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Please Fix The Scouting Imbalance


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#41 Slambot

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:08 AM

My position is this... The game is not balanced. Clan systems still provide a definite advantage for clan machines. Clans tend to lose a bit more at scouting.... IS never wins a planet. They may defend some, but they almost never take one from the clans. So, what do you propose here? No IS vs clan event has ever ended up favorably for the IS, even with a substantial advantage in reward for the IS (mauler vs mist lynx) Tukayyid has always been won by the clans and luthien was dominated by the clans from the get go. The IS barely held off a successful invasion with an 11th hour push by coordinated IS units.

So what I would like is for people to actually submit options that won't just end up with the clans dominating both scouting and invasion.

I would also like to see the game balance system by system so that we can get rid of the quirk system for most mechs. There has to be some advantage for each side for each mech system based on an overall design philosophy. For example, clans focus on range and hitting power,while inner sphere gets sustained dps and durability.

I appreciate the value of lore, but this is a video game. As such, when you have two competing sides each has to have its own advantages in disadvantages. One side can't simply have the best of everything. I'll believe the game is truly balanced when I see 50% IS mechs used during world championship events instead of 15%.

#42 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 08:50 AM

Steel Viper vs Jade Flacon, scouting bar also maxed. The number of LRM mechs I've seen in scouting vs Clans really explains to me why Clans lose scouting.

#43 Wolfways

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 09:22 AM

Game mode favours brawling.
Most maps favour brawling.
IS mechs are generally better for brawling.
IS get up to 20tons more than clans.

Nope, I can't figure out why clans are losing brawl...er I mean, scouting mode...

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#44 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 10:43 AM

View PostWolfways, on 05 November 2017 - 09:22 AM, said:

Game mode favours brawling.
Most maps favour brawling.
IS mechs are generally better for brawling.
IS get up to 20tons more than clans.

Nope, I can't figure out why clans are losing brawl...er I mean, scouting mode...

Posted Image


Odd. Because we've had no issue out-brawling anyone in Clan mechs (dat Nova, MPL HBK, boated MGs, SRM Huntsman) and on maps with long sightlines taking 2 HLLs and 2 CERMLs on an HBK or Huntsman is all leg-popping goodness all the time, every day.

Works against IS and Clans. Adjust build/mech/strat to the map. Clan mechs are faster, carry more firepower and better cooling and that's what drives wins in brawling. We lose because I see people taking LRMs regularly or terribad ERLL builds, streaks and all manner of bad mechs and then losing when the other team turns out to not be even more incompetent.

#45 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 10:44 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 05 November 2017 - 08:50 AM, said:

Steel Viper vs Jade Flacon, scouting bar also maxed. The number of LRM mechs I've seen in scouting vs Clans really explains to me why Clans lose scouting.


Like I said... Maybe the great scouting imbalance isn't the tech so much as the player. Otherwise results like what you are seeing and what I saw in the CGBvsCNC fights would have no excuse for being so lopsided. (https://pbs.twimg.co...8VTWkAA5w6h.jpg)

I do not play Invasion enough to claim an in depth knowledge of what causes the seemingly landslide win rates. However, it is worth noting in every time period where the big units shifted to the IS, the IS consistently dominated. This would indicate that, at the very least, coordination and communication goes a lot farther than technology base.

#46 Wolfways

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 10:56 AM

View PostMischiefSC, on 05 November 2017 - 10:43 AM, said:


Odd. Because we've had no issue out-brawling anyone in Clan mechs (dat Nova, MPL HBK, boated MGs, SRM Huntsman) and on maps with long sightlines taking 2 HLLs and 2 CERMLs on an HBK or Huntsman is all leg-popping goodness all the time, every day.

Works against IS and Clans. Adjust build/mech/strat to the map. Clan mechs are faster, carry more firepower and better cooling and that's what drives wins in brawling. We lose because I see people taking LRMs regularly or terribad ERLL builds, streaks and all manner of bad mechs and then losing when the other team turns out to not be even more incompetent.

In my experience many clan mechs are killed while they are shutdown from overheating, which is something IS mechs have no problem with.
Also, clan mechs may have better cooling but their weapons are hotter. I've found that clan mechs cannot carry as much firepower as IS mechs because I need to cram in as many DHS as possible.
Eventually I just thought screw it and went back to playing the "almost-stock mechs" that I enjoy (or try to enjoy on clan side).

