153 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Charles Sennet, on 07 November 2017 - 02:11 PM, said:

As it now broken in favor of IS.... there simply is little justification for durability quirks and 20 tons more (4 pilots x 5 tons). Sadly though bringing back 5 tons for Clans won't fix the issue as the SCR's cannot stand up to BSW's as they are currently constituted in-game.

You can kill a BSW by legging it. It's got 7 extra armor in each leg. 7. That's it. Shoot him at range or dance him a bit.

Run a Laservomit HBK IIC, Run a SCat with 2 HLLs and 6 LMGs. Peel the legs armor at range with something faster. Scout effectively before you engage.

It's also mostly torso weapons, take a Huntsman with 4xSRM6A, 2 MPLs and 2 HSMls for a 75 pt alpha and stay jumpy.

I have 0 issue with BSWs. Assassins? Those are a problem.

Use range, use speed. If brawling focus fire and keep high alphas - if you're focusing fire then DPS becomes irrelevant compared to alpha - the point is that you're killing 1 or 2 enemies before a higher sustained DPS becomes relevant.

Dakota1000, on 07 November 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

I've done a lot of math between the builds that shows the Bushwacker just being better and also had many fights against the Nova with the Bushwacker, even in more controlled 1v1 situations, the Bushwacker just makes the Nova look weak in comparison.

I remember playing the 12 CSPL Nova back when the lasers all did 6 damage each and you had 2 DPS per laser, that's back when it was decent and would have had a chance against the Bushwacker. But this piddly 4 damage per laser and 1.6 DPS just doesn't cut it.

With 165m optimal range its really going to have problems when the Bushwacker can go and get in a free alpha due to range while having an alpha's worth of extra armor sitting around while having a free alpha of damage from the rocket launchers. That's like 3 free alphas it has over you and it only takes 2 to remove a leg, except for you actually, those CSPLs only have 48 damage per alpha, two of them leaves the bushwacker with 9 health left on the leg.

You run 12 ERSMLs and 4 LMGs. For scouting 1 or 1.5 tons of ammo is enough. It makes up the 9 health for the leg.

Jumping is also a huge component people ignore. As a team you play rope a dope; you all focus fire the same guy, right? legging. Whatever person he shoots.... jumps. He loses a firing cycle or three switching targets while the guy jumping switches before he hits the ground, assuming his 3 teammates will finish guy 1.

Teamwork OP I know but Clans also have range and mobility on IS. 7 extra armor on each leg really, really isn't enough to swing a win in team v team.

Run 2 mechs with more range oriented weapons, 2 people in Vipers or Scats (or one of each). You can also do 2 brawling Huntsmen and 2x the HLL/LMG Scats. Stay tight, get early hits on legs with the lasers outside brawling range. You'll eliminate their armor advantage before they even get a shot off.

The return of the Scrow wouldn't really impact us at all. We've got better choices now and the SPLs that made the Scrow strong are no longer worth it.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 07 November 2017 - 07:28 PM, said:

You run 12 ERSMLs and 4 LMGs. For scouting 1 or 1.5 tons of ammo is enough. It makes up the 9 health for the leg.

Jumping is also a huge component people ignore. As a team you play rope a dope; you all focus fire the same guy, right? legging. Whatever person he shoots.... jumps. He loses a firing cycle or three switching targets while the guy jumping switches before he hits the ground, assuming his 3 teammates will finish guy 1.

Teamwork OP I know but Clans also have range and mobility on IS. 7 extra armor on each leg really, really isn't enough to swing a win in team v team.

Run 2 mechs with more range oriented weapons, 2 people in Vipers or Scats (or one of each). You can also do 2 brawling Huntsmen and 2x the HLL/LMG Scats. Stay tight, get early hits on legs with the lasers outside brawling range. You'll eliminate their armor advantage before they even get a shot off.

The return of the Scrow wouldn't really impact us at all. We've got better choices now and the SPLs that made the Scrow strong are no longer worth it.

The stay ranged thing does work out just as long as you don't get ambushed or the enemy doesn't use much cover, if they pop out at you at around 300m you're doomed if two of the mechs are sitting there with HLL though, seems pretty dicey.

