247 replies to this topic

[Armored Yokai]

Vxheous, on 27 November 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

You can bring 2 Battlemasters + 1 grasshopper + locust to counter, or 3 Grasshoppers + 55 tonner.

The Idea of Grasshoppers sound nice but my only issues are is that they have huge hitboxes and are incredibly tall for their size they also are difficult to trade with because lack of 10% range boost

[Xavori]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 27 November 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

HLL isn't space efficient? It's one crit more than ISLL, one ton less, and twice the damage. It's the most efficient large laser in the game. Yes, it is powerful. No, the 1.55s duration isn't a handicap, because- guess what- it can deal over 50% more damage than an ISLL in the same 1.1s window, even if you don't land the other 0.45s of burn.

Yes, it is that good.

IMO, what PGI needs to do with HLL is to give it the stats it had in TT- essentially, to flip the damage and heat values (TT HLL dealt 16dam for 18 heat; MWO HLL deals 18dam for 16 heat). That way, it still deals much more damage than any other LL, but suffers from extreme heatgen, as it was meant to.

Did you know that apples are different than oranges?

So ya, comparing the HEAVY large laser to the just large laser isn't being honest.

The CHLL is the most damage per ton you can get in a laser.
18 damage for 4 tons

That's all it has going for it. Everything else about it is bad.

1.55s duration. 16 heat. 5.75s cooldown. 3 crit slots

You cannot boat a 16 heat weapon. The weight advantage that lets you stick it on lighter clan mechs is totally lost when you start sticking on enough heat sinks to not cook yourself. Not that you'd ever do that because Clan mechs have less armor and aren't going to be happy sitting out in the open that long. Especially not when I can boat 2xCERLL's and a bunch of CERML's and get better heat management, less exposed time, fewer crit slots used.

Although now I'm curious to see how quickly I'd cook myself if I stuck 8 HLL's on a Hellbringer and fired them all at once...

[Xavori]

Armored Yokai, on 27 November 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

The Idea of Grasshoppers sound nice but my only issues are is that they have huge hitboxes and are incredibly tall for their size they also are difficult to trade with because lack of 10% range boost

The Grasshopper is for poptarting. If you just want laservomit, go with the Warhammer 6D (range) or 6R (heat). Or better yet, go with PPC's instead of lasers and take your pick of Whammies.

[gooddragon2]

Xavori, on 28 November 2017 - 12:24 AM, said:

The Grasshopper is for poptarting. If you just want laservomit, go with the Warhammer 6D (range) or 6R (heat). Or better yet, go with PPC's instead of lasers and take your pick of Whammies.

Or you pick one and you have a friend pick the other for a double whammy? ?

[Spheroid]

Depends on the Battlemaster build. It takes a 1G with TC8 to get beyond 900 meters where as I can do that with a TC5 on a Hellbringer.

The best BM the 2C is going to be well short of that range with ER. On Alpine you can bring a lot of pain from the high ground. There are some very dangerous Hellbringer builds mixing P and F pods.

Edited by Spheroid, 28 November 2017 - 12:46 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 27 November 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

IMO, what PGI needs to do with HLL is to give it the stats it had in TT- essentially, to flip the damage and heat values (TT HLL dealt 16dam for 18 heat; MWO HLL deals 18dam for 16 heat). That way, it still deals much more damage than any other LL, but suffers from extreme heatgen, as it was meant to.

There is a reason why it is the other way around. And this reason is called ER Large Laser. Who's gonna use 16 dmg for 18 heat if you can have 11 dmg for 10 heat and then throw in ERML for extra 7/6.3 to basicaly do the same as current HLL plus have extra range.

[Xavori]

gooddragon2, on 28 November 2017 - 12:34 AM, said:

Or you pick one and you have a friend pick the other for a double whammy? ?

That was terrible.

[Jackal Noble]

HLL is op? Umm ok...