I never see anyone using LRM's in scouting mode...unless it's me. I have used them a couple of times and it worked out well.

#47 Spheroid

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 11:23 AM

@Wolfways: Your experience is not the norm. The problem is your tactics and builds.

If you perceive a systemic imbalance feel free to switch sides. FP is meaningless in current iteration. Are you self-torturing yourself out of some misguided fidelity to Clan Wolf? The year is 3057+, any portion of what was cool about the Wolves was burned away in the Refusal War. Go merc and stop being a complainer.

You bring your nonsense non-brawler builds to I.S. you are still going to lose(badly). Also why are you having heat problems? You know you can double coolshot right?

#48 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 11:39 AM

View PostSpheroid, on 05 November 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

@Wolfways: Your experience is not the norm. The problem is your tactics and builds.

If you perceive a systemic imbalance feel free to switch sides. FP is meaningless in current iteration. Are you self-torturing yourself out of some misguided fidelity to Clan Wolf? The year is 3057+, any portion of what was cool about the Wolves was burned away in the Refusal War. Go merc and stop being a complainer.

You bring your nonsense non-brawler builds to I.S. you are still going to lose(badly). Also why are you having heat problems? You know you can double coolshot right?


Honestly don't need more than one coolshot, and that is a luxury as is. Heat management is a thing. As a Clan mech, expect to be redlining past the initial engagement. Managing your output during the fight is just practice.

Unless you're on Terra Therma. In which case simply jump jetting generates heat. Lots of it. Because reasons. Hate that map for that reason. Seen enemies, allies, and myself self-detonate from jump jet induced heat on that map. XD

#49 Spheroid

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 11:43 AM

I never run double myself. Just pointing out it is an option. Heat problems point to bad builds or poor fire discipline.

Edited by Spheroid, 05 November 2017 - 11:49 AM.


#50 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 03:39 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 05 November 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:


Like I said... Maybe the great scouting imbalance isn't the tech so much as the player. Otherwise results like what you are seeing and what I saw in the CGBvsCNC fights would have no excuse for being so lopsided. (https://pbs.twimg.co...8VTWkAA5w6h.jpg)

I do not play Invasion enough to claim an in depth knowledge of what causes the seemingly landslide win rates. However, it is worth noting in every time period where the big units shifted to the IS, the IS consistently dominated. This would indicate that, at the very least, coordination and communication goes a lot farther than technology base.


Without question skill is the biggest factor. That was the case even when Clan mechs were originally released as OP AF. It was still more of a skill matter. For that matter you or I could easily kill a new player in the best meta mech while we were in a trial mech with single heatsinks -

which doesn't make those two even or mean that one is just as good as the other.

Bad balance is bad. Yes, skill is more important than almost any balance factor but balance is still important.

#51 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 05:44 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 05 November 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:


Without question skill is the biggest factor. That was the case even when Clan mechs were originally released as OP AF. It was still more of a skill matter. For that matter you or I could easily kill a new player in the best meta mech while we were in a trial mech with single heatsinks -

which doesn't make those two even or mean that one is just as good as the other.

Bad balance is bad. Yes, skill is more important than almost any balance factor but balance is still important.


The problem is, due to disparity of skill, it makes it rather difficult to quantify just how imbalanced things are, or are not. Which makes things like that screenshot I posted interesting to look at. Technology is perfectly balanced, yet the result is overwhelmingly onesided control of the bar. Clearly, in this case, skill is the defining factor here, yet how does that translate to Clan vs IS encounters where the technology is not perfectly equal?

Aside from the issue where perfectly different but equal status is virtually impossible to attain, it means that skill swings harder than tech. And as long as there is no way to compare exact like for like, skill wise, with the different techs, how much better is one techline than another? How can you adequately balance for technology when, in practice, skill differentials make the difference time and time again to such a degree that it obfuscates things?

We could, for all we know, only have a 2% imbalance in the game as far clan vs IS tech is concerned. As a total package, that is. If it is 2%, then that is incredibly good. However, we'd have no way to actually test that. Not without equal skilled opponents playing to their tech's strengths against one another. Hell, skill might even be swinging the "perceived imbalance" in the exact opposite direction of what we'd expect based on the tech. I'm not saying that's the case, but that's the sort of inability to be objective due to historical results when the community flipflopped between sides. It could be 0% imbalance and there'd still be an overwhelming winner, given how all the community's skill has a bad habit of switching sides at the same time, every time.

