133 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

1. stop calling each other names
2. I want to stop people better than me from playing as well, but it doesn't work that way

[50 50]

buryingbeetle, on 01 December 2017 - 04:44 PM, said:

That may be so... but if you want to "Include" everyone in faction play then make a mode for pugs and others to drop. Its not like K-Com and other groups that farm pugs can't drop, they can just drop with everyone else.

So the real question is "Is FP only for units or is it for everyone?" . If its only for units... then you are right. If it includes everyone then everyone should be able to play.

Faction Play is not restricted and PUGs are allowed, but it comes with the warning that without finding a team to work with it is hard and you need to be ready for that.

Let's be a little clear about a few of the terms that get thrown around though.
It's like we need a glossary of terms or something.

PUG
Dropping solo, ie, not grouping up, into battle.
You will not only get to face off against an opponent of random skill and co-ordination and group composition, but you also get random allies on your side.
The chance of developing any level of team work is difficult and there will likely be less communication.

GROUPS
Anyone can group up.
Various tools were added to the game to help do this.
You do not need to be in the same unit or even in the same house or clan.
By grouping up you start to get a greater level of consistency in play because you keep the same allies.
You may even start to learn play styles and communicate with the others in your group.
You may start to co-ordinate builds and mechs to work together better.

UNITS
There is no advantage to being in a unit game play wise.
What being a member of a unit does is give you a greater chance of grouping up with the same players and therefore more consistent play.
Units make grouping up easier.
It's also likely that the level of communication is much higher so team co-ordination and tactics becomes a significant advantage.


That said......


There is very little difference in Faction Play to Quick Play.
There is also very little point in actually belonging to a faction and have that mean something.
There is great hope that all that will change and we do get some more depth and more features.

The question might be, "Why do you want to play Faction Play?"
It would be pretty easy to port Scouting as a mode into Quick Play. That might be a better option.
So what are the reasons we play Faction Play?
I'm going to make a poll.... because I want to.

[ANOM O MECH]

buryingbeetle, on 01 December 2017 - 05:43 PM, said:

Well here's the thing. You should give public players SOME way to play FW.

Should it only be Unit vs Unit?


Do you want Public Users to Play at all? Because from what I'm hearing its a resounding "NO". I get that the competitive types want to win. Somehow I feel like they "Want the game to be all about them".

I mean I came back from a 3 year break hoping the game would be better. Competitive groups should be able to face each other, however they shouldn't dominate a game mode.


I mean really... do you find this fun when there isn't any serious competition?

Well here is the actual thing...'public' players (whatever the h, e, double hockey sticks that means) have been given the very thing you desire already!!! All they have to do is click through a couple of buttons and wait a bunch during a bunch of loading screen then wammo...wait for a lobby. Then after all that if there is someone on the other side, then they play some FW!!!

Also it seems to be a good 50/50 chance of pug on pug glory whenever I launch. Hey if you do run up against an organised team you can always wait a few minutes after your whoopin' and launch hoping to get matched with another group or come back later.

[naterist]

i (very vaguely) equate fw to an mmorpg dungeon. do they let people do dungeon crawls in big mmos? no they dont, because their built for parties with healers and tanks, and dps and all that. faction play is kinda like that. if your allowed to go in solo its gonna end badly. some games, like final fantasy 15, force groups for the dungeon crawl. i think wow does it to but idk, never played it. lineage 2 didnt, but it had its own siege like event that was only accessable by guilds. point is, most games have things for guilds only. fw is designed around groups, units particularly, but any group is ok. scouting particularly is important for groups to be in, because it directly effects the 12 man que in the lamest of ways (not as bad as longtom, but no side should have any advantage from the start of a match, but i digress). as long as that que messes with the other one, were groups and units are doing their thing, then they need to be able to hop in and counter anyone trying to get an advantage. yes, thats a bit rambley, i just ate the best edible ever, so excuse my grammer too.

[MischiefSC]

Nightbird, on 04 December 2017 - 05:40 PM, said:

2. I want to stop people better than me from playing as well, but it doesn't work that way

Have you considered threatening that PGI will fail, FW will close and everyone of your skill level and lower will quit if PGI doesn't functionally force everyone better than you out of the game?

That seems to be a popular approach, though I can't say it's been overly successful.

