247 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

JackalBeast, on 30 November 2017 - 07:51 AM, said:

It's 80 with the C-ERLLs and would be 82 with LPLs. Which at that point it really isn't manageable or worth it with LPL's, as the 4 tons you need to allot is not really there unless you want to go like 56 or slower (which is molasses on this chassis), and even then the heat is gonna blow. good job, you shot that one guy, one time. Further, this is a build that HLLs are not desirable either as and the ER-LLs are the best bang for the buck in terms of sustainable fire and utilizing a secondary weapon for firing downrange paired with the Gauss. It's funny tho, as Madcat MKII's aren't really that tough to neuter. Give me a 4UAC5 Sleipnir anyday to that pile of glass.

Bruh, my NSR-9FC moves at 55 for a piddly 63 alpha. Don't talk to me about molasses. Also, 56 is about how fast the most potent MCII builds already move, so...no real loss.

The cERLL definitely have the best returns on investment. But Slepnir over an MCII? Tough call, the B does ballistics phenomenally.

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7 seconds. Hot as balls. It's almost like one can fire other weapons during that time period, twice maybe even thrice. But 18 damage bruh! lol

Maybe if they hadn't nerfed cooldown on IS Medium/ER Medium...

[Jackal Noble]

Ya, Nightstars are...wonky. They can do work, but you've really got to work.
In a knife fight, Sleipnir stomps.
Tried out the DS with the HLL, 4 med and gauss on a 325. Definitely doable, just not my cup of tea. Yes the 94 alpha will strip off most side torsos given the oppurtunity, not denying that. In the window it needs to get back to viability even with a CS, a lot can happen. Sure, you can follow up with those 4 ER-Meds, but that then really puts the Ace in the hole on hold that is the full alpha. Left unchecked, ya that's dangerous but so are a lot of other equally dangerous mechs. It's a 90 ton mech and per Clan mech with Clan Tech, it puts out high-long duration damage but is also quite vulnerable, due to size and hitbox allocation.
The serious offenders that are able to really make the HLL effective are the HunchIIC (surprise) the Hellbie, the EBJ, Sadcat (for you Mcgral) and dun dun dun..the MadIIC. Of those the Hunch, Hellbringer and MadIIC have the higher sustainability for damage output. Ebj because of pod easily isolated to gimp, and shadowcat because I'd rather use ppcs.
Once gimped due to supahreha C-XL you are not firing those weapons in any close semblance to a sequence.
Going on a quick tangent, but so can 2 MRM40s sprayed twice (about to mess with the mrm40 Assassin here in a sec). MRMs just weigh a crap-ton lol. and they spray like nobody's business.

[Jay Leon Hart]

JackalBeast, on 30 November 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

The serious offenders that are able to really make the HLL effective are the HunchIIC (surprise) the Hellbie, the EBJ, Sadcat (for you Mcgral) and dun dun dun..the MadIIC. Of those the Hunch, Hellbringer and MadIIC have the higher sustainability for damage output. Ebj because of pod easily isolated to gimp, and shadowcat because I'd rather use ppcs.
Once gimped due to supahreha C-XL you are not firing those weapons in any close semblance to a sequence.

No love for the SNV? You can even run a STD engine.

[Khobai]

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Maybe if they hadn't nerfed cooldown on IS Medium/ER Medium...

medium lasers were nerfed for good reason though. they were too effective for only 1 ton/1 crit

what other weapon gave you 5-7 damage every 4 seconds for only 1 ton/1 crit, it was stupid how good they were. thats why their cooldown got nerfed.

its still stupid how good the CERML laser is. It really needs to go down to 6 damage...

although the cooldown increase only made them worst at brawling, it didnt really make them worse at poking, so the poking meta still needs to be addressed with large/medium laser ghost heat linkage and lowering CERML damage to 6.

but once thats done, I think medium lasers will be better balanced for a weapon that only weighs 1 ton/1 crit.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 09:59 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

medium lasers were nerfed for good reason though. they were too effective for only 1 ton

what other weapon gives you 5-7 damage for only 1 ton, it was stupid how good they were

[Khobai]

answer my question...


oh you cant.

because there arnt any other weapons that give you 5-7 damage every 4 seconds for only 1 ton/1crit.