Organization and skilled pilots have always swung harder than the tech. By leagues harder. So how much, really, is the disparity between clan and IS tech? I... don't know how you can legitimately answer that right now. Only because skill and teamwork consistently overwhelm any degree of balancing that might exist between the techs.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 05 November 2017 - 05:47 PM.


#52 Cato Zilks

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 07:08 PM

View PostDakota1000, on 02 November 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:


Difference between then and now is that Griffin 2n was mathematically balanced with the Stormcrow and most people were just whining about streakcrows instead of the ASRM based ones or SPL builds.

What the litteral **** are you talking about. The Griffin is less agile, its equipment is bulkier, its equipment weighs more, its heatsinks are 50% larger, its hitboxes are much worse, is limited by crap IS XLs, limited by crap IS Ferro, limited by crap IS endo, and its builds are limited hardpoint inflexibility. How in god's name do you think that "Griffin 2n was mathematically balanced with the Stormcrow"?!?!?!

The reason people aim at the legs on a storm crow isn't because their legs are that much easier than other mechs (they are much skinnier than many IS 55t legs) its that the legs are the easiest part to hit on the Scrow because its torso boxes are small and oddly shaped allowing for good damage spread.

Posted Image

Posted Image
You sir have said the dumbest thing I have seen in these forums for weeks.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 05 November 2017 - 08:54 PM.


#53 MischiefSC

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 07:42 PM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 05 November 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:


The problem is, due to disparity of skill, it makes it rather difficult to quantify just how imbalanced things are, or are not. Which makes things like that screenshot I posted interesting to look at. Technology is perfectly balanced, yet the result is overwhelmingly onesided control of the bar. Clearly, in this case, skill is the defining factor here, yet how does that translate to Clan vs IS encounters where the technology is not perfectly equal?

Aside from the issue where perfectly different but equal status is virtually impossible to attain, it means that skill swings harder than tech. And as long as there is no way to compare exact like for like, skill wise, with the different techs, how much better is one techline than another? How can you adequately balance for technology when, in practice, skill differentials make the difference time and time again to such a degree that it obfuscates things?

We could, for all we know, only have a 2% imbalance in the game as far clan vs IS tech is concerned. As a total package, that is. If it is 2%, then that is incredibly good. However, we'd have no way to actually test that. Not without equal skilled opponents playing to their tech's strengths against one another. Hell, skill might even be swinging the "perceived imbalance" in the exact opposite direction of what we'd expect based on the tech. I'm not saying that's the case, but that's the sort of inability to be objective due to historical results when the community flipflopped between sides. It could be 0% imbalance and there'd still be an overwhelming winner, given how all the community's skill has a bad habit of switching sides at the same time, every time.

Organization and skilled pilots have always swung harder than the tech. By leagues harder. So how much, really, is the disparity between clan and IS tech? I... don't know how you can legitimately answer that right now. Only because skill and teamwork consistently overwhelm any degree of balancing that might exist between the techs.


So comp play has a lot of value for that. Because everyone is playing at a very high skill level it minimizes variance between player skill and highlights variance in tech.

Also the straight math of mech performance isn't hard to figure. For example the whole 2 HLL, 6 cerml doing more damage/tic, more range, bigger alpha than any IS options. Which stacks with smaller, more numerous DHS and CXL to give better heat management.

The issues with CXL, cend/cff, etc. isn't hard to identify either.

There's some clear balance issues that need addressed. Balance is always a moving target but it needs to be in the crosshairs.

#54 Rick T Dangerous

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 07:57 PM

View PostThe Nerf Bat, on 01 November 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

I'm sure PGI will fix the scouting imbalance right after they fix the invasion imbalance.



Pst! The latest shtick is to say that invasion does not reflect the balance issue. So stick to the script, please.

#55 Commander A9

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 08:05 PM

No one was willing to play Invasion with us tonight.

Event "successful." Right...

