140 replies to this topic

[Savage Wolf]

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 November 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

Right, but lasers require between 0.5s and 1.55 of time on target. Not just over or around the target, like Streaks, but on the same location.

You can't honestly tell me you can hold a laser at 400m on a single location (arm, torso, leg) easier than you can hold a target lock at 200m, can you?

As I said, hitting with lasers is easy, getting all (or even most) of their damage on target is less easy.

Streaks require alot longer facetime against an ECM light even if you have a BAP. And a laser doesn't need to put all it's damage into one component on a light, just like streaks don't have to. On assaults, sure, but then it's easy. Lasers can also be off target for split second and then return and still be effective, the streaks needs constant uninterrupted being on target even if the target is slightly bigger at range. Up front, the target box is actually smaller than the mech. And lasers deal damage while you have facetime, streaks only deal damage after the fact. If the missiles connect.

And don't underestimate the advantages of higher range as well.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Savage Wolf, on 06 November 2017 - 05:10 AM, said:

Streaks require alot longer facetime against an ECM light even if you have a BAP. And a laser doesn't need to put all it's damage into one component on a light, just like streaks don't have to. On assaults, sure, but then it's easy. Lasers can also be off target for split second and then return and still be effective, the streaks needs constant uninterrupted being on target even if the target is slightly bigger at range. Up front, the target box is actually smaller than the mech. And lasers deal damage while you have facetime, streaks only deal damage after the fact. If the missiles connect.

And don't underestimate the advantages of higher range as well.

If you're going to bring up ECM, I'm going to bring up TAG. There, no more ECM woes.

No, it doesn't have to put all the damage into one location, but that is the aim. It's the difference between "Lasers are easy to use, because they are easy to hit with" and "Lasers are not easy to use, because holding your reticle on the same location of a moving location is not easy".

Streaks can hold lock while the enemy passes by a friendly, lasers can either stop dealing damage or damage a team mate. Same thing with intervening terrain, a Streak user can hold lock while it rounds the offending scenery, lasers will be wasting damage.

No amount of skill can increase range, so it's not pertinent to the discussion. Plus, it's easier to hit things closer, provided they don't move faster than you can. Which is why Streaks should never be on anything above 65 tons.

I'm all for some form of Streak buff, as they just aren't that scary. Even most of my Lights aren't scared of Streak boats, as they can out range them, out run them, or both. Sure, I could turn the corner into an SSRM72 monster, but I could also turn the corner into an AC40 monster, or a HLL & ERML light show. Now I'm dead.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 06 November 2017 - 05:30 AM.

[Savage Wolf]

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 November 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

If you're going to bring up ECM, I'm going to bring up TAG. There, no more ECM woes.

So now we are talking two weapons used in tandem vs one weapon. And TAG is basically also a laser. So against an ECM light you either need to use a laser AND missiles vs just using a laser. Do the math.
Which is why I mentioned BAP, which is easier to use, albeit vulnerable to double ECM.

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 November 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

No, it doesn't have to put all the damage into one location, but that is the aim. It's the difference between "Lasers are easy to use, because they are easy to hit with" and "Lasers are not easy to use, because holding your reticle on the same location of a moving location is not easy".

But Streaks need to do the exact same thing. It's "I only dealt half damage because I couldn't keep on target" vs "I dealt NO damage because I couldn't keep on target.". Not to mention lasers while maybe not dealing full damage to a fast light can still deal it where is counts aka. the legs. It's not like streaks deal full damage to the legs either.
The target is bigger for streaks at range, because the box is bigger, but it doesn't have the range anyway. At short range, the mech is bigger than the box, so at the range where streaks are used, lasers have a bigger target to hit than streaks.

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 November 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

Streaks can hold lock while the enemy passes by a friendly, lasers can either stop dealing damage or damage a team mate. Same thing with intervening terrain, a Streak user can hold lock while it rounds the offending scenery, lasers will be wasting damage.

