466 replies to this topic

[OmniFail]

Horseman, on 11 December 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Basically. I would not agree about a need to redesign them.

4XLRM15 is noob bait - too hot, not enough space for adequate ammo. My AWS-8R runs 3xALRM15, TAG (in arm), BAP and 2xML, and the rule of thumb is to be on the front line, tagging my own targets whenever possible. If I don't screw up, 2-3 kills and 600-800 dmg is a norm - although in favorable conditions (read: Polar or Frozen).

No, I'm not one of those "all the lurms all the time" people - I have seven LRM builds among the hundred mechs in my collection.

Your LRM mech is obsolete. The SNV-A is the top of the food chain for LRM boats. More lasers, lots-o-ammo, runs cool has some bells and whistles.

[MischiefSC]

Horseman, on 11 December 2017 - 12:13 PM, said:

Basically. I would not agree about a need to redesign them.

4XLRM15 is noob bait - too hot, not enough space for adequate ammo. My AWS-8R runs 3xALRM15, TAG (in arm), BAP and 2xML, and the rule of thumb is to be on the front line, tagging my own targets whenever possible. If I don't screw up, 2-3 kills and 600-800 dmg is a norm - although in favorable conditions (read: Polar or Frozen).

No, I'm not one of those "all the lurms all the time" people - I have seven LRM builds among the hundred mechs in my collection.

I still say LRMs are bad, but I have respect for the LRM 45 8R. With the quirks it has and played on the front line, tagging its own targets and shooting at sub-500m so it's got the short travel time it's a rock solid performer. It's literally the only time I don't face-palm to see an LRM assault on my team and I absolutely will do my best to protect one who's doing exactly what you describe, because he's going to lay down some effective damage. I treat those a lot like 3xATM9 Clan builds - push it if you can, otherwise tread carefully because if he gets you where he wants you it's going to hurt really, really bad.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 12:25 PM, said:

Bad math is bad.

LRMs rarely get 30% damage per ton from their ammo and their functional DPS is absolutely horrible. Completely horrible. Hence the time it took him to burn down the Atlas. In, say, even a Splatbacker with 5 SRM6s I could do a comparable damage in 1/2 the time, because I'm getting almost all 60 damage on target (spread around but on target) every time. 60 tubes of LRMs are firing more slowly and putting 30-40 damage on the target... if even, with no AMS and no real cover.

LRMs are crap for damage, crap for killing mechs.

The only thing they are good at, at all, his shooting at targets to get some sort of damage while hiding. This lets you live longer to pad your stats at the expense of losing more matches because your teammates are fighting 11 v 12. It's why running LRMs may pad your damage but hurts your w/l. LRMs are a game losing weapon. Which is why everyone who's a top performer for win/loss doesn't take LRMs.

I get lots of kills. As a competent player. Even with only 30% damage return I out perform most direct fire builds by 50% damage on average in a game. How many LRM's have you fired in you career anyway and what exactly did you mean by my teammates running at 11 v 12 anyway?

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

I still say LRMs are bad, but I have respect for the LRM 45 8R. With the quirks it has and played on the front line, tagging its own targets and shooting at sub-500m so it's got the short travel time it's a rock solid performer. It's literally the only time I don't face-palm to see an LRM assault on my team and I absolutely will do my best to protect one who's doing exactly what you describe, because he's going to lay down some effective damage. I treat those a lot like 3xATM9 Clan builds - push it if you can, otherwise tread carefully because if he gets you where he wants you it's going to hurt really, really bad.

As a good lurm boater I would rather have another medium laser on the front than a tag. Gotta use the right tools at the right time in a lurm boat.

[MischiefSC]

OmniFail, on 11 December 2017 - 12:28 PM, said:

Your LRM mech is obsolete. The SNV-A is the top of the food chain for LRM boats. More lasers, lots-o-ammo, runs cool has some bells and whistles.

The 8R will **** all over the LRM SNV.

It's a tiny bit faster, with quirks for 20% cooldown and 10% velocity, better mobility and 10 tons lighter. With its quirks he's only got about 0.2 less DPS for the missiles, which due to 10% velocity quirks and IS launch as 1 block dynamics plus tighter grouping is going to be significantly more effective.

With the 8Rs significant ST and CT structure quirks it literally has the same total torso and CT hitpoints as the 10 tons heavier SNV, while having better shield arms and mobility.

8R is top tier LRM boat, which is sorta like saying you have the least ugly car out of your friends who all have ugly cars but still.

