31 replies to this topic

[Feezou]

I have no idea why Clan mechs are so expensive. Even though it could be Omnipods, is that really a big reason to price them so high up?

An Arctic Cheetah can cost upwards of 7 million C-bills for a light.

I love Omnipods, as you can create almost any build with them, but I just don't get it.

[Zoeff]

This is mainly to do with clan mechs coming with really expensive equipment out of the box, like a large (and locked) clan XL engine. This often means that you don't have to buy those engines unlike with IS mechs. This way you may even *save* some money compared to another mech where you have to pay for the standard engine and whatever light fusion engine you may want to actually use.

[Mechwarrior4670152]

What Zoeff said, but to go into more detail...
Compare a WLF-1 (2.6 million cbills) to an ADR-PRIME (7 million cbills)

ADR Prime comes with an XL210 engine, DHS, Endosteel structure and Ferro armor
Wolfhound-1 comes with a STD210 engine, SHS, STD structure, and STD armor

To put those same upgrades on the Wolfhound it will bring it's cost up to 8.2 million cbills.

Clans cost more upfront because they come upgraded to higher tech-levels

All mechs that do that actually come at a discount though - compare the cost of a Raven 3L (5.8 million) to the 2X with the same upgrades (jumps from 2.4 to 5.9 million)

[Rogue Jedi]

lets look at 2 simular Mechs, the Clan Arctic Cheetah ACH-C initial cost of about 7.6 million cbills and the Inner Sphere Javlin JAV-11A with a starting cost of about 2.6 million cbills, the ACH is competitive right out of the box (of course it is possible to improve it) but the Javlin is a fair bit slower, a bit too slow for me to be happy piloting it, at the very least it needs Endo Steel internals and a bigger XL engine to make it competitive with the ACH so lets throw in an XL255 engine and Endo allowing me to drop 3 heatsinks ^{(because the 255 has 10 internal heatsinks to the 180's 7, and a Mech needs 10 heatsinks minimum to launch)}, that costs 4.46 million cbills taking the total to 7.1 million, suddenly there is not much price diferance7.1 to 7.6 million cbills, but the ACH has ER and Pulse Lasers as well as an Active Probe while the Javlin only has standard lasers

I could drop 2 jumpjet to make the tonage and slots available for the Active Probe which would add 400k to the bill and significantly reduce the jump capability of the Javlin meaning the Javlin now costs 7.56 million, realy close to the price of the the Arctic Cheetah, but the ACH still has better lasers, and a flamer the Javlin does not have tonage for.

compairing like for like there is little price diferance between Clan and IS and buying Clan often works out a lot cheeper.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 08 November 2017 - 12:37 PM.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

I think endo and ferro don't affect the prices much. This would apply particular for IS mechs which have similiar prices yet some come stock with endo and double heat sinks and some neither.

But Clan mechs in particular they have pretty much all XL engines, which affects the price a lot, as well as omnimechs have much higher prices. So omnis and XL are the main reason.

[Feezou]

So they basically come better equipped. I thought it was the omnipods.

[Koniving]

Feezou, on 09 November 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

So they basically come better equipped. I thought it was the omnipods.

Not really about the omnipods, the omnipods are actually pretty cheap.

It is that they come better equipped.

An XL 300 engine is around 4,900,000 cbills by itself and is half the weight of a STD engine; a STD 300 is 1,840,000 cbills. Most IS mechs come with STD engines, with some exceptions coming with XLs (and they are usually the more expensive IS mechs).
There's maybe 2 or 3 Clan mechs in the game that come with standard engines. All others come with XL engines.

Then there's double heatsinks... Far as I know there isn't a Clan mech that comes with STD heatsinks. Many IS mechs have STD heatsinks because that is how they are in lore, but they effectively need doubles due to how this game allows a minimum of 3 times the firing rate to 19x the firing rate of any tabletop weapon, and by extension are generating 3 to 19 times the heat and damage of even their lore counter parts, while consuming that many times more ammo, etc... Even with double armor and structure per ton, mechs can die very quickly if focused down.... these all combine to make STD heatsinks virtually useless, so upgrade ASAP.

In many cases, IS mechs come out to comparable prices as the Clan mechs. Sometimes one actually comes out more expensive than the other, it really depends on how much you opt to change.

For example an IS Hunchback almost universally comes out cheaper than the Clan Hunchback IIC. This is because you don't really need that XL engine (its actually a liability in this case), and it tanks so well it doesn't need speed. Meanwhile the IIC Hunchback is a weapons platform that needs lots of free weight to carry hefty payloads, and its armor is pretty soft so it also needs speed. Its like comparing the tortoise to the hare.

