247 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

yeah well ive always said micro lasers shouldnt have even been added to the game

their only real use is on protomechs and battlearmors

chemical lasers wouldve been a better addition

I dont believe you can ever really make microlasers a viable weapon in MWO. It was just ridiculous to add them to the game.

Edited by Khobai, 30 November 2017 - 09:08 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

well you shouldnt be going near a splat brawler with that many srms in a light mech armed with only small lasers in the first place.

Did you just assume my weight class?

[TRIGGERED]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 09:07 PM, said:

I dont believe you can ever really make microlasers a viable weapon in MWO. It was just ridiculous to add them to the game.

Anything can be made viable if you edit the XML files hard enough. Some cases are much easier than others, but the question is not whether it's possible. The real question is whether it's probable, and the answer to that is unlikely.

[Khobai]

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Anything can be made viable if you edit the XML files hard enough. Some cases are much easier than others, but the question is not whether it's possible. The real question is whether it's probable, and the answer to that is unlikely.

honestly it would be easier just to delete microlasers entirely and add chemical lasers instead.

chemical lasers would be viable right out of the box.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

no it doesnt make sense.

why would I ever take a short range AC20 for like 17-18 tons including ammo when I can just take a bunch of 0.5 ton lasers and completely outdps the AC20.

all that does is make taking bigger weapons completely stupid and uneconomical.

Only because you insist that the small laser specialize in being heat efficient, which makes it good for literally nothing. Letting it have DPS and still generate enough heat that it can't be boated with a bunch of also-efficient SRMs allows for a trade-off against an AC/20. Sure, I might be able to out-burst you in the first five or so seconds of combat, but then I need to back off or get clobbered by the, by comparison, frosty AC/20.

Let's say we buffed Small Laser cool-down to 1.25 seconds. You are looking at a Heavy 'Mech with a max of 9 small lasers spitting out 29.25 damage every 2.00 seconds for 14.65 DPS at 150 meters. At current heat levels, its maximum sustain is a tiny bit over 8 DPS. An Orion IIC is pumping 68-point alphas for 17.10 DPS with over 9 sustain. The TBR I linked in the other thread is pumping out 21.6 DPS with 8 sustain. And you think there's no room to buff the Small Laser? It balances out because there isn't enough room in your 'Mech to get the sustain to out-strip those heavier builds and the rate of output of the whole is still lower anyway. But the gun isn't useless anymore.

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and it rewards mechs that have lots of hardpoints for boating tons of smaller weapons while punishing mechs with fewer hardpoints because the bigger weapons arnt as good

Wrong.

Boated tiny guns won't do anything to help you on a map like Alpine Peaks or Borreal Vault if the enemy decided to bring big guns. RIP you.

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better directed damage vs the spread damage of SRMs.

How's that working out so far in the live game?

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and small lasers do significantly better damage per ton than SRMs

Again, how's that working out so far in the current game?

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the issue is that IS mechs dont have enough energy hardpoints to really abuse that. a lot of the IS mechs need hardpoints updates so they have as many hardpoints as clan mechs.

And yet even the Clan brawlers have essentially gone all-in on SRM or LB-20X and SRMs. That, or they are cMPL-spamming on Assaults for medium-range push into brawl.

Hmmm...

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 30 November 2017 - 09:27 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Oh come on, I expected better out of you. You know damn well that's:

A.) Quirks giving something like an ERLL Battlemaster a fighting chance against something like a MAD-IIC or SNV, and

B.) Tonnage disparity making the cost of fielding doubled-up Assaults nil for only one side, and it's hard to bring down three consecutive walls of 75-85 ton 'Mechs

C.) Spuds for the spud farm.

Don't use FW for judging tech balance. It's stupid and people who do it are stupid. Don't be stupid.