SNV is a solid ERLL boat. Boiler can do an interesting ERLL + Gauss setup. If you've got a team carrying you it can do ATMs, though it's going to be hot (for burst). There are not good LRM assaults though. Taking an LRM assault is like taking a 12 flamer Nova. You're really just hoping your team is good enough to carry you so you can pad your stats and play a giggle build.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

LRM's are the most efficient weapon in the game when it comes to dealing damage and focusing fire with teammates. That being said LRM's are inefficient at delivering pin point damage. But so are SRM's, SSRM's, and LBX

This is untrue.

LRMs are inefficient at dealing damage, at least in a useful sense. They spread, that's true. What's bad is that you can't even put that spread "circle" on a specific point and at least shotgun that area, like SRMs or LB-X...who can direct their damage, and improve at it as they close range and spread lessens vs. the target. Even Streaks have the ability to avoid destroyed sections and hence damage reduction. Damage that doesn't hit vital points is just meaningless numbers, which is generally why you trim 25-33 percent of a missile boat's damage score to get a comparable direct fire user's numbers. LRMs don't. ATM's don't either, but at least they increase damage as they close, which makes up for it to some extent. Putting 2-3 times the damage into the same old circle means more of that damage hits something useful, after all.

[MischiefSC]

OmniFail, on 11 December 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

I get lots of kills. As a competent player. Even with only 30% damage return I out perform most direct fire builds by 50% damage on average in a game. How many LRM's have you fired in you career anyway and what exactly did you mean by my teammates running at 11 v 12 anyway?



As a good lurm boater I would rather have another medium laser on the front than a tag. Gotta use the right tools at the right time in a lurm boat.

If you're not in front sharing armor then your team is playing a man down. If you're not very good with direct fire your personal stats may show that, however as a weapon LRMs are both inefficient at killing mechs and inefficient at doing damage within a given time window. I can do 800 damage in my Marauder in about 30 seconds, taken as armor damage - the damage you're seeing at the end of the match is padded by crits and component destruction (you blow a ST off you get the damage value for the arm on that ST, etc). So in practice direct fire is doing about 2x the damage in a given window. LRMs get you a lot of damage because you're using your team as pug armor. You're living longer because you're letting your team draw all the fire, so you've got more time to get your shots off.

LRMs are great for padding stats. Bad for winning matches.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

If you're not in front sharing armor then your team is playing a man down. If you're not very good with direct fire your personal stats may show that, however as a weapon LRMs are both inefficient at killing mechs and inefficient at doing damage within a given time window. I can do 800 damage in my Marauder in about 30 seconds, taken as armor damage - the damage you're seeing at the end of the match is padded by crits and component destruction (you blow a ST off you get the damage value for the arm on that ST, etc). So in practice direct fire is doing about 2x the damage in a given window. LRMs get you a lot of damage because you're using your team as pug armor. You're living longer because you're letting your team draw all the fire, so you've got more time to get your shots off.

LRMs are great for padding stats. Bad for winning matches.

In the age of er-large laser spam armor sharing is a myth. Focused fire is the only reality.

Brain Cancer, on 11 December 2017 - 12:46 PM, said:

This is untrue.

LRMs are inefficient at dealing damage, at least in a useful sense. They spread, that's true. What's bad is that you can't even put that spread "circle" on a specific point and at least shotgun that area, like SRMs or LB-X...who can direct their damage, and improve at it as they close range and spread lessens vs. the target. Even Streaks have the ability to avoid destroyed sections and hence damage reduction. Damage that doesn't hit vital points is just meaningless numbers, which is generally why you trim 25-33 percent of a missile boat's damage score to get a comparable direct fire user's numbers. LRMs don't. ATM's don't either, but at least they increase damage as they close, which makes up for it to some extent. Putting 2-3 times the damage into the same old circle means more of that damage hits something useful, after all.

If LRM's did focused damage like lasers you guys would call for nerfs so you could post about how bad they where again.

Edited by OmniFail, 11 December 2017 - 12:51 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

If you're not in front sharing armor then your team is playing a man down.

If you're not in the firing line in a missile boat, you're doing it wrong.

That being said, learning how to missile poke is critical. You can LOS with minimal exposure in many cases, drawing fire and getting off salvos with relative ease- once you learn how. Learning to dump missiles just over the lip of a hill, flicking the launchers up to get clearance for the launch. You draw fire. You maximize your armor.

It's one of those things you learn to do to push against the skill ceiling and shove it an inch or two closer than the ten-foot gap between laservomit and anything that takes more time to fire than a laser needs to burn.

[MischiefSC]

OmniFail, on 11 December 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

In the age of er-large laser spam armor sharing is a myth. Focused fire is the only reality.



If LRM's did focused damage like lasers you guys would call for nerfs so you could post about how bad they where again.

Armor sharing is about presenting a target. Focused fire is about focused damage to quickly kill mechs. 800 damage in a Deathstrike would be like 8 KMDDs. You could just about get 12 kills with 800 damage with direct fire.

