67 replies to this topic

[Tiewolf]

ForceUser, on 20 November 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

I decided to put together a clan 85t mech (Marauder IIC) that is in many ways comparable to the battlemaster build. Biggest drawback is worse hardpoints compared to the battlemaster but at least it's got a clan XL

Alpha: 55 damage
Optimal Range: 917m
Max range: 1834m
Alpha Duration: A decent bit over 1 second
Alpha at 1300m: 32 damage
Alpha at 1000m: 50 damage
Can alpha all 5 c-ERLL on Boreal without suffering any overheat damage? YES (82% heat)
Number of ERLL volleys (a 3 and then a 2) before overheating: 6 (ghost heat is fine on this build)
With a coolshot: 8

Like I said biggest differences between IS and Clan in this comparison is Clan XL vs IS XL, Clan hardpoints vs IS hardpoints, Clan has worse duration, IS has worse range, IS has better agility by a decent chunk, same speed and I guess IS gets a bit more tonnage to play with in CW. Relatively balanced all in all, almost as if the developers are actively balancing the game DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN.

ps. you can drop some of the range from the TC to get a 6th ERLL but I don't know if it'd help or not since you will do a solid 7%+ overheat damage if you override firing all 6 and you wont finish your beam duration without override. You could face time 2+2+2 but that's like 3 seconds of burn duration.

Heat?! You calculated ghost heat so the numbers look closer to the IS numbers as they are. They are not! Calculate dps without ghost heat and the better cooling due to more heat sinks on
the clan build over time. Then take the % based multiplier from skill tree where higher values (Clantech) profit more. Et voila plz tell me again with a strait face that it is only clan xl and balance is close...

[Armored Yokai]

CK16, on 20 November 2017 - 07:48 AM, said:

Battlemasters.

try 1036m triple ERLL summoners and stay far away, battlemasters are big and juicy and lack armor buffs (unless it's the arm)
(Only recommended on boreal vault on the giant rock behind the Gun)

[Y E O N N E]

Links to builds, please. Need to see the context of those numbers.

[ForceUser]

Tiewolf, on 20 November 2017 - 01:15 PM, said:

Heat?! You calculated ghost heat so the numbers look closer to the IS numbers as they are. They are not! Calculate dps without ghost heat and the better cooling due to more heat sinks on
the clan build over time. Then take the % based multiplier from skill tree where higher values (Clantech) profit more. Et voila plz tell me again with a strait face that it is only clan xl and balance is close...

I expected something like this. It's common for people invested in only one side to not be able to see the entire post.

The problem with firing the clan ERLL in a 2+2+1 fashion is that you suffer huge face time issues (3 seconds like I mentioned). This is a death penalty when facing off against much shorter duration IS ERLL. That is the context that I wrote my posts in as that's the entire point of the thread.

We already saw that the range profiles on the two mechs are very similar as is the alpha with a slight edge in both to the clan mech. In the case of the Battlemaster it's able to fire all it's weapons while only showing 20% of it's profile. This means it's able to to do all it's damage in a very short period of time thanks to the shorter duration and then quickly duck back fully behind covers (also note the higher agility, DOUBLE acceleration compared to the Marauder IIC in fact). The Marauder IIC however needs to show nearly it's entire profile and has half the agility in terms of acceleration. I went over this in detail but you must have missed it Now you're suggesting that compounding the longer duration on it's beams by face tanking for an additional 2 seconds is a good idea against a mech that can dump all it's damage in half the time?

The OP complained that IS was able to do something that Clans was not, the entire point of my posts was to show that both sides have setups that can do nearly the exact same thing so it's not a case of IS OR Clans having an unfair advantage, only in how you build and use what is available.

I don't give a flying heck about IS or Clans, I've always been a merc so go peddle you wares elsewhere.

Yeonne Greene, on 20 November 2017 - 03:14 PM, said:

Links to builds, please. Need to see the context of those numbers.

I'm sure you can figure them out.

[Y E O N N E]

ForceUser, on 20 November 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

I'm sure you can figure them out.

I probably can, but why leave that uncertainty there?

Also, the Clan stagger-fire solution is 3+2, same as the IS, who very rarely bring more than 5 ERLL and who rarely alpha even that. It is not 2+2+1. Even with ghost heat from 3, the Clan build will out-last the IS one in the fight against heat. Being able to stay engaged is what really gives the Clans the edge in map control with ERLL. If you are alpha-striking with those lasers as a normal mode of operation, you are depriving the team of battlefield presence and total DPS.

