96 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Using my favourite mech as an example: Mad Dog-Prime. Nobody can say this mech is op.

1) It comes with Ferro armour instead of the better Endo structure which would free up some space to add DHS, ammo, or armour.

2) It doesn't have the DHS to run 2xLPL's never mind the other weapons as well.

3) It has 2xLRM20's and only 2tons of ammo.

4) It is seriously under armoured.

5) If you want to run the stock build being able to change omnipods means nothing, so currently clan players who want to use the stock weapon loadouts are forced to play completely stock mechs, unlike battlemechs which can keep the same weapons and change engine, structure, armour, etc.

It should be possible for Omnimechs that don't change pods to be customized like battlemechs to help out under-performing mechs.

Edited by Wolfways, 26 November 2017 - 01:09 AM.

[Exard3k]

I don't see the point....clan mechs vastly outperform any IS stock mechs. And if you are against clanners, well...they got omnimechs too.

On the other hand....mad dog got quirks to compensate the lack of endo steel.

And the heat management....try other omnis like hellbringer or dire wolf. Heat management is always challenging in stock mode, even with clanners that all have double heat sinks.

Final note....stock mode isn't supposed to be balanced. It's about agreeing on certain rules that keep the match fun for everyone as all mechs have a loadout made for TT, some perform better in a game like MWO than others.

edit: If you are not talking about stock mode.......if you stick to the omnipods from the Prime, you decent quirks for compensation. The -10% heat for pulse and the -spread is really good. I'm running 2xALRM20 and 4x med pulse on my MDD. Good build, good mech. neither overperforming nor underperforming.

Edited by Exard3k, 26 November 2017 - 12:34 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Here we go again...

[Wolfways]

Exard3k, on 26 November 2017 - 12:22 AM, said:

I don't see the point....clan mechs vastly outperform any IS stock mechs. And if you are against clanners, well...they got omnimechs too.

On the other hand....mad dog got quirks to compensate the lack of endo steel.

And the heat management....try other omnis like hellbringer or dire wolf. Heat management is always challenging in stock mode, even with clanners that all have double heat sinks.

Final note....stock mode isn't supposed to be balanced. It's about agreeing on certain rules that keep the match fun for everyone as all mechs have a loadout made for TT, some perform better in a game like MWO than others.

This isn't about a stock mode. It's about Omnimechs that don't have their omnipods changed are stock mechs and you don't get a choice about what is used, unlike battlemechs (IS and clan).

Do quirks compensate for the lack of ammo, DHS, or armour? Not even remotely.
Stock omnimechs underperform because you cannot change anything, unlike battlelechs which you can get to work fine by changing whatever you like.

Yeonne Greene, on 26 November 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

Here we go again...

Yeah, sucks when people want a balanced game...

[Exard3k]

Again...I don't see the point. Stock mechs are mechs that have the loadout according to Battletech.

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:38 AM, said:

It's about Omnimechs that don't have their omnipods changed are stock mechs and you don't get a choice about what is used, unlike battlemechs (IS and clan).

Uhm....if you stick to the mdd-prime omnipods, you can just change loadout within the pods as you like. If you want more armor or ammo, downgrade your equipment and get more ammo/armor. As simple as that. As you are not talking about stock mode, you are free to do so.

Edited by Exard3k, 26 November 2017 - 12:44 AM.

[Wolfways]

Exard3k, on 26 November 2017 - 12:43 AM, said:

Again...I don't see the point. Stock mechs are mechs that have the loadout according to Battletech.



Uhm....if you stick to the mdd-prime omnipods, you can just change loadout within the pods as you like. If you want more armor or ammo, downgrade your equipment and get more ammo/armor. As simple as that.

There is no equipment to downgrade except the weapons. That is my point.
It is hugely unfair that battlemechs can be customized and omnimechs cannot.

Edited by Wolfways, 26 November 2017 - 12:46 AM.

[Spheroid]

What an insincere rant. You have been registered here six years and have 6,000+ posts. You should know exactly how the game plays and what customization is possible.

I would be very worried if you have learned nothing.

FYI ferro in place of endo saves a grand total of .5 tons assuming max armor on a sixty tonner. Big deal.

Edited by Spheroid, 26 November 2017 - 12:54 AM.

[Appogee]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:38 AM, said:

Do quirks compensate for the lack of ammo, DHS, or armour and lighter weapons, lighter equipement, generally longer engagement ranges, survivable XL engines?

Yes. In fact, they more than compensate.

[Exard3k]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:45 AM, said:

There is no equipment to downgrade except the weapons. That is my point.

Then downgrade the weapons. You can't expect a 60ton mech to field all these weapons with plenty of ammo and armor (in MWO terms) and double lurms. You need a heavier mech for this.The MDD-Prime loadout is clearly favoring offensive capabilities and is sacrificing armor, ammo and heat dissipation for this. Most clan mechs have this kind of trade-off in stock layouts.

And if you want to keep the large pulses...you can downgrade lurms, ammo and armor for that. If you want expensive lasers, you have to pay for them.

Edited by Exard3k, 26 November 2017 - 12:52 AM.

[Wolfways]

Appogee, on 26 November 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

Yes. In fact, they more than compensate.

lol go have fun playing a stock MDD-Prime.

