144 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

When you analyze Battletech, it's really an odd combination of conflicting ideas.

You have influence from anime with fast action robots with instant kill speed and ninja moves, but at the same time, you have the idea of mech pilots being more like gritty and grunge tank drivers.

Thus create some of the most confusing plot element to the whole "battletech" universe. Why are mechwarriors even the center piece?

The fact is, because of the way mechs are... they are NOT for intergalactic conflicts. As self sustaining robots, they are great for planetary deployment with different atmospheric conditions. But, in a galaxy measured by light years, what the hell is a 30 foot robot with the top speed of 150kph (pretty much slower than the top speed of my Toyota Yaris) going to do?

Now, that universe only makes sense if how ninja robots work like in Gundam that have some sort of neurological controls with pretty much direct human to mech interface, where robots can move in absurd fashion AND do incredible damages to starships. (IE: See how Gundam particle canons can take out a literal falling asteroid)

But in a gear and pegs setup with top speed of not even a modern commuter car... the universe is just way too big. I mean, is Hans Davion really going to conquer a planet of 2 billion with 200 battle mechs that takes 20 years to go around a planet? (and we are talking about countless planets too)

So that's where the Battletech universe completely falls apart.

Rather than jazzing up the Battletech robots to be more like ninja gundams, I think most people love the feel of a gritty retro feel of battlemechs. That's honestly the whole point of Mechwarrior the game. So all these mercenary starship jump travel with intergalactic conflicts... they are just... out of place.

So I propose, instead of making the robots more futuristic to fit an unrealistically big world, what if we just make the universe smaller?

Imagine, year is 3000, humanity after 1000 years is still barely in the infancy of space travel. (cause you know, space travel is hard, and the 1k year we are going to jump around light year planets is overly optimistic anyways)

Earth is screwed up by 1k years of warfare, environment has changed, tech has been build, destroyed, and rebuild (sound familiar so far?). And the only dominant fighting units left, is the centerpiece of our much smaller scale universe (Earth)... the battlemechs. They are complex enough to be self sustaining against the changed earth atmosphere, yet simple enough to be designed as a gears and pegs machine of low maintenance requirement.

Multiple factions, occupying various landmass of earth (which, in 1k, shouldn't be that different... maybe California moved a little to flood the current LA area) now fight for control of this broken world.

The energized atmosphere with advanced anti-air shield has rendered flights dangerous and costly. As a mech pilot, your skillset of controlling a machine that can deploy low tech ammunition to perform a saturated attack makes you the most important person on the battlefield...

Cue gritty robot intro with foot soldiers CoD style interacting in an epic cinema featuring ruined New York...

BOOM, universe instantly recreated for the modern era, relatable and logical, . You're welcome, internet.

Edited by razenWing, 14 December 2017 - 10:08 PM.

[El Bandito]

I like the pre-Jihad BT universe in all its 80's campiness just as is. Do not want it to change one bit. If I want "Earth that is screwed up by warfare" setting, I'd play other games, like Armored Core.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 December 2017 - 10:11 PM.

[razenWing]

El Bandito, on 14 December 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

I like the pre-Jihad BT universe in all its 80's campiness just as is. Do not want it to change one bit.

Nothing is changed. Just everything takes place on earth instead of a random giant @ss universe.

[El Bandito]

razenWing, on 14 December 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

Nothing is changed. Just everything takes place on earth instead of a random giant @ss universe.

El Bandito, on 14 December 2017 - 10:10 PM, said:

If I want "Earth that is screwed up by warfare" setting, I'd play other games, like Armored Core.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Maybe your getting confused with Gundam, but Battlemechs aren't the ninja jumping, take out whole armies with one super move/extremely powerful beam attack robots from anime. In BT, mechs are ground combatants, the evolution of armored vehicles like tanks. They can operate in vacuum and other hostile environments, but aerospace fighters are what is used in the BT universe for 'space' battles. And they get from different planets by being carried by 'spaceships' in the form of BT's jumpships, and deployed to planets inside dropships. If you want some crazy post apocalyptic anime robot game, best to move on from here, that's not what this game is.

[razenWing]

Tincan Nightmare, on 14 December 2017 - 10:15 PM, said:

Maybe your getting confused with Gundam, but Battlemechs aren't the ninja jumping, take out whole armies with one super move/extremely powerful beam attack robots from anime. In BT, mechs are ground combatants, the evolution of armored vehicles like tanks. They can operate in vacuum and other hostile environments, but aerospace fighters are what is used in the BT universe for 'space' battles. And they get from different planets by being carried by 'spaceships' in the form of BT's jumpships, and deployed to planets inside dropships. If you want some crazy post apocalyptic anime robot game, best to move on from here, that's not what this game is.

I think you need to re-read what I wrote.

El Bandito, on 14 December 2017 - 10:12 PM, said:

Yea, but Armored Core Mech design sucks. (why do you quote yourself?)

Edited by razenWing, 14 December 2017 - 10:22 PM.

[xRatas]

I think you're free to design your own scifi setting any time. Please don't suggest setting, that has been around for lmost 30 years and is enjoyed by a lot of people, needs to be changed.