[Bonzai VI]

I'm still astonished at how many people carry HLL/think that HLL are OP.

I've got no problem, carry them! Do your OP combo, as long as you're not in my team it's to my advantage!

On a serious note: Why do people think that shooting up to 90% heat from one alpha is ok?
You are not able to apply any form of pressure. You just let your teammates do the job of winning the game for you.
It's 78 damage for 70 heat for 2 HLL + 6 ERML. That's just... horrible.
We got 60 dmg for 42 heat for 3 LPL + 6 ML.
Of course you lose 100 meters, but I don't really care for that if I can alpha twice where you can only shoot once. (It really isn't hard to close in 100 meters)
To shoot, reload, shoot the IS build needs 5.3 seconds.
The Clan build needs 1.55 seconds as duration, and then has a cooldown of 5.75 seconds.

What do you all think happens if we've got 12 OP Clan laser vomits vs 12 IS laser vomits and the IS does the smart thing and simply rush them after baiting their first shots out?

Clan has 0 heat to spend and can be happy if they're able to kill 1 of the pushing force. (Thinking that they aren't just running in like Lemmings of course^^)

Edited by Bonzai VI, 28 November 2017 - 02:58 AM.

[Mcgral18]

The amount of Spud in the thread is impressive

[Jay Leon Hart]

Parmeggido, on 27 November 2017 - 10:43 PM, said:

The real problem with the HLL is that it's pretty much everything the IS wants out of the Binary Laser Cannon, except at less than half the weight. Many people have requested BLazers for a long time, but just imagine if they were added to a game where the HLL exists.

I'm imagining it with the same burn time as a Large Laser with the damage & heat swapped (16 dam, 12 heat, not the 12 dam, 16 heat from TT).

[Khobai]

Quote

It's just too much power for too little cost. I'd start with lowering its damage to 16 and see how things shake out from there.

its not too much power for too little cost at all.

CERML is 7 damage for 1 ton and 1 crit.

CHLL is 18 damage for 4 tons and 3 crits.

So the CHLL's ratio of damage to tonnage and damage to crits is actually LESS efficient than CERMLs. So if anything you should be asking for CERML damage to be lowered, not CHLLs. It wouldve made far more sense if you asked for CERML damage to be lowered by 1, which would actually put CERML more in line with CHLL.

But regardless, thats not the problem... again the real problems dont start until you combine 2 CHLLs with 4-6 CERMLs and get a huge laser vomit alpha.

The problem lies with ghost heat not linking large lasers and medium lasers together.

Quote

The real problem with the HLL is that it's pretty much everything the IS wants out of the Binary Laser Cannon, except at less than half the weight. Many people have requested BLazers for a long time, but just imagine if they were added to a game where the HLL exists.

I dont see how its a problem that the HLL is better than a weapon that doesnt exist in the game.

Thats like Clans complaining about how ISRACs are better than CRACs because the ISRACs take up 2 less crit slots. Its a ridiculous complaint because CRACs dont even exist in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 04:31 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

I dont want to single out the heavy larges.

I want all large lasers nerfed and possibly medium laers too.

Clan medium laser vomit should stay superior to that of IS. Laser weapons should all become less profitable so that the ballistics and missiles become more viable.

We have 78 pt alpha strikes with medium vomit and ~50 pt alpha strikes with er large vomit. Needs to be reduced to like 55 and 35.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 28 November 2017 - 04:36 AM.

[Joey Tankblaster]

What you guys forgot in your discussion is weight. Basically one LPL is replaced by one HLL, which give you 4 tons weight advantage in a classic laser vomit build.

The HLL+ERML combo weights less compared to LPL+ERML, crits are no problem so that you can easily run 2xHLL,4xERML with 64 point alpha and >23 DHS on a 50t HBK-IICA. Try this with IS mediums. Good luck.

