179 replies to this topic

[JigglyMoobs]

Tarogato, on 26 November 2017 - 03:30 PM, said:

Combining this chart with this chart...






At least it's consistent...

The size would be OK if the mechs have a bit extra downward pitch. It's the combination of motion range and height that's the problem.

[Trenchbird]

JigglyMoobs, on 26 November 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

First of all, look up my stats. I'm very good at killing mechs of all sorts in both assaults and lights, and I'm good at hunting down assaults in lights or defending against lights in assaults. Even against the best light/assault pilots around.

I have done this since open beta.

In either case I have to work at it, which is not a problem.

In this case the problem is there's a specific situation where one mech cannot fight back against another, which is not right.

I once got damaged pretty badly by a light who took advantage of my quad PPC Banshee (New player syndrome, this was a *long* time ago for me.), and I couldn't hurt him at all after he closed.

And not that I've ever run many LRM boats, but IS LRM boats and Clan ATM boats cannot damage units at point blank for the same reason. I capitalize on that rather frequently when I brawl. So should they start getting point-blank damage?

Now, I can see why someone says yes. Self-defense is a typical point. But the thing is, it's better that there's some rock-paper-scissors in this game; Even if a light killing an assault is 'unfair' to the assault/LRM/ATM boat, there's several things that said mech should have had going for it at some point;

EDIT; To add some clarity to the rock-paper-scissors, I know it's more of a web in MWO than a cycle. So maybe 'rock paper scissors lizard spock' is a better comparison.

- Firing on the light beforehand. Not always possible.
- Having a teammate help out. Good teamplay tends to be a must-have; Likewise, it's not always there.
- Unlocked arms. Not always possible or viable, but I've killed one or two lights who figured that my 'mechs height prevented me from firing Snubs or something at the light. And they were wrong. Streaks + unlocked arms for applicable mechs also can apply here if they can hold a lock.

Edited by Catten Hart, 26 November 2017 - 03:59 PM.

[YueFei]

All mechs generally should be able to pitch farther down than they do now.

Mechs are supposed to be able to execute bows.

The most sensible way to do this would be to allow mechs to pitch farther forward (not farther up), but if they exceed the nominal limit (current pitch angle limit), their mech is limited to 50% of its top speed, and turn rate and accel/decel are also reduced by half, or something like that (so you don't get mechs leaning forward to minimize their profile while running around at top speed).

Sometimes it's silly when you take the high ground and then you can't pitch forward far enough to shoot at the enemies below you.

Edited by YueFei, 26 November 2017 - 04:04 PM.

[JigglyMoobs]

Catten, those are weapon specific limitations, not chassis specific once.

Unlocked arms don't work if you can't see what you are shooting at.

Most teammates in tier 1 qp are not skilled enough to shoot a leg hugging commando without hurting the friendly mech. They actually don't even see stealth commandos. Now, if you have someone like me on your team, you're in luck, except if you font manage to ask for help, which actually happens despite explicit instructions on asking for help in that specific situation.

Finally, you have to consider role specialization. LRMs and atms are designed to support. Direct fire mechs are designed to snipe and brawl. Are you now going to make a specific small mech impossible for assaults to brawl against? That's over specialization in a game where you cannot determine team makeup every game， and detracts too much from gameplay.

[JigglyMoobs]

YueFei, on 26 November 2017 - 04:04 PM, said:

All mechs generally should be able to pitch farther down than they do now.

Mechs are supposed to be able to execute bows.

The most sensible way to do this would be to allow mechs to pitch farther forward (not farther up), but if they exceed the nominal limit (current pitch angle limit), their mech is limited to 50% of its top speed, and turn rate and accel/decel are also reduced by half, or something like that (so you don't get mechs leaning forward to minimize their profile while running around at top speed).

Sometimes it's silly when you take the high ground and then you can't pitch forward far enough to shoot at the enemies below you.

Exactly. This limitation also greatly contribute towards the NASCAR problem.

One team take top in a map like hpg. Then half the teammates find that they can't actually shoot down. What do they do? They have to drop to level ground to shoot the enemy. If you have hills this naturally means NASCAR around the hill.

And people wonder why NASCAR happens on maps like hpg, canyons, etc.

Give 10%-20% more pitch down and the commando problem is probably solved. More importantly, all of a sudden you will see much less NASCAR.

[Nightbird]

Catten Hart, on 26 November 2017 - 03:45 PM, said:

Funny, I didn't know I was in Bizarro world. Had to fix that for you again.

Especially because heavies and mediums both have more active players, and most mechs that are considered to be 'the best' are in those two weight classes, while people constantly bemoan the lacking survability and mobility of assaults.

(For the sake of fairness, people also complain about light survivability. And there are crappy light chassis. But there are a lot more viable lights, again.)

And before you say 'But assaults always have more players!', this is because there's a placebo effect in place for assaults. They look like they have a ton of armor and weapons on paper, but the inherent mechanics of MWO make it so that the mobility of assaults tend to make them crappier in general. This in turn makes lesser skilled players in lower tiers-the majority of the playerbase-gravitate towards the 'Assaults will make me live longer!' mindset.

Just because some bads can't pilot Assaults doesn't mean they're bad, stats show Assaults performing significantly better than all other weight classes.

https://mwomercs.com...-and-suggestion

[Armored Yokai]

Assaults are naturally weak vs Lights unless you mount Streaks

[Trissila]

And then, since the commando is "humping your leg" and is thus stationary with its back facing outward, someone on your team turns around and one-shots it. Problem solved.

[Snazzy Dragon]

Leghumping would be less of an issue if there was a way to toggle the minimap on/off.

Looking down is hard enough without it blocking the view.