And, actually, a Nova Cat probably wouldn't lose. You go full expose and then just begin punishing the GHR each time it tries to come back up. You do have more range (TC2 vs no TC...unless you XL and get TC1, but then you are XL), you have dramatically more cooling (27 DHS vs 18), and you have a full set of JJs while the GHR has one or none. All the GHR has is some better geo and an insignificant quirk to CT structure. The first gets nullified by having to stare and the second gets nullified by the 10-point larger volley and the range. So, if you try to peak, you may lose on hardpoint locations. If you go full expose and punish him on every peak, he will lose on everything else. You have the heat capacity to full expose for several volleys, more than enough to cripple him.

Battlemasters are your real problem, because fielding two MAD-IIC leaves you with just enough room for an ACW and an ACH...which probably won't cut it against the Marauders and Warhammers the other side still has. Better to poptart the BLR to death or, if it's Boreal, kill them from scratch range (hooray seeing spawn to spawn when the gates are open!)

Bounty Hunter II, though, would probably eat a Nova Cat alive. Way better geo for staring, more range because it can mount a TC2 (yay no lower and hand actuators!), and it gets one more heatsink than the GHR.

Mad IIC, LBK/HBR (range or brawl depending), HBR/EBJ/LBK #2 same thing, Crit Lynx.

That's the MAD deck.

If you need the MC MKII you drop the second heavy to a HBK IIC/Huntsman/Nova and the Crit Lynx to an ACH.

BH is a beastly, beastly trade mech, especially on Boreal. Super easy to cover your legs and most the main trade locations if you're pushing or receiving are in your effective trade range.

Honestly, BLRs are over-rated. Better off going with GHRs for long range trade - because you can bring 3 of them and a good medium. That's where IS crushes Clans; not by out-trading ton for ton but because sure, a Clan heavy/assault trade deck may squeeze out a wave 1 win but wave 2 will crush them, chew wave 2. Wave 3 will destroy wave 2 and suddenly be trading a GHR vs HBKs and poptart Novas at long range, which is way easier. Wave 4 is Crit Lynx vs IS 50 tonners, like Bushies, Griffins, etc. That's just not something you can win as Clans for comparable teams.

The stupid mistake IS keeps making is trying to win the tonnage trade on wave 1, so they front-load. That's really the only wave Clans field that can dominate hard enough to cross the tonnage difference; even against SplatClops or HGauss Clops, laservomit/gaussvomit MAD and MC IICs or brawling Scorch/ Splat MCMK2 (2xLB10x, 2MPL, 4xSRM6A MC MKII is stupidly strong and heat sustainable, so is 9MPL MAD).

Edited by MischiefSC, 30 November 2017 - 09:35 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 30 November 2017 - 09:04 PM, said:

well you shouldnt be going near a splat brawler with that many srms in a light mech armed with only small lasers in the first place.

the point of small lasers should be mostly for precision work like legging and backshots. not for going toe to toe with srm brawlers lol.

You begin to see the problem then, yes? If I'm going to fight at SRM range, then I should take SRMs and not Small Lasers, even in a Light. If I'm not going to fight in SRM range, then I should take literally any other laser besides a small because the small doesn't have the range.

There is no place in this game for a small laser using your prescribed "niche".

MischiefSC, on 30 November 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Mad IIC, LBK/HBR (range or brawl depending), HBR/EBJ/LBK #2 same thing, Crit Lynx.

That's the MAD deck.

If you need the MC MKII you drop the second heavy to a HBK IIC/Huntsman/Nova and the Crit Lynx to an ACH.

Yeah, but that's one MAD-IIC, not two MAD-IIC. One is easy, it's trying to match the tonnage on the IS side that is hard. A well played IS Assault-wall is a tough nut to crack being 10-15 tons down per 'Mech per wave.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2017 - 09:32 PM, said:

You begin to see the problem then, yes? If I'm going to fight at SRM range, then I should take SRMs and not Small Lasers, even in a Light. If I'm not going to fight in SRM range, then I should take literally any other laser besides a small because the small doesn't have the range.

There is no place in this game for a small laser using your prescribed "niche".