Shooting streaks at an enemy behind an ally will also hit your ally. It's only a matter of timing. And the same with cover, the only counter to lasers.

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 November 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

No amount of skill can increase range, so it's not pertinent to the discussion. Plus, it's easier to hit things closer, provided they don't move faster than you can. Which is why Streaks should never be on anything above 65 tons.

Who said anything about increasing range? I have no idea what you are arguing here. All I said is that range has an advantage. And because it's easier to get into long range than short range, long range is actually easier and rarely excludes use in short range.

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 November 2017 - 05:27 AM, said:

I'm all for some form of Streak buff, as they just aren't that scary. Even most of my Lights aren't scared of Streak boats, as they can out range them, out run them, or both. Sure, I could turn the corner into an SSRM72 monster, but I could also turn the corner into an AC40 monster, or a HLL & ERML light show. Now I'm dead.

I agree.

But really, can't you see that we are debating very very small details that differ in the difficulty of these weapons? They are all easy to use. All of them.

The biggest difference is that Streaks are really only effective against lights, meaning that in order to use them, you need to be better at other skills like positioning and battlefield awareness to get to where those weapons are of use. Lasers are always effective so it's easy to get into a position where they contribute to victory. But in terms of aiming? The difference is negligible and neither require much aiming skill to use.

[Admiral-Dan]

Dee Eight, on 05 November 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

when beaten/out damage outputted by them. Ignoring the fact you cannot fire them without a weapon lock... and that THAT requires holding your crosshairs on the target for about 2 seconds... and you have to keep holding the crosshairs on target to keep firing them.... there's the mental math that goes into using them. Are you in range ? Will the missiles have the range to chase down the target ? Will they have the speed to do that before they run out of range ? Will anything get in the way during their flight (like a friendly) ? What if the enemy turns...are they going to track into a building ? How's PGI's hit registration lately ? Will it result in better if chain or group fired as a result ?
Yeah... no skill required at all. And I don't boat streaks on anything.

If you look at it this way even eating does require very much skill. You need to put the fork in your food. You need to find your mouth with the fork. It is really dangerous if you do not find your mouth and put the fork in your eye. You need to estimate if the amount you put on your fork fits in your mouth. …

Yeah, lots of skill required to eat.

[Jay Leon Hart]

How about a compromise;

"Lasers are easier to hit with than Streaks, however they are less easy to get full damage from than Streaks."

[Savage Wolf]

Jay Leon Hart, on 06 November 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

How about a compromise;

"Lasers are easier to hit with than Streaks, however they are less easy to get full damage from than Streaks."

Njaahh... How about this:

"It's easier to deal full damage, although spread, to lights (without ECM, unless paired with TAG or BAP) with streaks than with laser. In any other scenario, lasers are easier.."

And that really is the problem with streaks. Their strength is so very narrow. And lasers are so versatile.

[Kin3ticX]

they dont take skill

Streaks are a foos strategy

[Paigan]

Dee Eight, on 05 November 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

when beaten/out damage outputted by them. Ignoring the fact you cannot fire them without a weapon lock... and that THAT requires holding your crosshairs on the target for about 2 seconds... and you have to keep holding the crosshairs on target to keep firing them.... there's the mental math that goes into using them. Are you in range ? Will the missiles have the range to chase down the target ? Will they have the speed to do that before they run out of range ? Will anything get in the way during their flight (like a friendly) ? What if the enemy turns...are they going to track into a building ? How's PGI's hit registration lately ? Will it result in better if chain or group fired as a result ?

Yeah... no skill required at all. And I don't boat streaks on anything.

I don't see a problem either way:

Streaks (and LRMs) don't require skill ... aiminig skill.
Everything else, like building proper loadouts, making proper tactical decisions, steering the Mech and the Torso, communicating, torso twisting, etc. stays the same.
PLUS the locking timing, as you say. It's signifcantly easier than aimining, yes, but the total complexity of "required skill" is pretty similar. Aiming or not.

