125 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Athom83, on 14 November 2017 - 03:28 PM, said:

For the sake of the argument, lets loadup the simulator and set the range at the edge of your LL optimal. It dies even quicker than the Cat. Okay, lets make it 500. Now it survives to 30 seconds. 600m? 40 seconds. Okay, lets see at 200m brawling range where the Atlas shines. The Black Knight lasts all of 15 seconds. Now lets add a second Black Knight; First dies in 14 seconds, and the second barely survives killing the Atlas at 60 seconds. However the Atlas still did far more raw damage than both the Black Knights combined. And it gets worse for the Knights if the Atlas gets set to shoot for XL STs.

Also, you just proved my point. You specifically chose the extreme high alpha clan heavy mechs as a representation of all lighter mechs. When you look at more realistic builds, the firepower gap widens.

You know why simulator sux??

http://4eye-labs.net...bed92c4c2b4be59

that one always ends with is winning, while in reality we know how that would end.

[Khobai]

well the simulator is set for aiming CT with 100% accuracy too

change it to weighted random with tier 1 accuracy and clans win

people dont hit CT with 100% of the damage every time they fire lasers, thats a bad way to set up the simulation

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2017 - 03:44 PM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 14 November 2017 - 03:43 PM, said:

well the simulator is set for aiming CT with 100% accuracy too

change it to weighted random with tier 1 accuracy and clans win

people dont hit CT every time they fire lasers, thats a bad way to sit up the simulatoin

I actually did, dont know why it didnt save for the link.
http://4eye-labs.net...bed92c4c2b4be59

again didnt save...

also its not like i put it at 500m outside of range of any is weapon where mediums barely do any dmg and still they win.

Edited by davoodoo, 14 November 2017 - 03:47 PM.

[Troa Barton]

For the people complaining that assaults would get ridiculous if they were buffed remember these points.

1. This is a team game, your single light/medium/heavy should not be able to easily take out an assault.
2. You will also have assaults on your team. It's not like your side won't also benefit from this.

Seems people are more concerned about being able to dispatch assaults themselves than actually thinking about the implications on the game as a whole.

I do think that assault's torso twist speed needs to be increased but only enough to curb laser vomit and not to track lights with ease. Lights are supposed to be a counter to assaults and that should not change. A minimal increase in mobility would be sufficient to help curb meta vomit builds and allow assaults to close.

Armor and structure needs to be increased across the board, the easiest way to do that is to increase the multiplier in the skill tree for both types of nodes.

A minor increase to torso speed and an increase in armor / structure node multipliers for assaults.

That's it.

Aside from that the only assaults that need direct changes not global changes are the AS7 D-DC, AS7 S, AS7 BH, as well as all of the Annihilators. The Atlai all need to be as tanky as every other variant, with the introduction of CW tech the other variants such as the K aren't as bad as they once were. Give them all the same base armor values.

The Annihilators unlike the Atlas can't fit a larger engine they are slow no matter what you do unlike the Atlas which can get surprisingly fast. They are also significantly larger no small feat considering the wall of metal that is an Atlas. It's completely backwards that the Annihilators are less tanky than the Atlas given how huge and lumbering they are. If PGI insists that the Atlas is to be the tankiest mech make the Anni as tanky but not less so.

[FupDup]

Troa Barton, on 14 November 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

1. This is a team game, your single light/medium/heavy should not be able to easily take out an assault.

This argument goes both ways. A single assault shouldn't be able to favorably fight multiple people at the same time. Assaults should have to use teamwork too.

[Nightbird]

Heavies and mediums are easier to play than assaults and lights, but this doesn't mean assaults and lights suck, just that they require some experience to use effectively. When they are piloted effectively, they are extremely powerful in influencing win/loss.

[Troa Barton]

FupDup, on 14 November 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

This argument goes both ways. A single assault shouldn't be able to favorably fight multiple people at the same time. Assaults should have to use teamwork too.

I agree, but right now assaults don't get backup when they do something bold because everyone behind them knows they aren't going to last very long.
Your argument implies that that the lone assault isn't also subjected to heat, there would be nothing favorable about a 3 on 1 fight. The difference here would be that the assault would survive long enough or inspire enough confidence to receive backup.

You have also neglected the totality of my argument that says your side would ALSO have assaults.

Edited by Troa Barton, 14 November 2017 - 04:05 PM.

[l33tworks]

Paigan, on 14 November 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

That and the experience that, for example DWF players seem particularily reluctant to torso twist or go back into cover when fired upon.
Every now and then, I have an enemy DWF that I 3-ERLL at long range into its CT, while he defiantly stares at me until he's dead. Similar with KDKs, but not as often. Hardly ever with Atlasses.
It really must be some kind of psychological thing: "Me be mighty DWF, me no have need to evade damage."


Assaults like that die like flies. No kidding.

Hahah because you cant lol. Your obvi not a DWF player. If you try torso twist everytime you get shot at and run into cover you will not get anything done just twoddle arround like a drunk obese woman on ice skates.
Even with IS weapons and a more agile mech like atlas, since the engine desync, if spend your time torso twisting instead of shooting you will just end up disorientating yourself , loose sight of the enemy and shoot little back.

[Athom83]

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 03:38 PM, said:

You know why simulator sux?? http://4eye-labs.net...bed92c4c2b4be59 that one always ends with is winning, while in reality we know how that would end.