If LRMs required the same level of skill to get 800 damage out of that even laservomit does this would never come up. It would also mean that having 800 damage average games for LRMs would give the same 2.25 w/l rate that that level of damage with direct fire creates - because it's driving wins, not padding your stats.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

The 8R will **** all over the LRM SNV.

lol ok.... On the front line 4xMPL is better than 2 ML. 4xLRM15+A is better than 3xLRM15.

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 01:02 PM, said:

Armor sharing is about presenting a target. Focused fire is about focused damage to quickly kill mechs. 800 damage in a Deathstrike would be like 8 KMDDs. You could just about get 12 kills with 800 damage with direct fire.

If LRMs required the same level of skill to get 800 damage out of that even laservomit does this would never come up. It would also mean that having 800 damage average games for LRMs would give the same 2.25 w/l rate that that level of damage with direct fire creates - because it's driving wins, not padding your stats.

No matter what weapons you use you should avoid using your precious armor. This is why you guys die like lemmings.

[Brain Cancer]

Actually, given the Awesome's boosts, it's 45 LRMs are quite comparable to a Clan LRM 60.

Now, if you're going CLRM80, that's a different story and a Supernova-A can manage it just fine. The Supernova does tend to have better point defense and doesn't suffer from boxcar hitboxes.

[H Seldon]

LRMs are a support weapon meant to do damage when approaching the enemy at range and when you don't have direct line of sight. They are a nuisance at best. I've been playing this game a long time and I do have builds that use LRMs, but they are always a backup weapon. Now ATMs are a different story.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

The 8R will **** all over the LRM SNV.

It's a tiny bit faster, with quirks for 20% cooldown and 10% velocity, better mobility and 10 tons lighter. With its quirks he's only got about 0.2 less DPS for the missiles, which due to 10% velocity quirks and IS launch as 1 block dynamics plus tighter grouping is going to be significantly more effective.

With the 8Rs significant ST and CT structure quirks it literally has the same total torso and CT hitpoints as the 10 tons heavier SNV, while having better shield arms and mobility.

8R is top tier LRM boat, which is sorta like saying you have the least ugly car out of your friends who all have ugly cars but still.

SNV is a solid ERLL boat. Boiler can do an interesting ERLL + Gauss setup. If you've got a team carrying you it can do ATMs, though it's going to be hot (for burst). There are not good LRM assaults though. Taking an LRM assault is like taking a 12 flamer Nova. You're really just hoping your team is good enough to carry you so you can pad your stats and play a giggle build.

Just want to let you know bro. I'm still laughing.

[MischiefSC]

OmniFail, on 11 December 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

lol ok.... On the front line 4xMPL is better than 2 ML. 4xLRM15+A is better than 3xLRM15.



No matter what weapons you use you should avoid using your precious armor. This is why you guys die like lemmings.

The 3xLRM15As on the 8R do almost exactly the same DPS but being IS LRMs get through AMS better and hit targets of opportunity better.

The enemy is always shooting, just like you are. If you're presenting them fewer targest the ones they have get shot more. Someone is always getting shot at. Your approach is to make that teammates; so they die faster so you last longer. Buffs your stats, however your team loses.

It is, literally, a losers strategy.

LRM SNV is a **** mech. 8R only good LRM assault.

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 11 December 2017 - 01:07 PM, said:

Actually, given the Awesome's boosts, it's 45 LRMs are quite comparable to a Clan LRM 60.

Now, if you're going CLRM80, that's a different story and a Supernova-A can manage it just fine. The Supernova does tend to have better point defense and doesn't suffer from boxcar hitboxes.

Faster missiles, one block of 45, the absolutely both all hit the same locations more than Clan LRM 60 (or even 80) plus plow through AMS much, much better. Also mechs with short exposure can shrug off most of the CLRMs with ease, not so much the IS LRMs, especially with the velocity boost.

8R, played at reasonably close range (which it can do reasonably well) is actually worth its tonnage. An LRM SNV absolutely is not.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 01:28 PM, said:

The 3xLRM15As on the 8R do almost exactly the same DPS but being IS LRMs get through AMS better and hit targets of opportunity better.

The enemy is always shooting, just like you are. If you're presenting them fewer targest the ones they have get shot more. Someone is always getting shot at. Your approach is to make that teammates; so they die faster so you last longer. Buffs your stats, however your team loses.

It is, literally, a losers strategy.

LRM SNV is a **** mech. 8R only good LRM assault.

So the 8R is not better. The thought is just laughable.

You keep saying my approach is to make my teammates take hits for me. This is not true. You are making stuff up. I never asked anybody to take a AC for me and I don't expect anybody to do it for me.