I also don't understand the jumping thing. Jumping just makes your legs an even easier to hit target moving slowly through the air. Do other people actually have trouble tracking that? I know the last Nova who tried doing that to me really must have been surprised. Are my years of playing Tribes 2 finally paying off?

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 07 November 2017 - 08:14 PM, said:

The stay ranged thing does work out just as long as you don't get ambushed or the enemy doesn't use much cover, if they pop out at you at around 300m you're doomed if two of the mechs are sitting there with HLL though, seems pretty dicey.

I also don't understand the jumping thing. Jumping just makes your legs an even easier to hit target moving slowly through the air. Do other people actually have trouble tracking that? I know the last Nova who tried doing that to me really must have been surprised. Are my years of playing Tribes 2 finally paying off?

You get 10m away from the Bushie and.... BOING. Toros hardpoints on Bushie, Griffin and Cent can't deflect up. Nova can go almost 4 full mech heights into the air.

You only need to worry about your legs getting picked is if your teammates didn't manage to kill the guy while he's ignoring them and trying to set up for you when you land. If that's the case then you're ****** anyway.

Range is *easy* on literally any of the Scout maps. Grab 4-6, get a position with long sight lines and have one of your 2 fast guys scout. Bonus points if he squirrels them right back into a firing line.

If we did Scouting on Mining Collective that would be one thing. It's all Frozen, Portico, Polar, Terra Therma. It's often harder to set an ambush than it is to avoid one.

[Bishop Six]

Hell no! There is a Clanner pug who lost some matches....nerf IS!!!

Ok just joking...Bushwacker is good yes, but he is really not OP. Turn Rate isnt the best, most weapons in side torsi or arms and dont forget the "boxes" in side torsi if you put a missile weapon on it.

IMO the problem is that most Clanners are not flexible with their builds. I see so many Clanners bringing their typical Long Range builds, even ATMS, LRMS and PPCs.

My Bushi is straight brawling with SRMs and MGs. So what could be the reason that we CAN win scouting matches which are always Brawls in the end?

[Pariah Devalis]

For giggles, I stepped outside my established effective playbook ROE the other night. Brought MPlas builds and ATM builds, while the rest of the team took normal, brawly scouters. A couple notes:

It's hilarious how disruptive ATM can be if your enemy sees what you have. If they're smart, they will try and push on you, hard, to get under your minimum range. OTOH, that usually lead to the IS team having two mechs completely ignoring the rest of my team, who would gleefully tear them open from behind as I kited them backwards. Frustratingly, however, ATM seems oddly... inconsistent. Not sure if it was HSR related or not, but there were times where a salvo of 24 ATM would completely wreck someone's armor, and there were times when that same salvo would barely dent it. All under 300 meters. Not entirely sure what was up with that.

A 6x MPLas config was another direction I took. If I could secure LOS on an enemy at 500 meters, I could preemptively tear open armor in places my teammates could exploit for far easier kills. However, the heat curve of the mech was just too high when and if it was pushed upon. Once the enemy brawlers got to me, the capabilities were mismatched tremendously.

In both cases, the ATM and MPLas config was great at being disruptive, however it was at the expense of personal survivability and effectiveness. Essentially, it traded my personal ability to finish people off and survive for my teammates'. I'd take the risk, and they'd get the reward.

All in all, I still find SRM brawling more effective. My ASRM6 hunger. Just go for those tasty leg meats. :3 That way, we all can knife fight, and none of us are in any sort of disadvantage. Also, lets me lead from the front, which I am wont to do. Not like I do not normally take on the lion's share of the risk.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 08 November 2017 - 06:28 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 November 2017 - 06:25 AM, said:

For giggles, I stepped outside my established effective playbook ROE the other night. Brought MPlas builds and ATM builds, while the rest of the team took normal, brawly scouters. A couple notes:

It's hilarious how disruptive ATM can be if your enemy sees what you have. If they're smart, they will try and push on you, hard, to get under your minimum range. OTOH, that usually lead to the IS team having two mechs completely ignoring the rest of my team, who would gleefully tear them open from behind as I kited them backwards. Frustratingly, however, ATM seems oddly... inconsistent. Not sure if it was HSR related or not, but there were times where a salvo of 24 ATM would completely wreck someone's armor, and there were times when that same salvo would barely dent it. All under 300 meters. Not entirely sure what was up with that.