That also gets into why the IS Hunchback is one of the most recommended mediums....ever. Slow and steady keeps the player alive (by making it take a while to get to the front of the fight and giving the player a lot of time to think things through before actually getting into danger), universally cheap keeps more cbills in the new player's pocket, armor for days of abuse and just enough firepower to feel awesome, with enough forward utility (expandable use as you learn how to play) that you can start good and learn it gets even better as you get into advanced controls.

Good luck out there.

Edited by Koniving, 09 November 2017 - 01:14 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Just to add something I should have mentioned earlier, while on the whole PGI have done a very good job at balencing the massivly overpowered Clan equipment from the Battletech source material with the IS equipment, the Clans do still have a significant advantage over the Inner Sphere, the Clan XL Engine can suvive loosing a side torso, the IS XL cannot, to suvive a side torso loss Inner Sphere Mechs need to use a Light Fusion engine which weighs 50% more than an XL.

In the 30 ton Mech Javlin vs Arctic Cheetah example I used earlier that does not matter, the Javlin is fast enough that it the best way to kill it is shooting the legs, same as ACH,
When you start looking at bigger Mechs all of a sudden loosing a side before the CT or a leg becomes much more likely, so on heavy and assualt Mechs Clans often have 6-10 more tons to play with due to the IS Mechs using LF rather than XL engines as they need the suvibility of Light Fusion Engines, which Clans get 33% lighter with the cXL.

The IS Light Fusion is priced simularly to the Clan and IS XL Engines.

Mechs like the Atlas or Stalker may still use Standard engines, also if you want an LB20X AC or a Heavy Gauss you have to use a standard to have enough slots for them to fit
most other IS Mechs over about 65 tons would use a Light engine
Some Mediums or lighter heavies will use XL, some will use LFE and still others may use standard engines
most IS Light Mechs will bring an eXtra Light engine as they need as much tonage and speed as they can get.

About the only time a Clan Mech would use a standard engine is if they are after putting 2 Gauss in a side torso, pretty much all builds on Clan Mechs use XL Engines

[Koniving]

While at this point just extraneous, I would like to note of my now 269 mechs, I have exactly 2 IS LF engines and to be honest the extra survivability doesn't really play much of a factor for me.

Clan mechs do have the advantage in the XL engine's survivability and there is a direct way PGI could have handled that. However, barring that I feel they have addressed it in numerous other ways. Many Clan mechs can have their rear torsos hit more easily and from many more angles than IS mechs, allowing players to hit Clan mechs where they are weakest. The exception being the ever venerable Timber Wolf.

It goes a bit further, too. Clan mechs often have exceptionally large side torso hitboxes, making them very easy to hit This is accompanied with a very large center torso area on chicken walkers, concentrated toward the front and often circular in nature, making it very easy to ignore their side torsos and go straight for the kill. There's also the fact that in most cases the cockpit hitbox is exceptionally large and easy to hit compared to IS cockpit hitboxes (except the Hellbringer which should in theory have the largest hitboxes in the game, but instead have the tiniest one).

PGI has since made it so that IS and Clan equipment have different health values, and in relation to their smaller slot size and weight, Clan equipment is made more fragile, too. A shame this change was only made recently.

My point is that there are drawbacks that do help bringing the disparity in line. It isn't perfect, but in many cases it does help.
It may be worth noting that of my 269 mechs, at last count more than 60% of them are IS, and I generally prefer to run IS mechs despite the Timber Wolf being my favorite of all time, and my introduction to Mechwarrior being entirely based on Mechwarrior 2, which featured exclusively Clan Mechs.

[Tarl Cabot]

Remember though, pouring damage into a destroyed section halves transfers 60% (corrected) of the damage to the next section...so firing into a destroyed ST means your damage is cut in half as it enters the CT, or destroyed leg into ST.. etc..

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 10 November 2017 - 04:15 AM.

[Koniving]

Not entirely sure where that reminder comes from, but that is effectively why you do not pour your damage into one section. Case in point. Destroy, shift target, destroy, shift target.

If it was meant as a thing about the Clan hitboxes...
This is why you simply skirt around the Clan XL and go for the core. Nothing survives a boop on the nose or the gut.

Spoiler

Notice a trend here? Big CTs... Stop aiming for the side torsos against Clan mechs. And if getting in front or directly behind is too difficult, just aim for legs.

[Koniving]

Another good example. Two Madcat MK IIs and one Dire Wolf killed by an Orion with an LMG, LB-10X, one PPC, an SRM-6 and 2 medium lasers with minimal damage. Clan mechs are easy to wipe out. Go for the core.

Doesn't matter what they are. I don't think about whether they are Clan or IS or evaluate them as if one is a bigger threat than the other. You can even see me rush a Dire Wolf head on not once but twice in this slow Hunchback, as well as poke at Kodiaks, engage many enemies of both IS and Clan origin and about the only thing I wouldn't do is engage more than one larger enemy at a time, though I'd take on any single enemy regardless of how much bigger they are compared to me.