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 01:36 PM, said:

Faster missiles, one block of 45, the absolutely both all hit the same locations more than Clan LRM 60 (or even 80) plus plow through AMS much, much better. Also mechs with short exposure can shrug off most of the CLRMs with ease, not so much the IS LRMs, especially with the velocity boost.

8R, played at reasonably close range (which it can do reasonably well) is actually worth its tonnage. An LRM SNV absolutely is not.

I play my SNV-A close all the time bro. My 4MPL would own the two er-ML.

I'm beginning to believe that you have no idea what your saying. It feels like your saying just to say.

Edited by OmniFail, 11 December 2017 - 01:45 PM.

[MischiefSC]

OmniFail, on 11 December 2017 - 01:43 PM, said:

So the 8R is not better. The thought is just laughable.

You keep saying my approach is to make my teammates take hits for me. This is not true. You are making stuff up. I never asked anybody to take a AC for me and I don't expect anybody to do it for me.


I play my SNV-A close all the time bro. My 4MPL would own the two er-ML.

I'm beginning to believe that you have no idea what your saying. It feels like your saying just to say.

The 8R does almost identical DPS to your SNV and has better sustained DPS, as it it can keep it up longer. The LRMs for the IS hit all in one bunch - it's like an SRM 45 in that regard. Your LRM 60 spreads out. The TAG is critical because it means you're up front, relatively close, getting your own locks - it also significantly increases damage clustering. You can't even shoot all your LRMs at once due to ghost heat which means most of your shots are going to hit walls and its all going to scatter like crazy.

Your build is about as inefficient at killing mechs as anyone could want.

Your win/loss is almost exactly 1.0, on a good month. That means you literally only win because you're carried. Your impact on your teams winning or losing is, literally, 0. Having you on the team in no way improves the odds of the team winning. More than anything else that's the biggest judgement on the build.

Maybe an 8R wouldn't help you, because it would require you to play aggressively and understand what actually wins matches and kills mechs. Not how to best farm max damage while getting carried.

[Khobai]

my four tag atlas is better than both of those

Quote

I play my SNV-A close all the time bro. My 4MPL would own the two er-ML.

and thats exactly why your SNV is worse

4 MPL instead of 4 TAG

Edited by Khobai, 11 December 2017 - 01:53 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

LRMs are a support weapon meant to do damage when approaching the enemy at range and when you don't have direct line of sight. They are a nuisance at best. I've been playing this game a long time and I do have builds that use LRMs, but they are always a backup weapon. Now ATMs are a different story.

This may be the horror MWO turned them into, but the original weapon was nothing of the sort. It was a weapon that hit in 5-damage groups, not one-damage pings. They fell neatly between big FLD weapons like PPC/Gauss and critseekers like SRMs/LB-X cluster rounds. They did not suffer from massively inferior accuracy, were not soaked up by random terrain, or bent over and violated from behind when someone felt like bringing a bunch of ECM to the match.

There's a reason there's a lot of LRM robots (especially Clan ones) even though they're ancient by tech standards in TT. They remained an effective primary weapon system.

If MWO's LRM damage followed TT's model, we'd actually see "flights" of five missiles hitting things, rather than the sprinkle we get now. It'd instantly upgrade the weapon system's effectiveness.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 11 December 2017 - 01:51 PM, said:

The 8R does almost identical DPS to your SNV and has better sustained DPS, as it it can keep it up longer. The LRMs for the IS hit all in one bunch - it's like an SRM 45 in that regard. Your LRM 60 spreads out. The TAG is critical because it means you're up front, relatively close, getting your own locks - it also significantly increases damage clustering. You can't even shoot all your LRMs at once due to ghost heat which means most of your shots are going to hit walls and its all going to scatter like crazy.

Your build is about as inefficient at killing mechs as anyone could want.

Your win/loss is almost exactly 1.0, on a good month. That means you literally only win because you're carried. Your impact on your teams winning or losing is, literally, 0. Having you on the team in no way improves the odds of the team winning. More than anything else that's the biggest judgement on the build.

Maybe an 8R wouldn't help you, because it would require you to play aggressively and understand what actually wins matches and kills mechs. Not how to best farm max damage while getting carried.

Bro you have no idea how i play. Your just making stuff up. You see and hear LRM and you think im hiding 800m out. You act like if a mech has lrms on it that the person is a noob without direct fire for close range. You talk about tag and getting my own locks. If im in someones face im not gonna tag and lurm them im gonna work them with the lasers. What is going on in your brains. You say lrms suck because they spread damage. But weapons that you like that spread damage are ok. You guys talk about sharing armor then go snipe with the er-large laser (previously the gauss/ppc).