247 replies to this topic

[CygnusX7]

If you have a problem with HLL's, stop standing still.

[Athom83]

valrond, on 29 November 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

So? I wouldn't call putting TWO HLL boating, would you? Can you put 4 or even 6 of them like LPL or ERLL?

Yes, you can. You'd never fire as rapidly but you can.

Jun Watarase, on 29 November 2017 - 12:22 PM, said:

Wait a minute, since when do UAC jam quirks affect RACs? RACs can fire for at least 5s before jamming, thats more than enough damage to take out a side torso in that time.

They seem to do in testing my Orion V. I remember sometimes when I held the RAC in redline firing for 8-10 seconds after filling the jam bar.

[FupDup]

Athom83, on 29 November 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

They seem to do in testing my Orion V. I remember sometimes when I held the RAC in redline firing for 8-10 seconds after filling the jam bar.

That's probably just RNGesus doing his thing rather than the quirk having an impact.

[panzer1b]

Honestly, id just like the HLL with medium class weapons (and leave the cERLL and cLPL alone so that the old builds can still be done). The weapon was (in my eyes at least) intended as a solution to mechs with stupidly low hardpoint counts, so that they become a little less bad (shadowcat comes to mind specifically).

The real issue is that its so stupidly high alfa strike, and can be combined with ERMLs for absurdly high alfa strike with 0 penalties at all. That and the duration, while lousy, isnt actually long enough that you start trading unfavorably or anything, itll still do more damage then the LPL per tick and thus is better for trading (and it offers free dmg if you manage to hold the entire 1.55s duration on target).

Link the HLL (and only the HLL) with medium lasers by ghost heat, and the biggest annoyance/balance issue goes away, and the max alfa strike becomes a hair over 60 which is managable and what we had b4 the HLL existed...

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 29 November 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

For RACs the skill tree makes the jam bar dissipate faster. The jam coodown is only affected for UACs.

Jam bar, cooldown on jam, it's all time spent not making bang bang bang and as such sad time.

[Grus]

Athom83, on 29 November 2017 - 05:56 AM, said:

Do you not see the hypocrisy/stupidity of your statement here? "Its just fine" right into "If we had a better option", meaning that it is just fine being the best option?



Except that they do jam, quite easily and soon in fact. Only mechs with hefty jam reduction quirks can keep them redlined for a while (and even then sometimes they jam as soon as it goes red). RAC/2s are basically useless for their weight and heat, while RAC/5s are okay-ish. And the blinding is one of there only redeeming qualitys, yet the UAC/2 does it far better.



And they are either very low damage per shot, have a very short range, or fire in salvos. cGauss is vastly better in most situations, and is so cool you can pair it with heavy lasers easily.

I have a warhammer with 2rac5's and it's Insane how fast things melt with them. And the jam time let alone chance isn't that bad due to if and when they do, my target is so wrecked or lost a st that their return fire is manigabe till it come back online.. then it's back to feasting.

Maybe I got hell lucky ever time I've taken it out... But damn them things eat.

But back to HLL since most builds revolve around 2 of them I don't see how or why they are a problem. If we could fire 4 or 6 of them at a time I'd say oh he'll yes that crazy.. But we can't.

I mean this damage can be spread, unlike using dual Hgauss where it's pinpoint....

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 29 November 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

In a knife fight the HMGs give the edge, especially once armor is open in one location.

If I've got distance to close the first shots at over 340m clinch it. You're starting that fight almost 30 pts of armor down and you're not going to get the 15 seconds of sustained DPS you'd need to catch up.

That's where the MGs, LMG or HMG clinch the deal. Against a bigger, slower mech you can disengage from at will it's less of an issue but against another light the MGs and JJs give the Cheetah better jinking to throw aim and endless DPS without heatcap.
With heavies it's 11.28 DPS burst and 8.4 DPS with 0 heat. For the LMGs it's only 7.08 but you get 2 more DHS, which helps you keep the HMLs longer and more critically you joust, keeping out of optimal mpl range as much as possible. Flavor varies but advantage is there. There's no real opportunity cost with MGs so it's got a real edge there.

Now add in a flamer.

So, basically, in a 1v1 the ACH can just force the WLF to engage it. That means it's going to be short-range, where the ACH can apply heat to the WLF while damaging it. WLF then has to cut his output pretty much immediately, while the ACH keeps going full-tilt. Even when it's heat-capped, the ACH still has 8.4 DPS from those HMGs. It's savage.

valrond, on 29 November 2017 - 08:27 AM, said:

So? I wouldn't call putting TWO HLL boating, would you? Can you put 4 or even 6 of them like LPL or ERLL?