I actually know why. You haven't frontloaded all the armor on the mechs like how everyone does it in game. When you do that, clan wins a lot more. Also, if you set the component targeting to "aim for XL ST" (like high tier players would realistically do), then clan win almost every time only losing 1 mech (only times IS win is when they successfully focus fire and clan players spread over all the Knights). User error when entering data is not the program's fault.

Edited by Athom83, 14 November 2017 - 05:46 PM.

[Athom83]

Troa Barton, on 14 November 2017 - 03:51 PM, said:

It's completely backwards that the Annihilators are less tanky than the Atlas given how huge and lumbering they are. If PGI insists that the Atlas is to be the tankiest mech make the Anni as tanky but not less so.

Well, considering the Annihilator had only 12.5 tons of armor while that Atlas had 19 tons of armor...

[Remover of Obstacles]

Novakaine, on 14 November 2017 - 04:42 AM, said:

I used to be afraid of assaults in the early years.
Now I just tend to panic when I see a pack of light backshooters.
And that's just plain arse backwards.

I wonder if moving to 8 vs 8 would help assaults.

[Tlords]

Raudo Testoman, on 14 November 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

Take real world battleships for example. They were made obsolete by faster, more agile missile cruisers and such.

Re-check your history. Aircraft carriers made battleships obsolete. Not agile missile cruisers. Missiles extended engagement ranges to something only battleships could do. Heck there's even discussion about bringing back battleships. More magazine capacity.

[Athom83]

Tlords, on 14 November 2017 - 06:15 PM, said:

Re-check your history. Aircraft carriers made battleships obsolete. Not agile missile cruisers. Missiles extended engagement ranges to something only battleships could do. Heck there's even discussion about bringing back battleships. More magazine capacity.

Bring back Battleships? No. Bringing back Battlecruisers on the other hand... a lot better option given new tech coming out (quantum stealth, railguns, and laser based anti-missile defenses).

[Shifty McSwift]

N0ni, on 13 November 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

The problem isn't really that assaults aren't tanky enough, it's that once someone on your team or enemy team sees one they focus fire to bring it down, so they don't have to deal with its firepower later as it closes the gap. In which, explains why one shouldn't tank in an assault alone.

Arguably if you are getting hit and your team and/or yourself aren't trading fire, it probably isn't true tanking in any sense, that is just getting hit, or walking out like Rambo to die alone.

And while this is true, that same ideal is why you can pick the toughest assault targets to draw fire during a push and have harder hitting lights etc. Not that it will always work for you, if I get a guaranteed shot on a smaller target that means their death or disablement for the rest of the game, you better believe I am taking that shot instead.

[Shifty McSwift]

In fact the idea of "focus down the big targets" is a call generally made on the move and/or on enemies on the move, as you; A; minimise the chance of having friendlies miss the target. B; Minimise their extra armor rates by focusing as a group. And C; They are the last targets you want to ignore and risk getting behind your lines.

Otherwise in most cases targets are just called when they are spotted, size doesn't really come into account in that first reaction.

In QP it all mostly tends to come apart, but you can still see it apply at times. The major issues there come in the disparity of styles and skill, and lack of communication. The old assault yelling "I pushed in where was my team" after the fact instead of letting anyone know as he was going to push in (or not realising he had 11 hill peepers). Or the old "I see an assault looking like he is about to push, go to push with him, and realise he was just peeping and is already back in cover when you get shot", instead of asking him what his intent was etc..

Also that extra total armor as an assault means F all to someone who refuses to twist, or just lets their back get cored out etc. The reasons lighter mechs survive at comparable rates is because they tend to at least move if not twist (or both), any kind of movement against most types of fire will save your bacon immensely, it seems like in bigger mechs people often just throw those tanking tactics out the window, assuming their extra armor will just magically save them from being cored out as they stare down targets.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 14 November 2017 - 07:42 PM.

[Troa Barton]

Remover of Obstacles, on 14 November 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

I wonder if moving to 8 vs 8 would help assaults.

It would, but it would also benefit everyone else too. I miss 8v8, here's hoping they bring back the old forest colony snow and frozen city with it.

Edited by Troa Barton, 15 November 2017 - 05:08 AM.

[Vonbach]

What they need to do is get rid of the engine decouple and let people torso twist properly
again. This would help assaults more than anything else.

[Athom83]

Vonbach, on 15 November 2017 - 05:29 AM, said:

What they need to do is get rid of the engine decouple and let people torso twist properly
again. This would help assaults more than anything else.

Or, you know, just fix their agility value and leave desync in. Please, lets not go back to the days of the ballerina Atlas (this is coming from an Atlas Pilot).

[Vonbach]

Athom83, on 15 November 2017 - 05:45 AM, said:

Or, you know, just fix their agility value and leave desync in. Please, lets not go back to the days of the ballerina Atlas (this is coming from an Atlas Pilot).

Thats nice so am I. I miss the Atlas not being obsolete. Its a 100 ron brawler that cant really brawl
anymore.

[James Argent]

"Rock is getting covered by paper. Buff rock!"

"Why not just have scissors standing by in case paper comes around?"

"That's crazy 'teamwork' talk...scissors can't be expected to stick together with rock. Scissors is off over there getting smashed by the other team's rock."

"But scissors would easily cut through paper. It's in scissor's best interest to protect rock."

"No, rock just needs to not fear paper so much. Buff rock!"