[ForceUser]

Yeonne Greene, on 20 November 2017 - 03:26 PM, said:

Also, the Clan stagger-fire solution is 3+2, same as the IS, who very rarely bring more than 5 ERLL and who rarely alpha even that. It is not 2+2+1. Even with ghost heat from 3, the Clan build will out-last the IS one in the fight against heat. Being able to stay engaged is what really gives the Clans the edge in map control with ERLL. If you are alpha-striking with those lasers as a normal mode of operation, you are depriving the team of battlefield presence and total DPS.

I agree completely. I can see situations where alpha firing all 5 from 0 heat could be the right call (A light standing still for a single second) and it's important to remember that both the Battlemaster and Marauder IIC builds can do so without blowing themselves up, it's not a feature exclusive to either.

This is the other problem that I often see happen in a 'Us vs Them / Clan vs IS' argument. If either has only ever exclusively played one side they actually have so little experience to base any statements on, only theory crafting that their arguments are poorly informed and often incorrect. That's why made I made such a clear point in my very first post about how important it is to PLAY the other side's mechs and to play the meta otherwise you're opinion is flawed form the outset. It's easy to attribute mystical OP powers to something you know jack all about or have zero experience playing as.

Edited by ForceUser, 20 November 2017 - 03:35 PM.

[panzer1b]

Thing is, ERLLs have become a staple weapon ever since they got burn time buffed (IS went from 1.25->1.1, clam from 1.5->1.35s). After that nerf the LPL has been all but obsoleted since the difference in burn time between ERLL and LPL is not as huge, but the tonnage saved is very much a big deal. Clam almost always goes either 5 or 6 ERLLs total, while IS goes for 5 since 6 is too heavy and doesnt really offer that much more benefits (cant bring a TC to boost range, cant bring large engine, cant bring enuff heatsinks). The things are brutal when you are sync firing from multiple mechs (many good units will do this) since even 20 points of damage adds up incredibly fast when its coming out of 4-5 mechs and is properly aimed at the CT or ST or whatever they choose to hit.

As for 2 shot cored at 1300, i doubt it was 1 mech (maybee 2 in same spot fired at once), even my TC7 5ERLL mad2c wont 2 shot a mech's CT at 1300m unless you stripped its armor down or have too much on the back (a common occurance actually, ive seen people with as much as 30 rear armor on CT).

[Gas Guzzler]

If you are getting outtraded, go back to cover and try to poke from another location that isn't being continuously monitored by half of the other team.

When I'm getting outtraded everywhere I go, its usually because I'm one of one or two people on my team that are actually trading, while everyone else is hiding with lurms or short range weapons. Because you know, people aren't smart enough to bring long range weapons on Boreal.

If I was Clan and wanted to do ER stuff, I would take a Supernova with 6 ERLL.

[Nightbird]

IS LPL was obsoleted because of 1 damage nerf, not duration.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nightbird, on 20 November 2017 - 05:07 PM, said:

IS LPL was obsoleted because of 1 damage nerf, not duration.

I would say that is the primary factor for the Clan one as well.

[Gas Guzzler]

ForceUser, on 20 November 2017 - 03:34 PM, said:

I agree completely. I can see situations where alpha firing all 5 from 0 heat could be the right call (A light standing still for a single second) and it's important to remember that both the Battlemaster and Marauder IIC builds can do so without blowing themselves up, it's not a feature exclusive to either.

This is the other problem that I often see happen in a 'Us vs Them / Clan vs IS' argument. If either has only ever exclusively played one side they actually have so little experience to base any statements on, only theory crafting that their arguments are poorly informed and often incorrect. That's why made I made such a clear point in my very first post about how important it is to PLAY the other side's mechs and to play the meta otherwise you're opinion is flawed form the outset. It's easy to attribute mystical OP powers to something you know jack all about or have zero experience playing as.

6 cERLL SNV-1, 31 DHS

Can fire 3 by 3 by 3 by 3 (132 damage) without overheating. Its epic. Oh, 5% duration quirk helps it too

[Muujig612]

This guy doesn't know about the sniping prowess of the Supernova, and cries about IS being OP, hahaha! Vorteex could teach you some lesson on sniping.

Edited by Muujig612, 20 November 2017 - 06:07 PM.

[ANOM O MECH]

Escef, on 20 November 2017 - 11:04 AM, said:

I had to Google that, never seen that variation on PEBKAC before.

Not sure if it is a Canadian thing but I had to look up PEBKAC the other day when Yeonne used it. PICNIC is what I thought was common.

[arcana75]

ForceUser, on 20 November 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

I put together a Battlemaster 1G build I would use in a a situation where I have 11 other people on coms and running the same build as I would and here's some fun numbers for you:

Alpha: 54 damage
Optimal Range: 880m
Max range: 1760m
Alpha Duration: Less than 1 second
Alpha at 1300m: 28 damage
Alpha at 1000m: 47 damage
Can alpha all 6 ERLL on Boreal without suffering any overheat damage? YES (well usually)
Number of 3 ERLL volleys before overheating: 6
With a coolshot: 8
% of mech that needs to be visible to fire all it's weapons: Around 20%

This is like having Dual Heavy Gauss that has an optimal range of 900m. I can understand how an entire unit of this will rip someone who's ignorant of the possibilities in MWO to shreds instantly.