Hellbringer, which was once limited to 1xGauss/3xERML due to standard armour and standard structure, can now also run this combination. Put some skill points into ECM and this mech yields 1000+ damage games almost every time. Gargoyle - same story.

Being rushed in a laser vomit build is, indeed, not very comfortable. However, this won't happen in a typical PUG match.

So yes - this combination is especially ugly and deserves a revision.

[Khobai]

Well linking large lasers and medium lasers for ghost heat is a surefire way of lowering the alpha strike amounts.

clan large lasers would get a ghost heat limit of 3

IS large lasers would get a ghost heat limit of 4

but they would now be linked with medium lasers for ghost heat

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 27 November 2017 - 09:33 PM, said:

HLLs arnt the problem. If a mech only has one or two HLLs... thats not overpowered.

Its not a problem until you start combining the 2HLLs with 4-6 ERMLs.

So the easiest solution is just to link large and medium lasers for ghost heat. Based on what PGI did with PPC/Gauss im willing to bet thats the route theyll go for nerfing laser vomit.


And yeah HLL do eat up crit slots, you lose a DHS for each HLL you take compared to if you took an ERLL. HLL arnt the most heat efficient lasers. But the amount of damage they do for the tonnage is absurd.

You know that these 6 ermeds are better than those 2 hll and youll end with mechs boating 6 mpl instead.

Ofc clans will still be way more powerful than is because strength of their laservomit lays mainly with mediums unlike is which relies on larges.
So instead of getting 66 vs 47(40%) damage and 78 vs 57(37%) youll go to 42 vs 30(40%) and 42 vs 27(55%) actually furthering the gap between clan and is laservomits...

Instead you should ask for is gh of 4 llas and 8 medlas

Edited by davoodoo, 28 November 2017 - 04:50 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You know that these 6 ermeds are better than those 2 hll and youll end with mechs boating 6 mpl instead.

you know the ghost heat limit on large lasers should be increased if large lasers and medium lasers are linked for ghost heat? ghost heat limit of 3 for non-heavy clan larges and ghost heat limit of 4 for IS larges.

and yes of course CERMEDs are better. which is exactly what I said a couple posts ago.

CERMEDs are 7 damage for 1 ton and 1 crit and are way more efficient per tonnage and crit slot than CHLLs.

So instead of asking for CHLL nerfs it would make far more sense to ask for CERML nerfs. Theyre the best clan laser not CHLLs.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 05:17 AM.

[lazorbeamz]

Reduce raw damage for all medlas, er med, large, er large and heavy by ~25%.

It really becomes stupid when you compare the alphas:

Ac20 only allows 20 alpha before ghost heat. AC10 allow 20-30. lasers allow 78 ez pz. Also remove the ballistic GH rules.

Do not add any new stupid ghost heat rules for the lasers, rather reduce raw damage numbers for every single laser. Smalls should stay though.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 28 November 2017 - 04:55 AM.

[Khobai]

well the AC20 should have a ghost heat limit of 2

or at the very least the ghost heat penalty for firing 2 should be significantly lowered

40 damage at 270m is not overpowered


And no they should not reduce the damage on large lasers. Large lasers are already way less efficient than medium lasers. The only laser that probably should get nerfed is the CERML which should be 6 damage and 5.4 heat instead of 7 damage and 6.3 heat.

then link large and medium lasers for ghost heat and increase the ghost heat limit on non-heavy large lasers by 1 for both clans and IS so they can be used as standalone primary weapons.

Quote

Do not add any new stupid ghost heat rules for the lasers, rather reduce raw damage numbers for every single laser. Smalls should stay though.

then why would anyone ever use large lasers?

youd just be killing large lasers outright if you knocked 25% of their damage off

and yes ghost heat is stupid, but its what the game uses... and to remain consistent its what the game should keep using until a better solution is found.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2017 - 05:17 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

lazorbeamz, on 28 November 2017 - 04:34 AM, said:

Clan medium laser vomit should stay superior to that of IS.

Why should it?