[Wolfways]

naterist, on 04 December 2017 - 10:39 PM, said:

i (very vaguely) equate fw to an mmorpg dungeon. do they let people do dungeon crawls in big mmos? no they dont, because their built for parties with healers and tanks, and dps and all that. faction play is kinda like that. if your allowed to go in solo its gonna end badly. some games, like final fantasy 15, force groups for the dungeon crawl. i think wow does it to but idk, never played it. lineage 2 didnt, but it had its own siege like event that was only accessable by guilds. point is, most games have things for guilds only. fw is designed around groups, units particularly, but any group is ok. scouting particularly is important for groups to be in, because it directly effects the 12 man que in the lamest of ways (not as bad as longtom, but no side should have any advantage from the start of a match, but i digress). as long as that que messes with the other one, were groups and units are doing their thing, then they need to be able to hop in and counter anyone trying to get an advantage. yes, thats a bit rambley, i just ate the best edible ever, so excuse my grammer too.

But that makes no sense. In MMO's there are lots of other things to do. In MWO FW is the game.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Wolfways, on 05 December 2017 - 12:03 AM, said:

But that makes no sense. In MMO's there are lots of other things to do. In MWO FW is the game.

That's exactly like saying that in those other games that Dungeons are the game. Its just wrong. MWO's largest portion is quick play, that's the main section of the game. FW started out as, and is always labeled ENDGAME CONTENT, in MMOs this means that you have to go level up and upgrade just to gain entry to them. In MWO there is a warning that says that you *should* be very experienced and prepared but there is no hard barring from the mode, which is a mistake that leads to all this stuff here.

If someone starts the game up and goes right into the endgame content they deserve to lose, if they want to uninstall after that then good riddance, they're likely to drive off more players than themselves with their lack of teamwork. Imagine, every one of those players that does this, if they stay, ruins the match for the 11 other players on their team because they fail to do even the most basic level of coordination, this makes 11 people more likely to leave. If the bad player leaves and is replaced by a good player then you have 12 happy players on the team and one guy who quit.

Now take a moment to realize that what PGI did was try to cater to, and keep around, the bad players, and take a look at how FW has crumbled over time as the big units that were keeping the mode alive left as more and more uncooperative players joined in and good and cooperative players were punished with steep cbill costs for their large units. The good players were too quiet in their leaving, they would adapt to changes without a word but eventually just left for greener pastures when it got too bad. The Bad players whined at every step, asking the game to cater to them, latching onto the game like a parasite and sucked the community dry.


This is really the issue here, you can't make bad players happy, they're always losing because they play to lose, their actions and wants contradict themselves and they absolutely never try to change. You give them an inch and they want a mile. The good players try to always be happy, they work towards their goals and try to improve even against the odds, and if it still doesn't work out they'll just leave without a hassle.

Take yourself as an example, you want to have fun and master your assault mechs, but at the same time you want to run trash tier stock builds on them then you complain that assault mechs are bad. You have the option to stop playing in a way that leads to the horrible losses that you don't like, but at no point in time do you change your ways to improve your results and have more fun.

[FrostyBurn]

Yes and all that but I must say the pugs have really gotten better lately. I have had several pug scout drops that have worked fine. In regular FP they mostly follow instructions and stay with the team now a days. So nice work and if you want to step up the game further join a good group.

[Bishop Six]

Dakota1000, on 05 December 2017 - 12:53 AM, said:

That's exactly like saying that in those other games that Dungeons are the game. Its just wrong. MWO's largest portion is quick play, that's the main section of the game. FW started out as, and is always labeled ENDGAME CONTENT, in MMOs this means that you have to go level up and upgrade just to gain entry to them. In MWO there is a warning that says that you *should* be very experienced and prepared but there is no hard barring from the mode, which is a mistake that leads to all this stuff here.

If someone starts the game up and goes right into the endgame content they deserve to lose, if they want to uninstall after that then good riddance, they're likely to drive off more players than themselves with their lack of teamwork. Imagine, every one of those players that does this, if they stay, ruins the match for the 11 other players on their team because they fail to do even the most basic level of coordination, this makes 11 people more likely to leave. If the bad player leaves and is replaced by a good player then you have 12 happy players on the team and one guy who quit.

Now take a moment to realize that what PGI did was try to cater to, and keep around, the bad players, and take a look at how FW has crumbled over time as the big units that were keeping the mode alive left as more and more uncooperative players joined in and good and cooperative players were punished with steep cbill costs for their large units. The good players were too quiet in their leaving, they would adapt to changes without a word but eventually just left for greener pastures when it got too bad. The Bad players whined at every step, asking the game to cater to them, latching onto the game like a parasite and sucked the community dry.


This is really the issue here, you can't make bad players happy, they're always losing because they play to lose, their actions and wants contradict themselves and they absolutely never try to change. You give them an inch and they want a mile. The good players try to always be happy, they work towards their goals and try to improve even against the odds, and if it still doesn't work out they'll just leave without a hassle.

