Bushwackers? That has not been by experience in puglandia. Maybe you need to wait the obligatory amount of time to desync from whatever four man was farming you.

I have been murdering people in my Huntsman with zero difficulty.

Edited by Spheroid, 01 November 2017 - 10:45 PM.


#9 C H E E K I E Z

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 10:45 PM

If clan stoped bringing mist MG myst linx/ppc/lrm adders/ERLL cheetas, and lrm hunchbacks, It might be a bit more close. Clan medums/lights can boat almost double the dmg IS can. 8 ERSM 4x MG nova, 6 srm6 huntsman, 8 MPL hunchie, 2ppc/8ERSM hunchie. 2x lb20 hunchie all boat waaaaaaaaaaaaay more dmg than anything in IS can. IDC if you bring a hunchie 4SP, or buschwacker, your legs are gone in 1-2 alpha's from any of those mechs.

Like 99.9999999999999999% of arguement on these fourms. Its the person driving the mech, and the person who built the mech, not the Tech of the mech.

TL;DR GIT GUD

#10 Hanky Spam

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 11:53 PM

There is no imbalance tbh.
IS simply needs 5 tons more for most loadouts which a clan mech would usually carry.
Most things (weapons, engines, BAPs etc) consumes more slots and/or weights more than the clan counterparts.

btw, I was doing my scouting matches in a WLF-2 and Bushwackys and had very good matches with both against the clan scouting meta mechs (streak boats, lbx boats, laser boats)....

Just learn to not bring LRMs, always target critical components like legs or the rear, communicate with your team and youl'll be fine...

#11 Fuerchtenichts

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 12:48 AM

There is no scouting imbalance. There is just a team play, personal skill & build know how difference among the players.

Btw. the current Clan vs Clan event offers a certain ARMA flavour to the game because of high alphas and low armor of Clan mechs. Posted Image

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 02 November 2017 - 12:54 AM.


#12 Daggett

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 01:16 AM

I'm playing the Bushwacker in scouting and while it is very strong, all it's armor and great hitboxes do not matter if you go for it's legs. I have the most problems with laser-spam Novas which can easily strip the entire armor of one leg with the first alpha. The same is true for the Crab which can also tank for days if you don't sweep it's legs.

In my opinion the Nova is a worthy contender, it's all about exploiting the enemies weaknesses.

#13 Dee Eight

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 02:22 AM

The problem ISN'T bushwackers or griffins or assassins or whatever else IS mechs are being brought. The problem is people who assume clan = auto win and thus put no plan into tactics or playing smart and then forum whine when they repeatedly lose for their own fault.

Like that fellow on the weekend I mentioned in another thread who brought an ALL LRM20 hunchback 2. That would be a shining example of playing the exact opposite of smart in a scouting match. Or the many players who bring ONLY streak builds, or only ATMs...when there are so many IS viable mechs with ECM. The griffin 2Ns especially. A light 280 engine, quad SRM battery and a couple flamers. Agile enough to handle hunchbacks, novas and huntsman, with a heavy alpha and the ability to shut down dumb clan players easily. ATM's are useless under 120 meters. Streaks won't fire at all without a lock which you cannot get while face hugging an ECM mech (or being face hugged by multiple ECM mechs).

Its all fine and good to bring streaks ALONG with something else. My huntsman hero which I was win about 80% of my scout matches with is 4 streak-4s, an AMS, and 3 medium pulse lasers. But another way to go is with 3 streak 6s and 5 small pulse lasers. Wherever you can get the crosshairs of unlocked arms the streaks will be able to go also. Take a HMN Prime, swap to the B right arm and C left torso. Add the lower arm actuators. 3 SPL and 2 DHS in right arm, 2 SPL, Streak-6 and 2 tons of ammo left arm, streak 6 and DHS in left and right torso, active probe and TC1 in torsos, and 1 ton of ammo in each leg. Armor full everywhere but legs (42 per). A third way to go also using Cbills build is the HMN-C and install the P arm pods. 4 SRM6s in the arms with lower actuators, 3 tons of ammo, and 3 DHS. 2 Streak 6s in the side torsos, 2.5 tons of ammo, LAP, 3 HSLs (or 3 ERSLs). 1.5 tons of additional SRM missile ammo in the legs. Fills every crit and ton (again with 42 pts of armor per leg).

In other words... don't just rely on a single range band that you can engage the target in, which is often THEIR preferred range band or a single weapon system which can be easily countered. Clan weapons have greater optimal ranges... USE THAT ADVANTAGE. I saw a fellow with a twin LB20 Hunchie2C on the weekend, which seems awesome as long as you willfully ignore the fact a pair of LB10s have better heat, range, tonnage, not to mention ammo damage per ton. That twin LB20 hunchie only had 5 tons of ammo and he hasn't invested in the ammo skills. So that's a maximum 700 damage if EVERY pellet hits the target. 5 tons of LB10 ammo even without skill nodes is 1000 damage, with a smaller spread. Also because that hunchie put everything into the LB20s...he had nothing left over in case his ammo went dry, or to shoot while waiting the 4 seconds for his cannons to cool down. And he wouldn't be full armor either. Nevermind unarmored arms issue... but the legs would be under spec also. Not if you ran enough engine to be viable in scouting (a 255XL for example).