Even in tabletop medium lasers were some of the most broken weapons after Gauss/PPC. And tabletop had random hit locations too, it didnt just let you vomit all your lasers into one location like MWO does. Medium lasers have always been poorly balanced weapons in virtually every mechwarrior game, except MW4 which nerfed medium laser damage so badly to counter boating, that they almost werent even worth using.

And the CERML was like a 1 ton version of the IS Large Laser before it got nerfed TWICE... hell its still way too good in the poking meta even post-nerf. If it was lowered to 6 damage it might finally be reasonable.

The only downside to nerfing medium lasers is that it had an adverse effect on some lights and mediums that relied heavily on medium lasers. And yes PGI has failed to provide decent alternative weapons for those mechs. So yeah they do need to sort out the small laser category of weapons. and other lightweight close range weapons like HMGs and SRMs could probably be buffed too.

But im fine with medium lasers having longer cooldowns. PGI stated their reasons for doing it. And for once their reasons actually made sense. The weapon was just all-around too good for only 1 ton and 1 crit.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 10:15 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 November 2017 - 09:44 AM, said:

No love for the SNV? You can even run a STD engine.

Ya sure I like Supernova's just fine. Schnozz effect kinda negates the benefits of STD, but ya I flip back and forth on it and an XL sometimes. It's one of the few mechs that can do that without any serious differences for damage output depending on loadout. Your point hasn't escaped me that theoretically with an STD you can lose a ST and still have a functioning arm to shoot with without that heat penalty. But Schnozz effect, your just as likely to get your CT blown out, so might as well use the edge that C-XL weight savings allows.
Currently revisiting the 3, since it's the only one that has any structure.

[Khobai]

hopefully STD engines will get a buff one day

if STD engines gave a CT structure bonus, it would help mechs like the supernova zombie better

Yeah even with a CT structure bonus it still wont be as good as CXL. But STD engine doesnt have to be exactly equal to CXL for every mech. STD engines just need to be good enough that its a viable alternative for some mechs like the supernova. If its good enough to get used some of the time, thats good enough for me.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 10:22 AM.

[Jackal Noble]

Just make all weapons do the amount of damage that they weigh. Fixed. huzzzah.

[Jay Leon Hart]

JackalBeast, on 30 November 2017 - 10:11 AM, said:

But Schnozz effect, your just as likely to get your CT blown out, so might as well use the edge that C-XL weight savings allows.
Currently revisiting the 3, since it's the only one that has any structure.

The builds I've been running actually run cooler with a STD, since with an XL I have so much spare tonnage I end up grabbing more JJs instead of DHS

I only really play my SNV-1 & SNV-BR, may have to tinker with the SNV-3 & SNV-A some time. The SNV-B & SNV-C could be good alternatives to buy, maybe after I have my next 'mech culling.

[Humpday]

Not a huge fan of HLL unless you're in a smaller, faster mech.

HLL requires an enormous amount of stare time, and forget about using them close(er) to your team, all they do is walk in front of your burn. The burn time also requires a lot of tracking, which...i mean its so easy to stand infront of HLL and splash it off.

Using them in anything going less than 80kph its difficult to use your range as light will come around.

I think they are useful in faction though as games tend to last a bit longer. PUG though its pretty difficult to be effective with them.

I'd rather take the heavier Pulse or ERLL.

Edited by Humpday, 30 November 2017 - 03:48 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Muujig612, on 29 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

HLL does more DPS than CERLL. 2.47 vs. 2.16.

C ERLL has 300 meters more range, it does more damage, you take less damage. The only mech I would use HLL's on are mechs like the Shadow Cat which has few hardpoints. My Nova Cat's use no HLL's.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

answer my question...


oh you cant.

I can, though:

Heat relative to range.