#56 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 09:18 PM

View PostCato Zilks, on 05 November 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

What the litteral **** are you talking about. The Griffin is less agile, its equipment is bulkier, its equipment weighs more, its heatsinks are 50% larger, its hitboxes are much worse, is limited by crap IS XLs, limited by crap IS Ferro, limited by crap IS endo, and its builds are limited hardpoint inflexibility. How in god's name do you think that "Griffin 2n was mathematically balanced with the Stormcrow"?!?!?!

The reason people aim at the legs on a storm crow isn't because their legs are that much easier than other mechs (they are much skinnier than many IS 55t legs) its that the legs are the easiest part to hit on the Scrow because its torso boxes are small and oddly shaped allowing for good damage spread.

Posted Image

Posted Image
You sir have said the dumbest thing I have seen in these forums for weeks.


Even with the bulkier and heavier equipment it still could run quad ASRM6 just fine and had tankier legs due to the structure quirks on the legs, Stormcrow had higher raw damage output and speed, Griffin had better precision and defense. It generally lead to both mechs being pretty much equal to each other in fights. Build flexibility isn't a good thing if inflexibility forces you into one good meta build, build flexibility usually results in people running more mixed builds on things that aren't as effective.

Also the Stormcrow's legs from the side are huge while they are only about 20% smaller than the thickest section of the Griffin's leg frontally.

#57 Fuerchtenichts

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 10:37 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 05 November 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:


So comp play has a lot of value for that. Because everyone is playing at a very high skill level it minimizes variance between player skill and highlights variance in tech.

Also the straight math of mech performance isn't hard to figure. For example the whole 2 HLL, 6 cerml doing more damage/tic, more range, bigger alpha than any IS options. Which stacks with smaller, more numerous DHS and CXL to give better heat management.

The issues with CXL, cend/cff, etc. isn't hard to identify either.

There's some clear balance issues that need addressed. Balance is always a moving target but it needs to be in the crosshairs.


That is why the comp community has its own game mode where they can use all chassis. But this discussion is about FP. If you want people to get better results they should invest time in training their personal skills and their team play. I don't see a scouting mech configuration that can't be beaten at the moment.

My estimated root causes for FP success/failure:
Team play 60%
Personal skill 30%
Tech balance 10%

If you want to improve start with the 90% and not with the last 10% .

Edited by Fuerchtenichts, 05 November 2017 - 10:51 PM.


#58 DevlinCognito

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 01:56 AM

The recent event has given IS the chance to face other IS Scout groups and it was glorious! No one complaining about the Tech imbalance, no whining about 'OP quirks' or 'Clantech eazy mode', it was so refreshing (if shortlived).

A properly built Clan Scout Lance has zero problems fighting the IS. Personally I believe dropping Clans to 50 tonnes was a huge advantage for them, stopping players from bringing dumb Skill-crows and pushing them into Novas that (if the pilot can aim) eat Griffins and Bushies for breakfast.

Shoot legs

Yes it's less damage to go straight through the CT, but accept the enemy pilot may be able to shield and take the legs and Bushies die fast with 4 Mechs shooting them. The *ahem*... 'huge OP tanking quirks'... *ahem* don't mean a damned thing when you have a 4 extra 4 small pulse on the Huntsman over the Griffin or you can get all your small Lasers on the Bushies legs in your Nova. However if you bring ATMs, Crit-lynx, ER-medium Novas or LRM Hunchies don't complain when you get outbrawled by real brawling Mechs.

#59 PFC Carsten

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 03:28 AM

If you brawl in an ERML Nova, then you are doing it wrong. Shoot legs from a distance, then keep distance, win.

#60 TWIAFU

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 04:55 AM

View PostSlambot, on 05 November 2017 - 05:08 AM, said:

Clan systems still provide a definite advantage for clan machines. Clans tend to lose a bit more at scouting.... IS never wins a planet. They may defend some, but they almost never take one from the clans. So, what do you propose here? No IS vs clan event has ever ended up favorably for the IS, even with a substantial advantage in reward for the IS (mauler vs mist lynx) n.



All of this is well known and established as fact.

The problem is, when IS does begin to win, heaven forbid take a planet, immediate calls for IS to be nerf'd.

It is as if Clans assume they are going to win even before the dropship bays open. They fall back on the Clan Crutch like that alone will carry them.

When players refuse to allow Clans to use the crutch, they get all pissy and demand that IS nerf'd further, generating more imbalance.





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