Yeah, but that's one MAD-IIC, not two MAD-IIC. One is easy, it's trying to match the tonnage on the IS side that is hard. A well played IS Assault-wall is a tough nut to crack being 10-15 tons down per 'Mech per wave.

Nah, assault to assault you've got 12 mech firing lines. In FW the speed advantage for Clans is crucial because Clans are *always* in position first. Cyclops are dangerous in 1 v 1, even up to 3 v 3 sort of engagements but 12 v 12? Clan pinpoint just dominates. You're in position first or, when attacking, moving into your forward position before the enemy can exploit you being in the open as well. HLL/CERML MAD IICs on Boreal just destroy the ERLL BLRs.

[Jackal Noble]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2017 - 07:35 PM, said:

Oh come on, I expected better out of you. You know damn well that's:

A.) Quirks giving something like an ERLL Battlemaster a fighting chance against something like a MAD-IIC or SNV, and

B.) Tonnage disparity making the cost of fielding doubled-up Assaults nil for only one side, and it's hard to bring down three consecutive walls of 75-85 ton 'Mechs

C.) Spuds for the spud farm.

Don't use FW for judging tech balance. It's stupid and people who do it are stupid. Don't be stupid.



And, actually, a Nova Cat probably wouldn't lose. You go full expose and then just begin punishing the GHR each time it tries to come back up. You do have more range (TC2 vs no TC...unless you XL and get TC1, but then you are XL), you have dramatically more cooling (27 DHS vs 18), and you have a full set of JJs while the GHR has one or none. All the GHR has is some better geo and an insignificant quirk to CT structure. The first gets nullified by having to stare and the second gets nullified by the 10-point larger volley and the range. So, if you try to peak, you may lose on hardpoint locations. If you go full expose and punish him on every peak, he will lose on everything else. You have the heat capacity to full expose for several volleys, more than enough to cripple him.

Battlemasters are your real problem, because fielding two MAD-IIC leaves you with just enough room for an ACW and an ACH...which probably won't cut it against the Marauders and Warhammers the other side still has. Better to poptart the BLR to death or, if it's Boreal, kill them from scratch range (hooray seeing spawn to spawn when the gates are open!)

Bounty Hunter II, though, would probably eat a Nova Cat alive. Way better geo for staring, more range because it can mount a TC2 (yay no lower and hand actuators!), and it gets one more heatsink than the GHR.

Yaya had to stir the pot nonetheless :-/... 848m with a Tc1 because I like to have 28 sinks I use one jj pod, fully skilled with dissipation etc.. Even then the disparity in firing rate wasn't a whole lot more different between us. It ultimately came down to durability ( I had him cored probably 2 salvos before he cored me, and then one to finish me off). I know y'all don't like to hear FW antics, but it was a great impromptu test for me to see how the two stacked long range. Wasn't clean by any means, but was pretty close.

[Jackal Noble]

MischiefSC, on 30 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

Nah, assault to assault you've got 12 mech firing lines. In FW the speed advantage for Clans is crucial because Clans are *always* in position first. Cyclops are dangerous in 1 v 1, even up to 3 v 3 sort of engagements but 12 v 12? Clan pinpoint just dominates. You're in position first or, when attacking, moving into your forward position before the enemy can exploit you being in the open as well. HLL/CERML MAD IICs on Boreal just destroy the ERLL BLRs.

Oh hell no, at sub 600 effective range, why would you bring a sawed off to a rifle match? A good IS assault range contingent will shut that down before they get to use their firepower effectively. Now, say IS get in close and near the base, that build is more of an equalizer. But range trading, nope. This where you tell me, that's why you get up closer within that 500-550 range...
Wish I could predictably drop on that match more often to give it a go , tho.

Edited by JackalBeast, 30 November 2017 - 09:52 PM.