[Asym]

InfinityBall, on 05 November 2017 - 09:56 PM, said:

[Redacted]

[Redacted]

So, please let's define "SRM's and Skill" as you see it so that we can respond according to the the standards you set? At least, then, maybe we could discuss what is necessary for MWO to be even better than it is now. Especially, since we really don't know where PGI is taking us and why and why certain weapons systems are being negatively affected or what many think we need to exclude weapons they can defend against: i.e. anything that locks on.....

Edited by draiocht, 06 November 2017 - 07:49 AM.
Quote Clean-up, reference

[Jay Leon Hart]

Define skill? Anything you can not inherently do. Walking, for example, is a skill.

This moves the discussion away from "This or that weapon does not take skill" and towards "This or that weapon requires less or more skill than this other weapon" instead.

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 05 November 2017 - 11:26 AM, said:

You have no idea how long I've been asking for SSRMs to be reworked into an aim-based weapon. It would make them soooo much stronger and more reliable against big targets while letting lights have a bit of an easier time since they're usually harder to aim at.

But nah, we gotta keep the autoaim mechanic for all lock-on missiles so that they stay sub-par forever.

If SSRMs are used with TAG, then their random hit nature should be replaced by impact centered on the section that the TAG beam is pointed on (think wire-guided missiles).

If SSRMs are used with NARC, then they should impact centered on the section that the latter is attached to.

And in Hades' name, remove that damned magic force field protecting the cockpit from SSRMs.

[Dimento Graven]

Dee Eight, on 05 November 2017 - 09:48 AM, said:

when beaten/out damage outputted by them. Ignoring the fact you cannot fire them without a weapon lock... and that THAT requires holding your crosshairs on the target for about 2 seconds... and you have to keep holding the crosshairs on target to keep firing them.... there's the mental math that goes into using them. Are you in range ? Will the missiles have the range to chase down the target ? Will they have the speed to do that before they run out of range ? Will anything get in the way during their flight (like a friendly) ? What if the enemy turns...are they going to track into a building ? How's PGI's hit registration lately ? Will it result in better if chain or group fired as a result ?

Yeah... no skill required at all. And I don't boat streaks on anything.

<sigh>

The Easy-Peasy 5 Step Guide to SSRMS (or LRMs) l33tn355!!!

1. Press R to target enemy.
2. Put little circle in big box.
3. Wait for Big circle.
4. Push the button.
5. Wait for RNGeesus to decide what you've hit.

That's it.

Now all the extra fluff you want to add for "checking range" and yadda, yadda, yadda... Well, pretty much every other weapon has a lot of the same sort of checks and balances, so those skills are actually common across the various weapon systems.

Anyway, SSRMs (and LRMs) are low on my 'difficulty' scale (higher than LRMs though because you DO have to get a LOT closer in range and are pretty much required to use your own targeting).

Computer guided weaponry are my, "BEEN DRINKIN' A LOT" go to weapons, for fun and profit while too intoxicated to properly aim...

[Wolfways]

These forums never change lol.

This weapon takes more skill. No that weapon takes more skill. No, this one does! I think this one takes no skill because...well I don't like it!
Nobody will ever agree so why bother whining about it? Just use what you like to use and let others do the same.

If I just wanted to get good match scores every game I'd never get out of my Jagermech (as imo AC's are massively op! ).
But I don't, I play what I like and don't care if others don't like it or consider it a "no skill weapon".

[Wolfways]

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2017 - 10:12 AM, said:

The Easy-Peasy 5 Step Guide to SSRMS (or LRMs) l33tn355!!!

1. Press R to target enemy.
2. Put little circle in big box.
3. Wait for Big circle.
4. Push the button.
5. Wait for RNGeesus to decide what you've hit.

That's it.

Except that you missed the part where you have to keep the reticle on the mech until the lock, not just in the box. If you move the reticle away from the target, but still within the box, you begin to lose lock.

[Dimento Graven]

Wolfways, on 06 November 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Except that you missed the part where you have to keep the reticle on the mech until the lock, not just in the box. If you move the reticle away from the target, but still within the box, you begin to lose lock.