Take yourself as an example, you want to have fun and master your assault mechs, but at the same time you want to run trash tier stock builds on them then you complain that assault mechs are bad. You have the option to stop playing in a way that leads to the horrible losses that you don't like, but at no point in time do you change your ways to improve your results and have more fun.

Perfect description!

In my first 6 month of playing MWO i was so bad that people felt sorry for me.

The next 6 month i managed to get better, but it took time for that.

I made a plan to earn cbills and to master my few mechs and slowly i got the feeling for MWO and the necessary style of playing it.

I never complained about others, MWO isn't an easy game. It is challenging, especially in the first month of play. So all beginners should be patient, learn all mechanics of the game and ask for advice from the more experienced players.

Even today, i got sometimes crushed and i guess most of the other veteran players can report the same.

You will never be that good, that you win 99 % of your matches all the time.

[Wolfways]

Dakota1000, on 05 December 2017 - 12:53 AM, said:

That's exactly like saying that in those other games that Dungeons are the game. Its just wrong. MWO's largest portion is quick play, that's the main section of the game. FW started out as, and is always labeled ENDGAME CONTENT, in MMOs this means that you have to go level up and upgrade just to gain entry to them. In MWO there is a warning that says that you *should* be very experienced and prepared but there is no hard barring from the mode, which is a mistake that leads to all this stuff here.

Of course QP is the main game, because pgi gave up on FW. It pretty much might as well not exist anymore.
And to my knowledge it was never supposed to be endgame, but the game.

Quote

If someone starts the game up and goes right into the endgame content they deserve to lose, if they want to uninstall after that then good riddance, they're likely to drive off more players than themselves with their lack of teamwork. Imagine, every one of those players that does this, if they stay, ruins the match for the 11 other players on their team because they fail to do even the most basic level of coordination, this makes 11 people more likely to leave. If the bad player leaves and is replaced by a good player then you have 12 happy players on the team and one guy who quit.

Now take a moment to realize that what PGI did was try to cater to, and keep around, the bad players, and take a look at how FW has crumbled over time as the big units that were keeping the mode alive left as more and more uncooperative players joined in and good and cooperative players were punished with steep cbill costs for their large units. The good players were too quiet in their leaving, they would adapt to changes without a word but eventually just left for greener pastures when it got too bad. The Bad players whined at every step, asking the game to cater to them, latching onto the game like a parasite and sucked the community dry.


This is really the issue here, you can't make bad players happy, they're always losing because they play to lose, their actions and wants contradict themselves and they absolutely never try to change. You give them an inch and they want a mile. The good players try to always be happy, they work towards their goals and try to improve even against the odds, and if it still doesn't work out they'll just leave without a hassle.

You're blaming pugs for FW's failure? lol
FW has failed because it's a pathetic design.

Quote

Take yourself as an example, you want to have fun and master your assault mechs, but at the same time you want to run trash tier stock builds on them then you complain that assault mechs are bad. You have the option to stop playing in a way that leads to the horrible losses that you don't like, but at no point in time do you change your ways to improve your results and have more fun.

No idea where you get that from but it's completely wrong. Assault mechs are bad, no matter the build, because they cannot take much damage.
Why would I change my mechs when I do okay in them? My gameplay does't lead to losses...mostly.
Also, fun? I do have that in my stock-weapon mechs. If I was forced to lower myself to use meta I'd rather quit for good.

Edited by Wolfways, 05 December 2017 - 02:40 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Wolfways, on 05 December 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

Of course QP is the main game, because pgi gave up on FW. It pretty much might as well not exist anymore.
And to my knowledge it was never supposed to be endgame, but the game.

It was talked about as endgame content for units when it came out, thus the whole "community warfare" name it had originally. You may be mistaking the ancient talks of what the game was supposed to be from back when they were selling promises to the founders, but most of that never made it into the game.

Wolfways, on 05 December 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

You're blaming pugs for FW's failure? lol
FW has failed because it's a pathetic design.

FW's failing is a mix of things, PGI and its lack of productivity on adding meaningful progression is one, PGI's catering to PUGs is another. There's countless people mad at bad teams that leave this game for good, bad players are unhealthy for a game's population.

Wolfways, on 05 December 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

No idea where you get that from but it's completely wrong. Assault mechs are bad, no matter the build, because they cannot take much damage.

Assault mechs can do very good depending on the build, infact the build matters the most with assault mechs. Most assault mechs have pretty bad stock builds, but their potential is what matters, there's a reason why the Kodiak-3 used to be the top tier meta mech, and it wasn't the dual LBX20s it came stock with. After the Kodiak's nerf the Deathstrike, yet another assault, has taken its place. In between that it was the Marauder IIC. Its true that assaults aren't built to soak up damage, and the ones forced to such as Atlas are trash as a result, but assaults are very capable of putting out punishing amounts of firepower. Firepower that you'll never reach with stock builds.