[Spheroid]

Microlasers are fine. It like you haven't even tinkered with the new Mist Lynx options. They do make sense depending on your machine gun loadout. Weapons of that mass do have utility on the extreme low end.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 30 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

Nah, assault to assault you've got 12 mech firing lines. In FW the speed advantage for Clans is crucial because Clans are *always* in position first. Cyclops are dangerous in 1 v 1, even up to 3 v 3 sort of engagements but 12 v 12? Clan pinpoint just dominates. You're in position first or, when attacking, moving into your forward position before the enemy can exploit you being in the open as well. HLL/CERML MAD IICs on Boreal just destroy the ERLL BLRs.

But that's just it...it's only an Assault 12 v 12 once, and if it's defense then you can compel the MAD-IICs into the optimum range by simply not providing any targets. They have to come in, so it really doesn't matter if IS front-load or not.

If it's offense, then yeah, you shouldn't front-load. It should be ERPPCs so you can force them to hide until you are in range of other weapons since a MAD-IIC is going to have a hard time juking a 2400 m/s ERPPC even fired from 1400 m (whoo, 1000 m range on BJ-3).

It's either that, or you Light rush and gimp the Clan assault wave with a throw-away wave and then plow over them with the follow-up.

Now, here's a question: Quad LGauss Slepnir or similar at 1200+ meters?

[Jackal Noble]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

Now, here's a question: Quad LGauss Slepnir or similar at 1200+ meters?

Oh wow, why haven't I tried that yet.

[MischiefSC]

JackalBeast, on 30 November 2017 - 09:50 PM, said:

Oh hell no, at sub 600 effective range, why would you bring a sawed off to a rifle match? A good IS assault range contingent will shut that down before they get to use their firepower effectively. Now, say IS get in close and near the base, that build is more of an equalizer. But range trading, nope. This where you tell me, that's why you get up closer within that 500-550 range...
Wish I could predictably drop on that match more often to give it a go , tho.

Huh, I guess that's why I lose so many matches in FW....

oh, wait. No, no I don't. I play with the people who literally win the most of any group of players in FW for the last 2 or 3 years. At least who plays FW.

It's not about epeen it's about demonstrating what works.

A) you can out trade at range if you need to. HBRs, SNV, poptart SMN even - the number of players who can out-trade a SMN poptart with ERLLs is really, really short and no more than a handful in the IS. Like less than 5 maybe. ERPPC poptart HBK if you need too. Even a poptart 2xGauss HBK if you need 0 heat.

However you never need to. Pick a map; you can close to 600m with cover and at most give up 1 hit. You'll crush the ERLL builds within that range with mid-range CERML/HLL or even just push builds. There's nowhere, no map, you can force the whole match to long range unless the other team is a bunch of timid pansies.

Which is why IS has success with ERLL teams; most Clan teams are half LRMs and the other half abject cowards. If you have 12 people pushing at once in the same direction one guy is going to get focused down, 1 guy half crippled - at which time your remaining mechs have cumulatively 3 or 4 times the burst and sustainable DPS and just burn the enemy down.

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

But that's just it...it's only an Assault 12 v 12 once, and if it's defense then you can compel the MAD-IICs into the optimum range by simply not providing any targets. They have to come in, so it really doesn't matter if IS front-load or not.

If it's offense, then yeah, you shouldn't front-load. It should be ERPPCs so you can force them to hide until you are in range of other weapons since a MAD-IIC is going to have a hard time juking a 2400 m/s ERPPC even fired from 1400 m (whoo, 1000 m range on BJ-3).

It's either that, or you Light rush and gimp the Clan assault wave with a throw-away wave and then plow over them with the follow-up.

Now, here's a question: Quad LGauss Slepnir or similar at 1200+ meters?

You're missing the fundamental nature of FW. You can't force a long range match on any map. Your 1200m Quad Gauss gets 1, maybe 2 trades before it's in a brawl if the other team wants - at which point it gets crushed.

You sacrifice 1 guy on Boreal, maybe Polar if the other team spread way out. You take 2-4 range mechs on Polar who take a flank for a crossfire and the rest push to mid range to trade with laservomit or with LBKs and just brawl them down.