It's way out of whack on the Clan side because of cDHS. It wasn't at all on the IS side, especially since IS volleys are soft capped at ~60 on the slowest of 'Mechs. That made them easier to push on using other build archetypes and made the damage and DPS deltas closer both quantitatively and qualitatively.

How does that answer the question? It doesn't, but it does render the implicit assumption you are making...impotent. Dakka and SRMs and certain flavors of PPC were not being overshadowed by IS laser vomit, only by Clan vomit.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 10:01 AM, said:

because there arnt any other weapons that give you 5-7 damage every 4 seconds for only 1 ton/1crit.

2 things come close

IS SRM2 (or Clan SRM2)

1 ton (0.5 tons) & 1 slot + 0.5 tons of ammo (which is equal to 25 shots) @ 1 slot for 12.9 (12.0) damage every 4 seconds.

IS SPL (or Clan SPL)

1 ton & 1 slot for 7.0 (8.0) damage every 4.8 (5.0) seconds.

[FupDup]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 November 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

2 things come close

IS SRM2 (or Clan SRM2)

1 ton (0.5 tons) & 1 slot + 0.5 tons of ammo (which is equal to 25 shots) @ 1 slot for 12.9 (12.0) damage every 4 seconds.

IS SPL (or Clan SPL)

1 ton & 1 slot for 7.0 (8.0) damage every 4.8 (5.0) seconds.

Also add:

>ER Micro Laser (as sad as it is)
>Micro Pulse
>Clan ERSL
>Heavy SL
>IS SL
>IS ERSL
>Clan SRM4
>Clan LRM5
>Machine Gun
>Heavy Machine Gun
>Heavy ML

TL;DR: Kolby is wrong.

Edited by FupDup, 30 November 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Khobai]

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2 things come close

IS SRM2 (or Clan SRM2)

1 ton (0.5 tons) & 1 slot + 0.5 tons of ammo (which is equal to 25 shots) @ 1 slot for 12.9 (12.0) damage every 4 seconds.

IS SPL (or Clan SPL)

1 ton & 1 slot for 7.0 (8.0) damage every 4.8 (5.0) seconds.

I didnt ask for things that "came close" lmao

try again.

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TL;DR: Kolby is wrong.

im not wrong because the best you could come up with is weapons that "came close"

you couldnt come up with anything that was equal or better which is what I asked for.

and thats exactly why medium lasers got nerfed. you proved my point for me with your list of almost but not quite weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 01:18 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

im not wrong because the best you could come up with is weapons that "came close"

you couldnt come up with anything that was equal or better which is what I asked for.

and thats exactly why medium lasers got nerfed. you proved my point for me with your list of almost but not quite weapons.

You asked for at least 5 damage every 4 seconds for only 1 ton. I gave you many examples of guns that can match or surpass that.

Edited by FupDup, 30 November 2017 - 01:21 PM.

[Khobai]

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You asked for at least 5 damage every 4 seconds for only 1 ton. I gave you many examples of guns that can match or surpass that.

but they all fall short of medium lasers in some way

either they weigh more

or have less range

or ammo limitations

none of them match the pre-nerf medium laser for sheer brutal efficiency

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 30 November 2017 - 01:21 PM, said:

You asked for at least 5 damage every 4 seconds for only 1 ton. I gave you many examples of guns that can match or surpass that.

He's wrong simply because he has an obsession with single weapons when single weapons don't matter; builds do. There were no IS builds that were overperforming with Medium lasers relative to other build archetypes. The only things underperforming that were lasers that needed to be buffed...but which PGI also intended to nerf before the pitchforks scared some sense back into them.

Well, that and LRMs. And IS MGs.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 November 2017 - 01:29 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 01:27 PM, said:

but they all fall short of medium lasers in some way

either they weigh more

or have less range

or ammo limitations

none of them match the pre-nerf medium laser for sheer brutal efficiency

Or have less heat...

Or have shorter duration...

Or have more range (Clan LRM5)...

Or weigh less (every form of small and micro laser, MGs)...

Or have higher DPS in that time frame...

Or have higher alpha strike (Heavy SL).


Oh, and I forgot the Heavy ML.