Wolfways, on 05 December 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

Why would I change my mechs when I do okay in them? My gameplay does't lead to losses...mostly.

Hate to do this to you, but the leaderboard data contradicts that statement, you have more losses than wins and more deaths than kills. First step is acceptance.

https://leaderboard.....php?u=Wolfways

Wolfways, on 05 December 2017 - 02:39 AM, said:

Also, fun? I do have that in my stock-weapon mechs. If I was forced to lower myself to use meta I'd rather quit for good.

If you're having fun in your stock builds then why do you complain about driving around in your assault mechs with stock builds? Doesn't seem fun, its seems arbitrarily limiting and frustrating.

[Wolfways]

Dakota1000, on 05 December 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

It was talked about as endgame content for units when it came out, thus the whole "community warfare" name it had originally. You may be mistaking the ancient talks of what the game was supposed to be from back when they were selling promises to the founders, but most of that never made it into the game.

Sorry, I didn't realise that pugs weren't a part of the community.

Quote

FW's failing is a mix of things, PGI and its lack of productivity on adding meaningful progression is one, PGI's catering to PUGs is another. There's countless people mad at bad teams that leave this game for good, bad players are unhealthy for a game's population.

Which is a good reason why other games include a matchmaker.

Quote

Assault mechs can do very good depending on the build, infact the build matters the most with assault mechs. Most assault mechs have pretty bad stock builds, but their potential is what matters, there's a reason why the Kodiak-3 used to be the top tier meta mech, and it wasn't the dual LBX20s it came stock with. After the Kodiak's nerf the Deathstrike, yet another assault, has taken its place. In between that it was the Marauder IIC. Its true that assaults aren't built to soak up damage, and the ones forced to such as Atlas are trash as a result, but assaults are very capable of putting out punishing amounts of firepower. Firepower that you'll never reach with stock builds.



Hate to do this to you, but the leaderboard data contradicts that statement, you have more losses than wins and more deaths than kills. First step is acceptance.

https://leaderboard.....php?u=Wolfways

lol
It doesn't contradict my statement at all...unless of course I'm always put on really bad teams, but I'd say that generally being one of the highest damage dealers and match scores means I'm doing okay. Not bad for 20fps

Quote

If you're having fun in your stock builds then why do you complain about driving around in your assault mechs with stock builds? Doesn't seem fun, its seems arbitrarily limiting and frustrating.

Why do you keep bringing up assault mechs? When did I ever complain about stock assaults being bad? Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.

Oh and btw, my KDR will always be low because I choose to keep it low. I prefer playing support builds that help my team get kills. Getting them myself means nothing to me.

Edited by Wolfways, 05 December 2017 - 03:44 AM.

[Marquis De Lafayette]

Wolfways, on 05 December 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

Oh and btw, my KDR will always be low because I choose to keep it low. I prefer playing support builds that help my team get kills. Getting them myself means nothing to me.

If you were playing support decently it would balance out. Unless you are telling us that you are running around in a 3x ams Kit fox all the time...in which case, stop doing that.

Reality based on those stats (in QP) is that the side with you on it both loses more than it wins and you also die way more than you kill. To improve your experience you need to see the implications of that correlation and accept that making MWO a better place for you starts within your own gameplay. The good news is that many, many players have walked this road and become very good players....others ignore reality and substitute their own alternative narrative, where they are the victim and if others would just change (or if PGI would change things for them) they would be awesome.

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 04 December 2017 - 11:55 AM, said:

That's odd because everyone in the mode has pugged, most were originally pugs and for the first 2.5 years of the 3.25 years it's been going it was populated almost completely with units and unit players - again, most of us originally pugged all the time (back before 1 bukkit). The games original design had 0 pugging but we begged to be allowed to pug and so it was allowed but with the warning when you entered.

The mode is and was always for playing as a group, just that you can actually play as a group without being in a premade. That's sorta turned into lostech at this point so maybe removing pugging from FW is an option but every time we bring that up we get some dedicated pugs who show up and say 'don't do that, I like pugging in FW'. I'm good either way.

FW was a much larger segment and is still a larger segment than, say, comp queue and likely group queue (anymore I get longer waits for group queue) but that population decline wasn't due to a lack of a matchmaker but a lack of the originally promised depth and purpose.

How is it odd that there is a tiny fraction of the player base that likes a terribly balanced game mode and stuck around despite that fact?