There's no map in FW that doesn't let you close to 600m pretty safely. If there's a lot of long range trading going on it's because that's what both teams want. In comp with 2/2/2/2 sort of setups there's limited armor to shed and every loss is potentially crippling. In FW it's actually an incredibly successful tactic to sacrifice 1 or 2 guys against a team that's got hardcore poke builds and push in 10 brawlers, who will obliterate them. Clan vs IS there's no IS strong poke builds that can successfully kite you.

[Jackal Noble]

LGauss sloclops

[Jackal Noble]

MischiefSC, on 30 November 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

Huh, I guess that's why I lose so many matches in FW....

oh, wait. No, no I don't. I play with the people who literally win the most of any group of players in FW for the last 2 or 3 years. At least who plays FW.

It's not about epeen it's about demonstrating what works.

A) you can out trade at range if you need to. HBRs, SNV, poptart SMN even - the number of players who can out-trade a SMN poptart with ERLLs is really, really short and no more than a handful in the IS. Like less than 5 maybe. ERPPC poptart HBK if you need too. Even a poptart 2xGauss HBK if you need 0 heat.

However you never need to. Pick a map; you can close to 600m with cover and at most give up 1 hit. You'll crush the ERLL builds within that range with mid-range CERML/HLL or even just push builds. There's nowhere, no map, you can force the whole match to long range unless the other team is a bunch of timid pansies.

Which is why IS has success with ERLL teams; most Clan teams are half LRMs and the other half abject cowards. If you have 12 people pushing at once in the same direction one guy is going to get focused down, 1 guy half crippled - at which time your remaining mechs have cumulatively 3 or 4 times the burst and sustainable DPS and just burn the enemy down.




You're missing the fundamental nature of FW. You can't force a long range match on any map. Your 1200m Quad Gauss gets 1, maybe 2 trades before it's in a brawl if the other team wants - at which point it gets crushed.

You sacrifice 1 guy on Boreal, maybe Polar if the other team spread way out. You take 2-4 range mechs on Polar who take a flank for a crossfire and the rest push to mid range to trade with laservomit or with LBKs and just brawl them down.

There's no map in FW that doesn't let you close to 600m pretty safely. If there's a lot of long range trading going on it's because that's what both teams want. In comp with 2/2/2/2 sort of setups there's limited armor to shed and every loss is potentially crippling. In FW it's actually an incredibly successful tactic to sacrifice 1 or 2 guys against a team that's got hardcore poke builds and push in 10 brawlers, who will obliterate them. Clan vs IS there's no IS strong poke builds that can successfully kite you.

So, you're so tired of winning all the time that you come on here to dispute against your own tech-base, but you like winning all the time? Is that about correct?

[Jackal Noble]

What's your unit?

[MischiefSC]

JackalBeast, on 30 November 2017 - 10:34 PM, said:

So, you're so tired of winning all the time that you come on here to dispute against your own tech-base, but you like winning all the time? Is that about correct?

I want good matches and I want good teams to play against on both sides. That's going to require both sides be good.

I want to win because we played better, coordinated better. Not because I can run 3 LBKs and a Crit Lynx and just win on any map/mode because the IS just flat out can't compete because of lower alpha preventing stopping me from closing and finishing me fast enough and becasuse CXL/CDHS/CEndo/CFF means I'm always cooler so I win in a brawl.

JackalBeast, on 30 November 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

What's your unit?

KCom.

Our W/L has dropped a bit - still the highest in FW but we were over 18 (close to 20 for stretches) when it was 12 of us dropping. Now we're happy to get 6-8 on most the time and it's harder when carrying pugs.

Back when tech was balanced (before KDK release and associated IS nerfs) all the units flipped back and forth. Most matches were against teams and it was awesome. We switched IS and Clan and we did well in both and against both. Now? Without being able to field 12 people at almost any time of day you need other teams to drop with to fill out, because the pugs in FW have become absolutely window licking eye gouging terrible. I want balanced tech because I want to be able to go IS and always have good teams to drop both with (to fill out teams) and against.

Besides. Good balance is good for the game.