PS. The exact same thing is just as if not more effective on Clan side.

ForceUser, on 20 November 2017 - 11:56 AM, said:

I decided to put together a clan 85t mech (Marauder IIC) that is in many ways comparable to the battlemaster build. Biggest drawback is worse hardpoints compared to the battlemaster but at least it's got a clan XL

Alpha: 55 damage
Optimal Range: 917m
Max range: 1834m
Alpha Duration: A decent bit over 1 second
Alpha at 1300m: 32 damage
Alpha at 1000m: 50 damage
Can alpha all 5 c-ERLL on Boreal without suffering any overheat damage? YES (82% heat)
Number of ERLL volleys (a 3 and then a 2) before overheating: 6 (ghost heat is fine on this build)
With a coolshot: 8

Like I said biggest differences between IS and Clan in this comparison is Clan XL vs IS XL, Clan hardpoints vs IS hardpoints, Clan has worse duration, IS has worse range, IS has better agility by a decent chunk, same speed and I guess IS gets a bit more tonnage to play with in CW. Relatively balanced all in all, almost as if the developers are actively balancing the game DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN.

ps. you can drop some of the range from the TC to get a 6th ERLL but I don't know if it'd help or not since you will do a solid 7%+ overheat damage if you override firing all 6 and you wont finish your beam duration without override. You could face time 2+2+2 but that's like 3 seconds of burn duration.

Eye-opening! Thanks for that! Even if it weren't pinpoint, 47-50 damage at 1000m is ... I have no words but it all makes sense now.

Edited by arcana75, 20 November 2017 - 08:37 PM.

[SeventhSL]

As a Clan Loyalist, I feel that I get out traded ERLL vs C-ERLL in faction warfare. It is normally five ERLL verse four C-ERLL so that comparison is below using raw values without, builds, skills, quirks, etc.

Damage:
5xERLL at 675m is 45 damage. This is 1 damage better than 4xC-ERLL at the same range.
5xERLL at 740m is 40.7 damage. This is 3.3 damage worse than 4xC-ERLL at the same range.
5xERLL at 1000m is 23.3. damage. This is 5.2 damage worse than 4xC-ERLL at the same range.
5xERLL at 1350m is 0 damage. This is 7.3 damage worse than 4xC-ERLL at the same range.

Clan defiantly has an advantage in damage over 675m, but it isn’t much. Nothing like the advantage when comparing medium range vomit. A 10% range quirk, like that Battle Master 1G has, completely removes the damage advantage from Clan. 5xERLL will then out damage 4xC-ERLL at all ranges.

Duration:
5xERLL alpha strike is 1.1 seconds. Fired to avoid ghost heat, 3x2xERLL is 1.6 seconds. This 0.25 second better than the 4xC-ERLL and 2x2xC-ERLL respectively.
5xERLL alpha strike vs a 2x2xC-ERLL is 0.5 seconds better.
3x2xERLL vs a 4xC-ERLL is 0.25 seconds worse.

IS defiantly has the advantage in duration but the question here is how much is 0.25 of shielding worth? If it is worth just 3.3 damage out of 44 then it effectively negates the clan damage advantage as it should.

Heat:
3x2xERLL and 2x2xC-ERLL are both 40 heat.
5xERLL alpha strike is 64 heat. This is 4.8 heat worse than the 4xC-ERLL alpha strike.

Not a big difference but heat is a really hard thing to measure. So much depends on the total build, the map and how your using it. In long range trades people are generally poking from behind cover where they have ample time to cool so it really doesn’t tend to matter.

From this we can see that the IS stack up well in long range trades. It is surprisingly balanced. That is until you factor in the hit points the extra drop deck tonnage provides. The small advantage in Clan damage is utterly negated by the drop deck tonnage. On top of this you have IS range, armour and structure quirks.

Bottom line. IS out trade Clan at range at when swapping ERLL. If you are Clan just don’t do it. Get to medium range where you trade at an advantage.

Edit: And NO!!! Just because IS is better at something doesn't mean they should be nerffed.

Edited by SeventhSL, 20 November 2017 - 10:00 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

Mmm, you guys sure know how to make FW sound even less appealing than it already is.

[Tiewolf]

ForceUser, on 20 November 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

The OP complained that IS was able to do something that Clans was not, the entire point of my posts was to show that both sides have setups that can do nearly the exact same thing so it's not a case of IS OR Clans having an unfair advantage, only in how you build and use what is available.

