70 replies to this topic

[Agent 0range]

ranges and damage drop off matches TT the extreme range drop off matches the damage drop it has in TT beyond 9 hexs to its long range, it is exactly as i expected it to be. That said

It should have more velocity because the weapon is much more accurate on TT than a ppc due to its short range being 9 hexs(edit is has a better short range on TT than an ER PPC)

It should at the very least match the ppc for heat.

Edited by Agent 0range, 03 November 2017 - 05:39 AM.

[sceii]

even 9 heat is very low for SNPPC, with 8 heat they will be better then lpl.
It is still highly accurate ammo independant ppfld weapon.

Sjorpha, on 03 November 2017 - 03:59 AM, said:

Normal IS PPC and ERPPCs needs a buff too since they are worse than cERPPC, and heavy PPC needs it's old 4s cooldown back.

Normal is ppc have 1.5 times heat efficiency
IS ERppc are much more accurate then clan ERppc

[Escef]

As things stand currently, the only reason to take a SnPPC over a LPL is if you have good PPC quirks or you're seriously tight on tonnage. Otherwise, for only 1 ton more, the LPL is significantly better. Better effective range, less heat per shot, faster recycle.

[davoodoo]

Daggett, on 03 November 2017 - 01:28 AM, said:

That's probably because PGI slowly realized that the TT values and their relationships are not suitable for an FPS. Those are completely different genres with vastly different needs and mechanics.

In my opinion they should even stop to preserve TT-values for equipment weight and slots to gain really powerful possibilities for balancing.

Yet they already adjusted tt values by giving everything long range as optimal and 2x long range as maximum...
Everything except hgauss and snub ofc which use their tt short range...

Edited by davoodoo, 03 November 2017 - 09:48 AM.

[Trenchbird]

davoodoo, on 03 November 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

Yet they already adjusted tt values by giving everything long range as optimal and 2x long range as maximum...
Everything except hgauss and snub ofc which use their tt short range...

Both HGauss and Snub lose damage on tabletop after short range. Do you not know this?

[davoodoo]

Catten Hart, on 03 November 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

Both HGauss and Snub lose damage on tabletop after short range. Do you not know this?

So? currently medium laser got longer range than hgauss despite hgauss having twice short range in tt.
Also snub got higher short range than large laser, not in mwo though.

i said it already in that thread 450 optimal 675 max for snub, 600optimal 900m max for hgauss, both have way steeper damage dropoff past optimal range.

[Y E O N N E]

I am of two thoughts on this.

One, keep it short range:
Damage: 10
Heat: 8
Cooldown: 3.25 s
Range: 270 m / 630 m

Alternatively, mid-range:
Damage: 10
Heat: 8.5
Cool-down: 3.5 s
Range 450 m / 780 m

I actually prefer the latter, but it would absolutely require additional changes to the other PPCs. Without getting radical, I want to try:

LPPC
Damage: 5
Heat: 4.5
Cool-down: 3.75 s
Range: 540 m / 1080 m
Velocity: 1400 m/s

PPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 9
Cool-down: 4 s
Range: 600 m / 1200 m
Velocity: 1600 m/s

HPPC
Damage: 15
Heat: 14
Cool-down: 4.25 s
Range: 540 / 1080 m
Velocity: 1400 m/s

ERPPC
Damage: 10
Heat: 12
Cool-down: 4 s
Range: 810 m / 1620 m
Velocity: 1900 m/s

[Khobai]

Snubnose ppc should be 11 damage and 8.5 heat or alternatively 10/1/1 damage and 8.5 heat


PPC should have linear damage dropoff instead of the absurd zero damage dropoff.


All non-HPPC should have ghost heat limit of three. LPPC should have ghost heat limit of 5. HPPC should stay at ghost heat limit of 2.


And to fix the heat issue I would simply make ISDHS better. Make them at least 1.8/1.8 instead of 1.5/1.5. Possibly even make them true dubs if needed. They take up 3 crit slots instead of 2 crit slots so they should be better.

Quote

Just lower heat to 8 and give it a bit more optimal range (maybe 320m?) without increasing max range, it definitely needs a buff.

but the whole point of the snubnose PPC is to be a shorter range more brawling-oriented PPC. Giving it more range makes no sense. If you want more range thats what a regular PPC is for.

What the SNPPC needs is more damage and less heat so its better at brawling than a regular PPC.

11 damage or 10/1/1 damage and 8.5 heat is the way to go. Then it competes with LPL a little better.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2017 - 10:49 AM.

[Nightbird]

2snub 2lbx10 warhammers work great don't nerf them please

[Khobai]

how does buffing snubnose ppcs nerf them?