Most players left because of that. Probably at 10:1 to players who were around long enough to even contenplate unit play.

[RjBass3]

buryingbeetle, on 01 December 2017 - 04:26 PM, said:

I understand the idea of "Faction Play" being for serious players.

Ummm no. Faction play isn't for serious players. Comp play is for serious players. Faction play is just a different game mode with re-spawn and nothing more.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Wolfways, on 05 December 2017 - 03:41 AM, said:

Sorry, I didn't realise that pugs weren't a part of the community.

Which is a good reason why other games include a matchmaker.

lol
It doesn't contradict my statement at all...unless of course I'm always put on really bad teams, but I'd say that generally being one of the highest damage dealers and match scores means I'm doing okay. Not bad for 20fps

Why do you keep bringing up assault mechs? When did I ever complain about stock assaults being bad? Maybe you're confusing me with someone else.

Oh and btw, my KDR will always be low because I choose to keep it low. I prefer playing support builds that help my team get kills. Getting them myself means nothing to me.

Dakota1000, on 05 December 2017 - 03:24 AM, said:

First step is acceptance.

[MischiefSC]

Ghogiel, on 05 December 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

How is it odd that there is a tiny fraction of the player base that likes a terribly balanced game mode and stuck around despite that fact?

Most players left because of that. Probably at 10:1 to players who were around long enough to even contenplate unit play.

Okay, where's your evidence for that?

Because I played with literally thousands of people and every single TS and dropped with most of the active units in FW, and did so for a couple of years.

I was in a whatsapp with the unit leadership for about a dozen units, all with a large player base and regularly talking about exactly what people were upset about.

As I've got my mech bays from every faction and played in every faction TS for thousands and thousands of drops I've talked about it with a lot of people. The only ones who really complained about it were comp tier units who got bored (also, in part, because there wasn't anything to keep them there except grinding matches) and pugs who want to play like it's QP.

The disparity between unit skill was what helped people learn to GIT GUD and drove the space nerd politics that kept so many people there.

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 05 December 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

Okay, where's your evidence for that?

Because I played with literally thousands of people and every single TS and dropped with most of the active units in FW, and did so for a couple of years.

I was in a whatsapp with the unit leadership for about a dozen units, all with a large player base and regularly talking about exactly what people were upset about.

As I've got my mech bays from every faction and played in every faction TS for thousands and thousands of drops I've talked about it with a lot of people. The only ones who really complained about it were comp tier units who got bored (also, in part, because there wasn't anything to keep them there except grinding matches) and pugs who want to play like it's QP.

The disparity between unit skill was what helped people learn to GIT GUD and drove the space nerd politics that kept so many people there.

Your anecdote about the small minority of players that were in units is noted. And filed under useless miopic opinions.

I mean I don't know what you want me to say about your extremely limited perspective of the game. I was involved with units from day one while you were still doing who knows what. I really don't care if you think you know more of the small fraction of players in MWO that were in units a year after FP was dead, you probably don't, and who cares anyway. You'll just carry on ignoring the biggest part of the player base entirely anyway.

[GutterBoy5]

whats Moronic ? if they cant be bothered using VOIP then they Lazy, or LFG then lazy, all im saying the means of join up with people are there ,communication with people is there . if they chose not to use it then they lazy. i solo drop FW but try to communicate via voip or use LFG , if i dont then its cause im being lazy, but i then dont go away and cry & say teams should be better than me.
if people drop solo then they should expect the odds to be against them.

[Wolfways]

Marquis De Lafayette, on 05 December 2017 - 05:53 AM, said:

If you were playing support decently it would balance out. Unless you are telling us that you are running around in a 3x ams Kit fox all the time...in which case, stop doing that.

Why stop doing that? I support my team with AMS (although LRM's are pretty scarce lately) and ECM.

Quote

Reality based on those stats (in QP) is that the side with you on it both loses more than it wins and you also die way more than you kill. To improve your experience you need to see the implications of that correlation and accept that making MWO a better place for you starts within your own gameplay. The good news is that many, many players have walked this road and become very good players....others ignore reality and substitute their own alternative narrative, where they are the victim and if others would just change (or if PGI would change things for them) they would be awesome.

A KDR of 0.99 is me dying "way more" than I kill? I do accept that my KDR has significantly dropped since clans came out, but that's because there's no customization for omnimechs so they are much harder to play than battlemechs.
Also, for some reason, over time my fps in MWO has dropped to the point where it's almost impossible to play. In fact, yesterday it dropped to 5fps, so unless someone fixes whatever is broken I'll not be playing anymore anyway. So at least then the elitists can rejoice over losing another player.