I don't give a flying heck about IS or Clans, I've always been a merc so go peddle you wares elsewhere.

I don`t care about clan or IS either. I only care about a good game experience and balance is a part of that for me. If IS would be op i would argue to buff clans.

The thing is that you used a numeric example that look super close at the first glance. But the numbers are only consistent over the artifical time period and usage of the builds you estimated. A game last longer then 1 alpha, has multible targets you can shoot and has a lot other factors like more ecm on clan side, range etc. to account. Facetime is a very important variable. Yes, but if the enemy mechs are out of range, got no more heat to fire their own weapons or not facing you directly it is not a big issue to have a bit more facetime. Less firepower due to less cooling over time is a greater issue for the outcome of a game, if there are allways targets availalble (which is most of the time a given in a 12v12 scenario).
My point is that a comparison between builds that only focuses on variables and usages that suggest similar performance, plus neglecting all the other advantages of the marauder that are not only clan-xl but better cooling, better hitboxes, etc., is an unequal comparison to me and misleading.

In your overall point, that Clan can do similar things than IS, you are absolutely right. But IS can`t do the same things Clan can. That would be ok if IS could do something better than Clan that has an actual battlevalue. But as far as i can see there is no such thing that really matters in the outcome of a game.

Edited by Tiewolf, 21 November 2017 - 08:19 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

ForceUser, on 20 November 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

I put together a Battlemaster 1G build I would use in a a situation where I have 11 other people on coms and running the same build as I would and here's some fun numbers for you:

Alpha: 54 damage
Optimal Range: 880m
Max range: 1760m
Alpha Duration: Less than 1 second
Alpha at 1300m: 28 damage
Alpha at 1000m: 47 damage
Can alpha all 6 ERLL on Boreal without suffering any overheat damage? YES (well usually)
Number of 3 ERLL volleys before overheating: 6
With a coolshot: 8
% of mech that needs to be visible to fire all it's weapons: Around 20%

This is like having Dual Heavy Gauss that has an optimal range of 900m. I can understand how an entire unit of this will rip someone who's ignorant of the possibilities in MWO to shreds instantly.

PS. The exact same thing is just as if not more effective on Clan side.

Given that the point of ghost heat is to stop people from dealing too much damage in one alpha, it clearly isnt doing its job if people can alpha 5-6 ER LLs without any penalties. Firing 5 or more ER LLs should give you overheat damage. The extra heat is not an issue if you are sniping at 800+m since there is more than ample time to cool down. If you want to fire 5x ER LLs, you should be forced to wait for the ghost heat timer.

And the BLR-1G needs to be nerfed, right now no other IS assault comes close. There should be more long range options other than "BLR-1G spam".

For that matter, long range needs more options other than ER LL spam. Gauss, PPCs, AC2s, LRMs, none of them come close.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 21 November 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Aiden Skye]

Also If you're trading blows with a Battlemaster in a 65 tonner, proportionally you're Losing more armor than he is as 65 ton mechs really are not that tanky.

[Y E O N N E]

Jun Watarase, on 21 November 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

Given that the point of ghost heat is to stop people from dealing too much damage in one alpha, it clearly isnt doing its job if people can alpha 5-6 ER LLs without any penalties. Firing 5 or more ER LLs should give you overheat damage. The extra heat is not an issue if you are sniping at 800+m since there is more than ample time to cool down. If you want to fire 5x ER LLs, you should be forced to wait for the ghost heat timer.

And the BLR-1G needs to be nerfed, right now no other IS assault comes close. There should be more long range options other than "BLR-1G spam".

For that matter, long range needs more options other than ER LL spam. Gauss, PPCs, AC2s, LRMs, none of them come close.

The BLR-1G needs no such nerf. The fact of the matter is that IS ERLL are garbage against Clan ERLL unless they have a 10% range quirk to help them out. That range boost is a rare commodity these days, and the BLR-1G is one of two IS Assaults with the appropriate combination of hardpoints and geometry that possesses it, the other being the STK-5S. That is why it gets taken. It also happens to have more build flexibility than the Stalker due to engine cap diffetences, so more people have them and prefer them.

As for the final statement, patently false. UAC/2 boats pretty much hard-counter ERLL boats; that's why MX-90s show up against SNV-1s. In the three or four seconds it takes to expose and fire ERLLs, you can rip 48-72 damage into them with six and it is easy to concentrate that damage. ER PPC poptarting also partially foils ERLL boats, especially slow ones that can't juke. Finally, the ERLL+Gauss combo remains one of the most potent combinations in the game across a variety of 'Mechs, on both sides.

You have options. They work, battle-tested and proven over and over again.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 November 2017 - 11:13 AM.