[MechaBattler]

I agree with at the very least it should be the same heat as the regular PPC. Perhaps even lower. They would definitely see more use if they were.

[Brain Cancer]

In TT, it has the same heat load as a standard IS PPC. Given it's additional drawbacks for a one-ton weight savings, matching the MWO IS PPC heat load is the least they can do.

[naterist]

Give it 400 meters max damage, 450 max range. Up its total damage and add splash. Keep heat the same, raise ghost heat number to 3. Congrats, its similar to its lore based role, and it creates an IS equivelant to heavy laser spam.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

but the whole point of the snubnose PPC is to be a shorter range more brawling-oriented PPC. Giving it more range makes no sense. If you want more range thats what a regular PPC is for.

We have that thing in the game called lpl

10 dmg for 7.25 heat with 3s cooldown and 0.67s duration

You need to beat this if you want brawling energy weapon...

So far lpl beats snub in every category except duration(but who cares about 0.67s) and tonnage(0.52 hps for 1 ton though?? it would need to be 8 heat to compete)

It would have better chance to compete with llas where 1.1s duration and 9 damage actually give snub an upper hand in 500m bracket

Edited by davoodoo, 03 November 2017 - 01:33 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

You could reasonably give it bits from other PPCs.

The better heat efficiency for the IS PPC. It's a stripped down IS PPC, there's no reason to have it get worse heat:damage.

The better velocity like the IS ERPPC. It's more accurate than the IS PPC at short range, and has a huge short range band in TT. That it's competing with LPLs only makes giving it better accuracy even a better idea.

Slightly better cooldown than the rest of the IS PPC family. It doesn't need to be cut down to LPL speed, but a 4-second brawlgun is glacial, matching up with AC/20's. Trim it down to 3.5 or 3.75.

[Jun Watarase]

Bombast, on 02 November 2017 - 09:47 PM, said:

If you're using TT stats, the Snubs optimal range is actually correct. 10 damage out to 9 hexes (270 meters).

The weird thing is that it's max range is so much lower than most other weapons. It only gets an extra 180 meters over its TT counterpart (1.4 optimal), while, say, the PPC gets 540 (2.0).

EDIT: Also your version is epic tier garbage.

The optimal range in the TT is the "Short range" bracket. For the med laser, thats 90 meters where it has the highest chance to hit.

In MWO the optimal range for med lasers is 270m instead because everything has a 100% hit chance.

PGI couldnt figure out why this might be a problem.

[Trenchbird]

davoodoo, on 03 November 2017 - 10:03 AM, said:

So? currently medium laser got longer range than hgauss despite hgauss having twice short range in tt.
Also snub got higher short range than large laser, not in mwo though.

i said it already in that thread 450 optimal 675 max for snub, 600optimal 900m max for hgauss, both have way steeper damage dropoff past optimal range.

You clearly won't understand, or are willfully ignoring me, in a vain attempt to 'win' an argument. Let me inform you of how flawed your logic is.

On tabletop, a Large Laser does not lose damage until you start going past its long range. SN-PPCs and HGausses start losing damage outside of short range.

A Large Laser's damage profile was always 8short/8medium/8long.

A Snub Nose PPC's damage profile was always 10short/8medium/5long.

A Heavy Gauss Rifle's damage profile was always 25short/20medium/10long.

Now, the reason why PGI went with the tabletop stats of short range, as opposed to the max range of the latter two weapons, is because they already have a damage drop inherent in the stats. That is the drawback of these weapon systems on tabletop. If you gave them damage drop *Within the optimal range*, that would cease to be the actual optimal range. Tacking on a new Optimal Range measurement does not solve the problem.

And alternative way of looking at this, is that the Tabletop stats already had an 'Optimal range' measurement, that coincided with the short range of these weapons. That is why they receive a damage dropoff after short range.

Edited by Catten Hart, 03 November 2017 - 02:22 PM.

[Zookeeper Dan]

I don't think I'd run Snubs solely as a brawling weapon, but as it's been pointed out it fits really well as a backup to an AC on a shoot twist brawler.

I run one paired with an AC 20 on my Atlas. It fits in well with the closely located AC hardpoint.

[Nightbird]

Buffing likely won't happen, since they're performing well.

[Queen of England]

The problem with the SNPPC is pretty basic - it has a very similar role to the LPL, and isn't as good.

Just drop the SNPPC heat to 7.5 so its about as efficient as an LPL and it would do fine. You'd have a reasonable choice between a weapon with a travel time vs. a hitscan weapon with a burn duration.