But how to kill them is straying quite a bit from the topic. Just wanted to point out, Clan superiority is largely a myth in MWO (except in laser vomit potential; they do have the IS beat there but this is only because PGI has given them bonus damage to their large pulse lasers inexplicably.).

[Rogue Jedi]

Tarl Cabot, on 09 November 2017 - 06:41 PM, said:

Remember though, pouring damage into a destroyed section halves the damage to the next section...so firing into a destroyed ST means your damage is cut in half as it enters the CT, or destroyed leg into ST.. etc..

not halves, reduces by 60%, pass through 2 destroyed sections and you have an 84% reduction meaing only 16% of the damage reaches the CT

[Dungeon 206]

Koniving, on 09 November 2017 - 08:39 PM, said:

Another good example. Two Madcat MK IIs and one Dire Wolf killed by an Orion with an LMG, LB-10X, one PPC, an SRM-6 and 2 medium lasers with minimal damage. Clan mechs are easy to wipe out. Go for the core.

erm this is slightly overstated.
any mech, IS or Clan, is easy to kill when your team has cored them for you.
and especially if they are not shooting at you. as in your video.

Edited by Dungeon 206, 10 November 2017 - 01:00 AM.

[Jingseng]

Why are luxury cars so expensive? =p

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Koniving, on 09 November 2017 - 12:26 PM, said:

Quote

Not really about the omnipods, the omnipods are actually pretty cheap.

It is that they come better equipped.

It comes mostly from having more expensive equipment. But the omnipods are still there too, and when you buy an omnimech, you buy the pods too.

Cheapest omnipods right now are from Mist Lynx. They cost 150k a piece. Onminechs have 8 omnipods. So the price of Mist Lynx omnipods is 1.5 million. That is the whole price of locust with STD engine.

Of course the biggest reason for price of Mist Lynx being so much more than Locust or any IS 25 tonner, is the XL engine it has. But even a locust+similiar XL is still cheaper, mainly because of omnipods.

On bigger mechs the relative price of omnipods goes to have less effect.

Its still clear if you see Night Gyr, 75 ton omnimech with XL300, and Orion IIC, 75 also which also has XL300 on some of the models. The price difference is the omnipods. And the most expensive Night Gyr is only because it has pretty expensive LRM20A launchers and stuff.


I actually checked, I don't think endo or ferro affect the price of mech at all. Instead it will effect it's value. Douple heatsinks seem to effect the price because of the heatsinks itself, but not because of the "upgrade" part of it.

[Tarl Cabot]

Koniving, on 09 November 2017 - 07:42 PM, said:

Not entirely sure where that reminder comes from, but that is effectively why you do not pour your damage into one section. Case in point. Destroy, shift target, destroy, shift target.

If it was meant as a thing about the Clan hitboxes...
This is why you simply skirt around the Clan XL and go for the core. Nothing survives a boop on the nose or the gut.

Spoiler

Notice a trend here? Big CTs... Stop aiming for the side torsos against Clan mechs. And if getting in front or directly behind is too difficult, just aim for legs.

Hai, it was brought up that firing into any destroyed section reduces the damage being transferred. OP, the reason this is important is that most IS mechs are humanoid mechs which most can utilize their arms as shields til destroyed whereas most Clan mechs are chicken walkers. Many players though forgot about how the hitboxes are setup for IS/Clan chicken walkers and continue blasting away into both the destroyed arm/side torso locations, or if legging a mech, blasting into the left destroyed leg instead of trying to re-position to take out the right leg.

With that said, one item you can control is your aim. In the game settings, change your Mouse Sensitivity from the far right to the far left, around 0.1-0.3. Adjust accordingly for more steady aim. If your mouse has adjustable DPI settings, then adjust it so when the need to go slower or faster is at fingertip away.

[mogs01gt]

Because they're worth it.

[Koniving]

*Tries and fails to stifle snickering...*

*Fails so epicly it turns into room bursting laughter.*

Now that... that's rich.

Seriously, no they are not. Unless laser vomit is your thing.

Exceptions maybe on Piranha for fun factor and Arctic Wolf, 'cause that is actually pretty good.. as is the Nova Cat.

[Wolfways]

Feezou, on 09 November 2017 - 11:59 AM, said:

So they basically come better equipped.

Actually no.
With IS mechs you can upgrade the equipment and use whatever you like. Engines, structure, armour, weapons, can be swapped with anything you like.
With clan mechs you're stuck with whatever the mech comes with and you mostly are forced to remove some weapons or replace them with smaller ones. Also, having an Endo structure gives you more free weight to play with than Ferro armour, and some clan mechs come with Ferro and there's nothing you can do about it.