Does it matter that you can't put 4 or 6 together when:

A.) Just two do the damage of four of those ERLL

B.) Even six LL doesn't match the Clan alpha

C.) You can still boat the already-more-powerful cERLL?

[Khobai]

panzer1b, on 29 November 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Honestly, id just like the HLL with medium class weapons (and leave the cERLL and cLPL alone so that the old builds can still be done). The weapon was (in my eyes at least) intended as a solution to mechs with stupidly low hardpoint counts, so that they become a little less bad (shadowcat comes to mind specifically).

The real issue is that its so stupidly high alfa strike, and can be combined with ERMLs for absurdly high alfa strike with 0 penalties at all. That and the duration, while lousy, isnt actually long enough that you start trading unfavorably or anything, itll still do more damage then the LPL per tick and thus is better for trading (and it offers free dmg if you manage to hold the entire 1.55s duration on target).

Link the HLL (and only the HLL) with medium lasers by ghost heat, and the biggest annoyance/balance issue goes away, and the max alfa strike becomes a hair over 60 which is managable and what we had b4 the HLL existed...

If you do that, players will just use CERLL instead of CHLL.

Instead of x2 CHLL and x4 CERML builds doing 64 damage, youll instead have x2 CERLL and x6 CERML builds doing 64 damage

Youve forced the composition of laser vomit to change, but you havent actually fixed the problem.



The only way to actually fix the problem is to link all large lasers with all medium lasers.

1) link all large lasers with all medium lasers for ghost heat
2) reduce the damage of CERML from 7 to 6 (with appropriate reduction in heat, cooldown, and duration)
3) all clan and IS large lasers get ghost heat limit of +1 (except CHLL stays at ghost heat limit of 2)
4) all IS medium lasers get ghost heat limit of +1

Then everything is fixed. All laser combinations will do approximately the same damage. And youll be able to use large lasers as primary weapons.

Clans will likely start comboing lasers with gauss again. But balancing clan gauss vs std gauss is a different issue.

Edited by Khobai, 29 November 2017 - 04:46 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

cHLL would have to stay with a limit of 2 otherwise it's still 54 damage where the IS max is 40.

[Grus]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2017 - 04:48 PM, said:

cHLL would have to stay with a limit of 2 otherwise it's still 54 damage where the IS max is 40.

don't think it would matter really, I had a game where I was behind a Battlemaster with 4erll. He has already taken some damage and his back was open. As I was lining up for a back shot he shut down fireing at a teammate. I stop, line up for CT. Alpha 4erll, he dosnt go pop, use CS fire Again, still no pop. He restarted about halfway though 2nd burn. Now it left him on red CT but still.. that was a crazy amount of damage all to one location with no kill..

So if the clan laser vomit is a problem, I see it as a result of the crazy HP of IS mechs.

Edit: cellphone derp.

Edited by Grus, 29 November 2017 - 05:29 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Grus, on 29 November 2017 - 05:28 PM, said:

So if the clan laser vomit is a problem, I see it as a result of the crazy HP of IS mechs.

Crazy HP is a result of the laser vomit, not the other way around. The alphas came first.

[InspectorG]

Armored Yokai, on 27 November 2017 - 10:00 PM, said:

Hellbringers are the even bigger problem.
No 65 tonner can beat this mech unless the map is a city or close map
Boating 4 ERLL on the Hellbringer with the Inclusion of ECM(functions like AECM) makes it too strong for it's own good.
(Linebackers and CauldronBorns are not as problematic as the Hellbringer because they are so wide and it's easier to hit and trade with them)

If ECM troubles you on an enemy lazerboat, you might need glasses. ECM is like spinners on your rims: nice but not all that.

The tightly clustered-high mounts are the bigger advantage, by far.

[InspectorG]

panzer1b, on 29 November 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Link the HLL (and only the HLL) with medium lasers by ghost heat, and the biggest annoyance/balance issue goes away, and the max alfa strike becomes a hair over 60 which is managable and what we had b4 the HLL existed...

Gee...

Imagine if PGI just had a target Alpha per weight class and tweaked it per chassis/variant....

And then based mech HP(quirks) on those values, with TIME under fire per average Alpha as the 'tankiness' metric.

And governed what could be Grouped together(in relation to the target alpha) and had a hard 1sec cooldown between Groups...

...probably wouldnt need spooky heat.


Nah, more dartboard, plz!