Edited by Dee Eight, 02 November 2017 - 02:23 AM.


#14 TWIAFU

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:10 AM

View PostDee Eight, on 02 November 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

The problem ISN'T bushwackers or griffins or assassins or whatever else IS mechs are being brought. The problem is people who assume clan = auto win and thus put no plan into tactics or playing smart and then forum whine when they repeatedly lose for their own fault.



QFT.

The easier button clans provide falls apart when the pilots can't pilot.

Heavy reliance on a crutch to carry leads to the OP.

#15 Jun Watarase

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:16 AM

Ignoring what faction you are with, would you guys prefer to use a bushwacker or huntsman/HBK in scouting?

Personally? Not even a contest, bushwacker.

#16 Nightbird

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 06:32 AM

If invasion became balanced maybe. Until then I don't see it. No, they will not be balanced independently.

#17 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 07:10 AM

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
~Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Many pilots (perhaps more on the Clan side these days) don't realize this, nor act on this wisdom. Do you know what your most likely enemy (various IS 55 tonners) can and cannot do? Do you know what your mech can and cannot do? Do you know what the possible counters are to your mech and/or strategy? What have you done to mitigate those possible counters?

The IS is on to something (which is successful) with what they are running vs. certain Clan mechs and strategies. While I would be glad to see the Crow back, I don't think it's a game changer vs. what a lot of IS pilots are doing these days. It's not magicial to beat the IS. An easy way to beat the IS make them do something they are not good at and that Clans are...simple as that. We scouted in late NA cycle last night (not losing a match) and drove the scouting bar from the IS almost having sensor jam to the Clans having Radar Sweep in like 2 hours. If you are struggling, drop with people who can show you how to win consistently and try to learn how to do it.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 02 November 2017 - 07:12 AM.


#18 latinisator

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 07:55 AM

View PostDee Eight, on 02 November 2017 - 02:22 AM, said:

I saw a fellow with a twin LB20 Hunchie2C on the weekend, which seems awesome as long as you willfully ignore the fact a pair of LB10s have better heat, range, tonnage, not to mention ammo damage per ton. That twin LB20 hunchie only had 5 tons of ammo and he hasn't invested in the ammo skills. So that's a maximum 700 damage if EVERY pellet hits the target. 5 tons of LB10 ammo even without skill nodes is 1000 damage, with a smaller spread. Also because that hunchie put everything into the LB20s...he had nothing left over in case his ammo went dry, or to shoot while waiting the 4 seconds for his cannons to cool down. And he wouldn't be full armor either. Nevermind unarmored arms issue... but the legs would be under spec also. Not if you ran enough engine to be viable in scouting (a 255XL for example).

Hm, so you are insulting my Hunchie? LB 40 to your face. ;)
You can preach the blessing of LB 10s all day long, the fact is that atm the brawl will come. Then, imho, raw fire power and aiming (legs, legs, legs) wins the game. Dealing as much damage in as little time as possible. Also XL 255 is viable? For your playstyle maybe. I run a XL 245 and its fast enough (speed tweak).
But yeah, the ammo nodes are mandatory. I ran out of ammo once. Else, there were always some shots left (4 to 6 at most times).

View PostMarquis De Lafayette, on 02 November 2017 - 07:10 AM, said:

While I would be glad to see the Crow back, I don't think it's a game changer vs. what a lot of IS pilots are doing these days.

Me too! I think, however, taht the Crow never was as OP as many claimed. One word: legs.

#19 Xavori

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 08:04 AM

View PostDaggett, on 02 November 2017 - 01:16 AM, said:

I'm playing the Bushwacker in scouting and while it is very strong, all it's armor and great hitboxes do not matter if you go for it's legs. I have the most problems with laser-spam Novas which can easily strip the entire armor of one leg with the first alpha. The same is true for the Crab which can also tank for days if you don't sweep it's legs.

In my opinion the Nova is a worthy contender, it's all about exploiting the enemies weaknesses.


Take a Bushwacker with dual RAC-5's and start chopping legs out from people (I do this in quickplay with my X1). You win.

And honestly, giving Clans back the Stormcrow won't fix that because the Crow is just bigger, easier to shoot legs with less firepower than the Huntsman.

Bushwacker legs 59 armor / 26 Structure
Stormcrow legs 52 armor / 26 Structure
Huntsman legs 48 armor / 24 Structure

Top firepower
Bushwacker (2xRAC5) 109
Stormcrow (5xSSRM6 1xERLL) 71
Huntsman (6xSSRM6 2xSSRM4) 88

Want to tell me again how scouting is balanced? Posted Image

#20 Xavori

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 08:12 AM

Oh, and the dual RAC-5 Bushwacker also looks seriously badass with the mini-gun barrels sticking out along both sides of its nose. Posted Image





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