A 6x MPLas config was another direction I took. If I could secure LOS on an enemy at 500 meters, I could preemptively tear open armor in places my teammates could exploit for far easier kills. However, the heat curve of the mech was just too high when and if it was pushed upon. Once the enemy brawlers got to me, the capabilities were mismatched tremendously.

In both cases, the ATM and MPLas config was great at being disruptive, however it was at the expense of personal survivability and effectiveness. Essentially, it traded my personal ability to finish people off and survive for my teammates'. I'd take the risk, and they'd get the reward.

All in all, I still find SRM brawling more effective. My ASRM6 hunger. Just go for those tasty leg meats. :3 That way, we all can knife fight, and none of us are in any sort of disadvantage. Also, lets me lead from the front, which I am wont to do. Not like I do not normally take on the lion's share of the risk.

6mpls sounds iffy on anything but a medium that's going to be poking. 9 MPLs on an EBJ or MAD IIC however is cool and very good at brawling. 5 on the left, 4 on the right. Even with the 0.5 split it's about the same burn time as cermls.

ATMs are feast/famine, as missiles often are. However 3x9 plus an LBX/UAC something like an Orion IIC and a couple of lasers is ferocious in the sweet spot for range.

[Pariah Devalis]

MischiefSC, on 08 November 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

6mpls sounds iffy on anything but a medium that's going to be poking. 9 MPLs on an EBJ or MAD IIC however is cool and very good at brawling. 5 on the left, 4 on the right. Even with the 0.5 split it's about the same burn time as cermls.

ATMs are feast/famine, as missiles often are. However 3x9 plus an LBX/UAC something like an Orion IIC and a couple of lasers is ferocious in the sweet spot for range.

This is scouting.

I am not fitting assaults and heavies into a scout deck.

[MischiefSC]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 November 2017 - 11:52 AM, said:

This is scouting.

I am not fitting assaults and heavies into a scout deck.

My bad.

Try 2 hlls, 2cermls on an HBK. 50 is a magic number vs mediums.

[Pariah Devalis]

MischiefSC, on 08 November 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

My bad.

Try 2 hlls, 2cermls on an HBK. 50 is a magic number vs mediums.

Higher heat gen, lower damage per tick, and a lower dps. Honestly, 6xmplas is probably the safest nonstandard bet. Even so, as I confirmed through doing, full brawlfit is still king in scouting. Plus, the swirl of a face to face brawl is exciting.

[MischiefSC]

Pariah Devalis, on 08 November 2017 - 12:04 PM, said:

Higher heat gen, lower damage per tick, and a lower dps. Honestly, 6xmplas is probably the safest nonstandard bet. Even so, as I confirmed through doing, full brawlfit is still king in scouting. Plus, the swirl of a face to face brawl is exciting.

We ran almost 30 back to back wins with 2x range (hll/cerml) and 2 fast/brawl mechs.

Scouts find them, draw aggro. Range hits a leg at 400m. 100 damage, leg gone. That guy is boned. 4 v 3 the rest, then finish gimpy.

Also 2 hll, 6lmg Scats plus a couple of Huntsmen for the same thing.

You literally only need 1 hit at range to turn the fight into a roll - 100 damage done before the other side has 1 shot fired. That more than bridges the gap in lost dps.

[Grus]

Dakota1000, on 07 November 2017 - 07:04 PM, said:

I've done a lot of math between the builds that shows the Bushwacker just being better and also had many fights against the Nova with the Bushwacker, even in more controlled 1v1 situations, the Bushwacker just makes the Nova look weak in comparison.