[Big Tin Man]

Allow mechs to squat or kneel. Problem(s) solved.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Nightbird, on 26 November 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

Just because some bads can't pilot Assaults doesn't mean they're bad, stats show Assaults performing significantly better than all other weight classes.

https://mwomercs.com...-and-suggestion

That statement may be too sweeping. I'd personally like to see the difference between Clan and IS assaults before I said everything was fine. I'd expect there to be a significant difference in their performance, with certain Clan chassis skewing the numbers up. There's a big difference in perspective based on what you pilot.

As far as the actual topic goes, light mechs being too small to see in some of the bigger assaults seems like it's fitting. It's frustrating but the entire book on light mech combat is about fighting assault mechs in unfair ways. A light mech that comes at an assault mech in its forward arc and when it's not distracted shooting at something else will super die. I'm not particularly bent out of shape about it because piloting light mechs, particularly the ones that actually can get under the guns of big mechs, is hard.

Personally I'm not inclined to say that mechs like the Cyclops or the Annihilator deserve that weakness, given the towering profile is in itself a huge drawback. I'm not going to say that they should nerf the Commando because of it. Or the Locust, or the Urbanmech. That's simply because many of the best assault chassis don't have that weakness.

Edited by Fleeb the Mad, 26 November 2017 - 07:11 PM.

[Wintersdark]

VitiateDiabolus, on 26 November 2017 - 03:05 PM, said:

The B33f killing Kodiaks in a stealth Commando on Polar Highlands.

First Kodiak at around 1 min. I guess this isn't technically leg humping, but anyone who hasn't been murdered as a low agility assault by a light has either not run into any good light pilots or only plays with a team. In something heavy and sluggish like a Kodiak the light pilot HAS to make a mistake to even get hit. That, or your team comes to your rescue.

What? No. I've fought many good light pilots, and have been around long enough and played enough to know the difference. In any assault where I'm physically able to fire at a light, I am never concerned one on one with one. If I'm going to die to a light, it's because I can't turn to fight him (for example, engaged with bigger goes to the front, etc) but there isn't any way you can prevent my hitting them. Lights moving fast are not hard to shoot when you've done it for a while.

This is of course excepting Mr. Moobs complaint re: literally un-hittable commandos leg humping, though.

But a light zipping around? One on one, I'll take a Kodiak against a Locust without fear. If I'm going to lose, it's because the opposing player is much better than me (obviously entirely possible) but he'd have won in pretty much anything else too.

I'm making no claims to greatness here, don't get me wrong, but its really not hard to shoot lights and regardless of skill they cannot avoid fire (again, cockpit height/leg humping aside) completely.

With the above said, if you can get into a position by leg humping where it's physically impossible to bring even your arm weapons to bear on a light who's just ramming into your legs, that's a problem. An inability to hit close, short mechanical with high torso mounts and limited pitch IS NOT A PROBLEM. That's why we have arms. But if they can get to a point where you cannot hit them at all and they're invulnerable, that is a serious issue.

[Wintersdark]

JigglyMoobs, on 26 November 2017 - 04:13 PM, said:

Catten, those are weapon specific limitations, not chassis specific once.

Unlocked arms don't work if you can't see what you are shooting at.

Yup, this is unacceptable. Limited torso pitch? Too bad. That's a decision you made when building your mech. Impossible to see them and hit them with unlocked arms without fiddly BS? That's a serious problem from a game design perspective. You can't even make realism arguments (even assuming that MWO mechs are as agile as MWO mechs not BT mechs) because if collision worked correctly the assault should be able to crush such a tiny light riding its legs.

[Muujig612]

JigglyMoobs, on 26 November 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

Since the rescale the size of the commando has become very small. This leads to a problem where if a commando is hugging an assault mech, several types of assault mech, eg annihilators, Cyclops, are actually unable to see the commando from the cockpit or shoot it from torso mounted weapons.

Recently, this has lead some people to adopt extremely cheesy leg humping tactics where a commando simply glues itself to the leg of an assault and shoots the assault with srms. This has been made easier with the introduction of stealth armor. A commando can simply arm just enough missile ammo to leg one or two assaults (while devoting all other weight to srms, engines and stealth armor) and suicide attack the slowest mechs on the team.

Just wait until the Piranha is released. It is even smaller than the Commando.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

As Wintersdark says, an assault should just be able to squash one of MWO's midget light mechs. Maybe a full throttle collision should do 20 damage per second to the light and 5 per second to the assault?

[Jackal Noble]

No. Just fix the damn hitboxes or registry, or whatever. Commandos are annoying AF. Not because they can't be hit, but because they don't die when they are hit. Repeatedly.

[JC Daxion]

Having played commandos for years, i will say they are not OP.. But the leg humping thing you are talking about is an issue and that is because a small mech should not beable to block a large one.

They really need to add either walk over damage, or push lighter mechs out of the way.

It's a broken mechanic of the game, and not the mechs fault. I made another thread about this exact issue... about legging.



that said, reading "test of vengeance" right now.. in the books opening a little elemental takes down an atlas!

Davey vs Goliath my friend

Edited by JC Daxion, 27 November 2017 - 05:02 AM.

[K O Z A K]

Revis Volek, on 26 November 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

Just allow mechs to kick.


Punt them into your firing arc.

I would spend every drop looking for an urbie to leg so I can walk around the map kicking a can

[Tarogato]

JC Daxion, on 27 November 2017 - 05:00 AM, said:

a small mech should not beable to block a large one.

If you've ever lived with cats or an ankle-biter dog, you'd probably know that even small lightweight objects can completely block and trip large bipedal humans. =P

[Kangarad]

KGC users will note that this is infact not a new problem.
even before the resize that mech could be humped to death by almost any light.