Yeah, but it's a BIG box, and the circle you have to keep in it is small so, yeah, easy... Various skills, and components make it even easier (by decreasing the time required before LRM/SSRM lock, target retention and so on..), so yeah, I'll continue to use my RNGeesus weapons when to too intoxicated to properly utilize my gauss, thank you very much...

[Wolfways]

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2017 - 10:44 AM, said:

Yeah, but it's a BIG box, and the circle you have to keep in it is small so, yeah, easy... Various skills, and components make it even easier (by decreasing the time required before LRM/SSRM lock, target retention and so on..), so yeah, I'll continue to use my RNGeesus weapons when to too intoxicated to properly utilize my gauss, thank you very much...

But every time the target changes direction or speed there's a good chance that it will increase the lock-on time, unless you can keep the reticle directly on the target mech.

[Dimento Graven]

Wolfways, on 06 November 2017 - 10:59 AM, said:

But every time the target changes direction or speed there's a good chance that it will increase the lock-on time, unless you can keep the reticle directly on the target mech.

Yeah, but then we get to the point of, "If you're too drunk to do that, you just might be too drunk to not drown in your own drool..."

I mean, c'mon, it's a REALLY big box!

[Wolfways]

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2017 - 11:06 AM, said:

Yeah, but then we get to the point of, "If you're too drunk to do that, you just might be too drunk to not drown in your own drool..."

I mean, c'mon, it's a REALLY big box!

What has the box got to do with it?
You move your reticle toward the target you start getting a lock.
You move your reticle away from the target you start losing the lock.
It doesn't matter that your reticle stays within the box the whole time. Moving your reticle away from the target mech by any amount starts losing the lock and you have to move the reticle back onto the mech.

I'm not sure why people believe you just have to point somewhere within the box.

[Dimento Graven]

Wolfways, on 06 November 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:

What has the box got to do with it?
You move your reticle toward the target you start getting a lock.
You move your reticle away from the target you start losing the lock.
It doesn't matter that your reticle stays within the box the whole time. Moving your reticle away from the target mech by any amount starts losing the lock and you have to move the reticle back onto the mech.

I'm not sure why people believe you just have to point somewhere within the box.

I guess we just see it differently.

You keep the little circle in the big box long enough, you get lock, you fire, RNGeesus tosses the dice and damage is counted.

You add a TAG, the time you need to hold the small circle in the big square is reduced.
You add a BAP, the time you need to hold the small circle in the box square is reduced (as well as counter any ECM your target might have).
UAT, allows you to maintain lock even in spite of ECM.

As long as your little circle is in the big box, you're getting/maintaining lock.

It's a small circle, and it's a big box.

For me, there's not much difficulty there.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 06 November 2017 - 12:06 PM.

[Wolfways]

Dimento Graven, on 06 November 2017 - 12:06 PM, said:

I guess we just see it differently.

You keep the little circle in the big box long enough, you get lock, you fire, RNGeesus tosses the dice and damage is counted.

You add a TAG, the time you need to hold the small circle in the big square is reduced.
You add a BAP, the time you need to hold the small circle in the box square is reduced (as well as counter any ECM your target might have).
UAT, allows you to maintain lock even in spite of ECM.

As long as your little circle is in the big box, you're getting/maintaining lock.

It's a small circle, and it's a big box.

For me, there's not much difficulty there.

You do realise that having the reticle inside the box only makes it possible to attempt to get a lock right? The box has nothing else to do with the chance of getting a lock. Outside the box, no chance. Inside the box, a chance.
Theoretically, you could spend eternity (well, as long as a match anyway) with the reticule inside the box and never get a lock.

Lock is gained by moving the reticle towards the target. If the target moves away from the reticle for a second the reticle changes to indicate that you're losing the lock before it has even happened.
That's why lights are a pita to lock onto when they're bouncing all over the place. You have to be very precise.

Edited by Wolfways, 06 November 2017 - 12:18 PM.