I remember playing the 12 CSPL Nova back when the lasers all did 6 damage each and you had 2 DPS per laser, that's back when it was decent and would have had a chance against the Bushwacker. But this piddly 4 damage per laser and 1.6 DPS just doesn't cut it.

With 165m optimal range its really going to have problems when the Bushwacker can go and get in a free alpha due to range while having an alpha's worth of extra armor sitting around while having a free alpha of damage from the rocket launchers. That's like 3 free alphas it has over you and it only takes 2 to remove a leg, except for you actually, those CSPLs only have 48 damage per alpha, two of them leaves the bushwacker with 9 health left on the leg.

I've gone aganced builds like what you've said and still have no issues with taking down Bushwackers. If 2 or more come after me in a brawl then yeah I'd expect them to overtake me. But combined fire and the fact that I can keep fireing before shut down it's quite capable of winning a 1v1 with a bw.

And I use the prime so if I decide to override I don't take as much damage.

[Grus]

Plus the nova has better mobility options due to jump jets. So it has the option of disengagement to cool off before going back into the brawl when it best suits it.

[Pariah Devalis]

MischiefSC, on 08 November 2017 - 12:32 PM, said:

We ran almost 30 back to back wins with 2x range (hll/cerml) and 2 fast/brawl mechs.

Scouts find them, draw aggro. Range hits a leg at 400m. 100 damage, leg gone. That guy is boned. 4 v 3 the rest, then finish gimpy.

Also 2 hll, 6lmg Scats plus a couple of Huntsmen for the same thing.

You literally only need 1 hit at range to turn the fight into a roll - 100 damage done before the other side has 1 shot fired. That more than bridges the gap in lost dps.

I mean, I managed two and a half hours of straight wins the other night with pure brawl splat builds. The night I messed with ATM and MPLas, with a 3 man, not even a 4 man, we went 20:2. Scouting doesn't need to be particularly tough to win. However, the ease of winning was significantly higher if we all went all in with brawl. Giving the enemy too many targets, with too much focused fire, to easily respond.

[Clydewinder]

scout mode is permanently broken because of hardpoint inflation. you have to overbuff the IS mechs to make up for all of the 12-hardpoint clammers on the field. there is no fix.

[Pariah Devalis]

Clydewinder, on 12 November 2017 - 06:31 PM, said:

scout mode is permanently broken because of hardpoint inflation. you have to overbuff the IS mechs to make up for all of the 12-hardpoint clammers on the field. there is no fix.

Not even Novas tend to boat that many hardpoints, and in those cases four of those are machine guns. What else is putzing around scouting mode with more than 8 weapons on them? Usually, it is no more than 6 hardpoints.

[Clydewinder]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 November 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

Not even Novas tend to boat that many hardpoints, and in those cases four of those are machine guns. What else is putzing around scouting mode with more than 8 weapons on them? Usually, it is no more than 6 hardpoints.

nearly every Nova i've seen today is running 12 er small lasers.

[Pariah Devalis]

Clydewinder, on 12 November 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

nearly every Nova i've seen today is running 12 er small lasers.

That is a highly dangerous config for them. High risk. Unlike the 10 ERSLas variation, the 12 cannot ever, ever alpha. Even accidentally. Extremely risky build. Extremely hot.

[50 50]

Pariah Devalis, on 12 November 2017 - 06:40 PM, said:

Not even Novas tend to boat that many hardpoints, and in those cases four of those are machine guns. What else is putzing around scouting mode with more than 8 weapons on them? Usually, it is no more than 6 hardpoints.

If you're using less than 12 weapons on the Nova.... you're doing it wrong.


Depends on which NVA though and if you are going for the set of 8 quirks.

[Clydewinder]

the nova with 12 er small is a 60 point alpha with 6 tons of weaponry ( not counting heatsinks ) - if that is not unbalanced, then I would like to know what the IS counterbalance to that is.

[Vonbach]

Clydewinder, on 13 November 2017 - 07:58 AM, said:

the nova with 12 er small is a 60 point alpha with 6 tons of weaponry ( not counting heatsinks ) - if that is not unbalanced, then I would like to know what the IS counterbalance to that is.

There isn't one.