[Y E O N N E]

MischiefSC, on 30 November 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

You're missing the fundamental nature of FW. You can't force a long range match on any map. Your 1200m Quad Gauss gets 1, maybe 2 trades before it's in a brawl if the other team wants - at which point it gets crushed.

I'm literally not, I'm just presenting the counter-strat to the one argument you made above: that Clans will win the 12v12 assault ER trade on Boreal. If Clans brought ER trade hoping to bait IS defenders into engaging way outside their envelope, the IS have the advantage because they simply refuse to engage until spotter tells them the enemy is close enough to be worth exposing on since the Clans absolutely have to come in at some point. If they brought a wave built with the intent to engage to 600 meters or less, then it's not an ER trade anymore, now is it?

But all that aside, my initial statement about assault walls did not imply they were all ERLL in any way, shape, or form. The entire point was that IS can front-load and still out-ton the Clans on every subsequent wave if they want to. The rest comes down to builds and strats.

Also, who said anything about dedicating the entire team to Quad Gauss Cyclops? I was just wondering if even one was useful to have as cover at all since I have yet to try it.

[MischiefSC]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 November 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

I'm literally not, I'm just presenting the counter-strat to the one argument you made above: that Clans will win the 12v12 assault ER trade on Boreal. If Clans brought ER trade hoping to bait IS defenders into engaging way outside their envelope, the IS have the advantage because they simply refuse to engage until spotter tells them the enemy is close enough to be worth exposing on since the Clans absolutely have to come in at some point. If they brought a wave built with the intent to engage to 600 meters or less, then it's not an ER trade anymore, now is it?

But all that aside, my initial statement about assault walls did not imply they were all ERLL in any way, shape, or form. The entire point was that IS can front-load and still out-ton the Clans on every subsequent wave if they want to. The rest comes down to builds and strats.

Also, who said anything about dedicating the entire team to Quad Gauss Cyclops? I was just wondering if even one was useful to have as cover at all since I have yet to try it.

Back when ERLLs had even longer range we did that in FW all the time - the problem is that if you try to hide on Boreal you get cornered out. The other team just has to get in the gate and they've got covered approach options.

So you'd split 6x6, take the ramps on both sides and brush the IS back. The cover for the defenders is mediocre at best if the other team does that. Then you open the gates and take a side, then move up and corner them out at long range. If you're going for the super-long range approach you take the right - just nobody really does that anymore, you don't have to. You blow the gate, push in and left, up and down the butt-crack, then up the middle in a brawl. Clear first wave and turrets.

It can be useful to take 2 or 3 long range mechs regardless both to brush back defenders on the entry and then to cover the hill behind the gun, but that's it.

My point was that Clans win the assault vs assault fights pretty handily. It's where we shine - most good players will pull 1k or more out of their first mech when the IS takes assaults, be that brawling or ERLL trade. You just come in and low, close to 600m, come up and BOOM. It's trading 70-80pts vs 40-50pts. There's just no map where you can force the long range, you just get cornered out.

The best defenses on Boreal against a team are also mid-range. You get up between the gate with splat and Roughnecks where you can keep a numbers advantage when they come in or you get right up on the F6 hill and functionally do the same; make them come right into you up close. The range options on Boreal are a lot closer to 600 than 1200 and there's too many easy ways to close.

Ironically Sulfur is one of the few maps where you can force long range for a long time as the defender and for the IS it's a good one to do it - dat Mauler, great ranged ballistic loadouts and the approach is too long for anyone sane to take a Dire or KDK. Also Hellbore. Polar, sorta - depends on the mode.

Dual Heavy Gauss is probably one of the best ranged options for IS with a Cyclops. Quad light gauss at 1200m.... So much tonnage to dedicate for a build that's going to struggle to reposition.

I dunno. Maybe?

[Jackal Noble]

The quad gauss Cyclops is a trick pony and that's about it. 6ish tons of ammo, 50+ speed. Thing it's got is how insanely fast it cycles for shots. If it could carry 10 tons and be functional than that would be something. Also LG needs buff.