[Appogee]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:52 AM, said:

lol go have fun playing a stock MDD-Prime.

Why would I do that? I have plenty of other stock Clan Mechs that perform better.

Just as some of my stock IS Mechs perform better than others.

Edited by Appogee, 26 November 2017 - 12:54 AM.

[Wolfways]

Exard3k, on 26 November 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

Then downgrade the weapons. You can't expect a 60ton mech to field all these weapons with plenty of ammo and armor (in MWO terms) and double lurms. You need a heavier mech for this.The MDD-Prime loadout is clearly favoring offensive capabilities and is sacrificing armor, ammo and heat dissipation for this. Most clan mechs have this kind of trade-off in stock layouts.

And if you want to keep the large pulses...you can downgrade lurms, ammo and armor for that. If you want expensive lasers, you have to pay for them.

And you can compensate for the same things in battlemechs by customizing them. You cannot with omnimechs.

[Khobai]

Quote

It should be possible for Omnimechs that don't change pods to be customized like battlemechs to help out under-performing mechs.

dunno about that

but omnimechs should have omnihardpoints which can take any type of weapons

every omnimech should have 1-2 omnihardpoints. these would replace existing hardpoints not be additional harpdoints.

IS omnimechs, when they add them, should have omnihardpoints too


omnihardpoints would also help solve the pay2win problem for clan hero omnipods

for example, every variant of the kitfox could just have 1 omnihardpoint in each side torso and the omnihardpoints would replace the energy hardpoints on the purifier. that way the kitfox purifier wouldnt be pay2win

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 12:59 AM.

[Appogee]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:54 AM, said:

And you can compensate for the same things in battlemechs by customizing them. You cannot with omnimechs.

Because those Mechs already have the inherent advantages of lighter weapons and equipment, survivable XL engines, longer weapon ranges, and generally, many more hardpoints, vs Battlemechs.

The locked upgrades on Clan Mechs are to offset the inherent other advantages of Clan Mechs.

[Wolfways]

Spheroid, on 26 November 2017 - 12:50 AM, said:

What an insincere rant. You have been registered here six years and have 6,000+ posts. You should know exactly how the game plays and what customization is possible.

I would be very worried if you have learned nothing.

FYI ferro in place of endo saves a grand total of .5 tons assuming max armor on a sixty tonner. Big deal.

I've learned that you cannot customize an omnimech if you keep the stock weapons, but you can on any other battlemech.

[Khobai]

Quote

The locked upgrades on Clan Mechs are to offset the inherent other advantages of Clan Mechs.

clan battlemechs dont have locked upgrades though.

thats why clan omnimechs are worse than clan battlemechs, except in the few cases where its a perfect omnimech

which is why omnimechs could use omnihardpoints to help give them an advantage over battlemechs. IS omnimechs should get omnihardpoints also to help give them an advantage over IS battlemechs.

Quote

I've learned that you cannot customize an omnimech if you keep the stock weapons, but you can on any other battlemech.

maybe the set of 8 quirks should only require 6 of the 8 parts to get the full quirks.

that way you could swap out two omnipods without penalty.

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 01:08 AM.

[Exard3k]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

I've learned that you cannot customize an omnimech if you keep the stock weapons, but you can on any other battlemech.

So you are not talking about stock mechs, but about stock weaponry. That's a difference and confusing, you should point out your desires more clearly.

You either keep everything, then it's stock or you change something, then its not stock anymore. Quite obvious....

If you change an engine from a HBK-IIC, it's not stock anymore. Same as downgrading a lrg pulse to a med pulse in a mdd-prime

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

dunno about that

Really?

Khobai, on 06 April 2017 - 08:26 PM, said:

I personally think "pure" omnimechs should have unlocked equipment. Since pure variants give up the advantage of being an omnimech by not using pods from other variants. which basically makes them normal battlemechs, hence why their equipment should be unlocked.

So like a direwolf prime with all prime omnipods would have its equipment unlocked

But a direwolf prime with direwolf-B side torsos would have locked equipment.

That change would make it so omnimechs are no longer completely disadvantaged vs battlemechs.

[Wolfways]

Exard3k, on 26 November 2017 - 01:02 AM, said:

So you are not talking about stock mechs, but about stock weaponry. That's a difference and confusing, you should point out your desires more clearly.

You either keep everything, then it's stock or you change something, then its not stock anymore. Quite obvious....

If you change an engine from a HBK-IIC, it's not stock anymore. Same as downgrading a lrg pulse to a med pulse in a mdd-prime

Changed the op to make it more obvious.

[Khobai]

Quote

I personally think "pure" omnimechs should have unlocked equipment. Since pure variants give up the advantage of being an omnimech by not using pods from other variants. which basically makes them normal battlemechs, hence why their equipment should be unlocked.

yeah that was an idea i had at one time before they added set of 8 quirks.

then they added set of 8 quirks to reward the pure omnimechs instead

im fine with the set of 8 quirks. I just think they should only require 6 of the 8 parts instead of all 8.

and I think omnimechs should have 1-2 omnihardpoints each.

that would make omnimechs sufficiently versatile compared to battlemechs. and omnimechs should not be strictly inferior to battlemechs.

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 01:18 AM.