[Y E O N N E]

panzer1b, on 29 November 2017 - 03:01 PM, said:

Link the HLL (and only the HLL) with medium lasers by ghost heat, and the biggest annoyance/balance issue goes away, and the max alfa strike becomes a hair over 60 which is managable and what we had b4 the HLL existed...

False.

MCII-DS can still hit 78 by using 2x cERLL + 4x cERML + 2x cGauss, 80 if the cERLL get swapped for cLPL. DWF can hit 94 by adding two more cERML onto that. They were not manageable until PGI also nerfed the max-range on the cERML, and only then because we only had the DWF and the DWF is S L O W. The MCII-DS is not that slow.

Heavies also still get to 64 easily while IS laser alpha for the class has been whacked down to a nominal 52 by heat requirements and LPL nerf where it used to be 58.

[Snazzy Dragon]

CygnusX7, on 29 November 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

If you have a problem with HLL's, stop standing still.

Except for the part where even half the graze from the 2HLL + 6cERML is enough to turn any mechs' below 75 tons armor into a crispy orange anyway. If you've already been softened up beforehand, there's no telling how RNGsus will treat you with crits to equipment, since laser crits are per tick. It doesn't matter if it's a 160 KPH locust, even a third of the burn landing is enough to take them out of the long term of a fight if I point it at their legs. Sure, you can torso twist all you'd like, but taking away 50-70+ armor (push that past 80 if gauss is involved) in one fell swoop is devastating, even with the survival tree involved. It's enough softening up to make the next hits you take decisive even if they aren't from myself, but a teamamte going Rambo in a commando or that one guy in the 2ER LL cheetah that seems to pop up everwhere. Yes, even HE can be a problem if you've lost that much armor so quickly, and his build is bad

[Lightfoot]

Heavy Large Lasers are fine, no one uses them unless they have too. ER Large do higher DPS, but they are too hot after awhile. HLL's take too long to recharge in a brawl.

So it becomes a tactical balance and that is something for players to solve, not MWO. That starts with hitting the "R" key.

[Muujig612]

Lightfoot, on 29 November 2017 - 09:28 PM, said:

Heavy Large Lasers are fine, no one uses them unless they have too. ER Large do higher DPS, but they are too hot after awhile. HLL's take too long to recharge in a brawl.

HLL does more DPS than CERLL. 2.47 vs. 2.16.

[Mcgral18]

CygnusX7, on 29 November 2017 - 01:42 PM, said:

If you have a problem with HLL's, stop standing still.

Highest Dam/tick in the game


"Just move out of the way, dummy!"


Does not compute

[Jackal Noble]

Yeonne Greene, on 29 November 2017 - 06:58 PM, said:

False.

MCII-DS can still hit 78 by using 2x cERLL + 4x cERML + 2x cGauss, 80 if the cERLL get swapped for cLPL. DWF can hit 94 by adding two more cERML onto that. They were not manageable until PGI also nerfed the max-range on the cERML, and only then because we only had the DWF and the DWF is S L O W. The MCII-DS is not that slow.

Heavies also still get to 64 easily while IS laser alpha for the class has been whacked down to a nominal 52 by heat requirements and LPL nerf where it used to be 58.

It's 80 with the C-ERLLs and would be 82 with LPLs. Which at that point it really isn't manageable or worth it with LPL's, as the 4 tons you need to allot is not really there unless you want to go like 56 or slower (which is molasses on this chassis), and even then the heat is gonna blow. good job, you shot that one guy, one time. Further, this is a build that HLLs are not desirable either as and the ER-LLs are the best bang for the buck in terms of sustainable fire and utilizing a secondary weapon for firing downrange paired with the Gauss. It's funny tho, as Madcat MKII's aren't really that tough to neuter. Give me a 4UAC5 Sleipnir anyday to that pile of glass.

Mcgral18, on 29 November 2017 - 10:23 PM, said:

Highest Dam/tick in the game


"Just move out of the way, dummy!"


Does not compute

7 seconds. Hot as balls. It's almost like one can fire other weapons during that time period, twice maybe even thrice. But 18 damage bruh! lol

Edited by JackalBeast, 30 November 2017 - 07:49 AM.

[Steve Pryde]

InspectorG, on 29 November 2017 - 05:48 PM, said:

If ECM troubles you on an enemy lazerboat, you might need glasses. ECM is like spinners on your rims: nice but not all that.

The tightly clustered-high mounts are the bigger advantage, by far.

And to be honest, a 4 ERLL Hellbringer doesn't need ECM at all. The best Hellbringer variant for quad ERLL spam ist the new hero mech Virago with stock omnipods (no ecm) and +10% range.