There are quite different rules of engagement in Battletech than in our real world and those 200 mechs are just the elite force in conventional army, so it doesn't fall apard half as bad as you suggest. And then again, we enjoy our 80's spaceopera just the way it is. Not everything needs to make sense, as long as it is good enterntainment.

[Savage Wolf]

The Battletech fanbase is extremely conservative and does not respond well to change. At least not the part that is still left. I've suggested my share of changes to modernize the universe or it's rules but it is always met with nerd rage.

So I've concluded that it's better to just wait until a new and better universe emerges that can still be molded.

[Y E O N N E]

Of all the reasons to re-write BattleTech, the setting being "too big" is not a strong one.

[El Bandito]

razenWing, on 14 December 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

Yea, but Armored Core Mech design sucks. (why do you quote yourself?)

Quoted cause I already wrote it in the previous post.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

Battletech without the crazy schizo-tech, Byzantine neo-feudalistic politics, and massive interstellar wars would simply not be Battletech anymore. It would be some other setting.

...which Harmony Gold would doubtless immediately try to extort over the recycling of several stompy robbit designs that they didn't even create.

[BumbleBee]

In Battletech most planets only have small populations and several cities, not to mention the IS is coming out of centuries of civil war with broken tech that has been repaired on the cheap and nasty by people who don't truly understand how it all works, with new spare parts being almost non-existent. Taking over a planet with 100 Mechs is not so far from believable in-universe

The Clans, while having a major Tech advantage, are very resource poor (and very long logistics lines) and as such have comparatively few Mechs and pilots, so again its somewhat believable from an in-universe perspective

Edited by BumbleBee, 14 December 2017 - 11:53 PM.

[BumbleBee]

One thing that would improve the misunderstandings of Battletech lore would be for an Archive Holoprojector to be added to the game, just like there was in MechWarrior 2 : 31st Century Combat.

I found an online link to the Clan Jade Falcon one http://scandal.tripo...jector/main.htm

That was where I was introduced to the lore. I probably spent almost as much time reading it as I did playing the game.

If PGI is interested, I'm sure there are members of the community who would be happy to do some pages for it. This would be a great way to potentially introduce players into the lore and expand the community

[razenWing]

BumbleBee, on 14 December 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

In Battletech most planets only have small populations and several cities, not to mention the IS is coming out of centuries of civil war with broken tech that has been repaired on the cheap and nasty by people who don't truly understand how it all works, with new spare parts being almost non-existent. Taking over a planet with 100 Mechs is not so far from believable in-universe

The Clans, while having a major Tech advantage, are very resource poor (and very long logistics lines) and as such have comparatively few Mechs and pilots, so again its somewhat believable from an in-universe perspective

even if you have a planet of 5 cities, how do you plan on overtaking them with 100 men? Do they need bathroom breaks? Do they need to administrate? Do they need to step into their new office?

So unless your plan is to annihilate all 5 cities with dropships ferrying you (which, as mech games so far have suggested, you will need about 5 dropships of supplies in addition), you are not "conquering" anything.

That's why my earth idea is much more... realistic. If your robots can't do ninja moves at Mach 5, then it's probably more like modern combat where a MBT (your mech) is supported by squads of infantry with logistic support from CAS and other units. (which means, you will need thousands upon thousands of men for even 1 city siege)

Earth will be able to provide on an immediate basis a background with the human resource and a confined enough battle space where a Toyota Yaris speed war machine (and keep in mind, that's only the light mechs, you can reverse faster than pretty much all the assault mechs in game) is not overburdened by logistics.

If anything, I think the new setting adds more grit by painting the focus closer to the battle itself than the jumpship interstellar technobabble.

But again, that's just me.

Edited by razenWing, 15 December 2017 - 12:22 AM.

[jss78]

As far as why we focus on mechwarriors, it's just that people identify best with other people, instead of myomers and actuators. Hence while we have these walking war machines -- which are cool and the reason why the rest of the universe had to be made up -- we also have these cool people with their 1980s haircuts sitting in them.

I'm also not sure BattleTech describes wars as being fought by a handful of 'mechs. As I understand a heck of a lot of war in the BattleTech universe is being fought by other forces, with entire regional wars undertaken without the involvement of BattleMechs. It's just that a lot of the fiction and games -- and as an extreme example MWO -- chooses to focus on the BattleMechs, which are these elite units being ferried around to key locations in the conflicts.

After the BattleMechs deal with the key military assets and installations, presumably far bigger but lighter invasion forces would step in.

[BumbleBee]

razenWing, on 15 December 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:

even if you have a planet of 5 cities, how do you plan on overtaking them with 100 men? Do they need bathroom breaks? Do they need to administrate? Do they need to step into their new office?

So unless your plan is to annihilate all 5 cities with dropships ferrying you (which, as mech games so far have suggested, you will need about 5 dropships of supplies in addition), you are not "conquering" anything.

That's why my earth idea is much more... realistic. If your robots can't do ninja moves at Mach 5, then it's probably more like modern combat where a MBT (your mech) is supported by squads of infantry with logistic support from CAS and other units. (which means, you will need thousands upon thousands of men for even 1 city siege)

Earth will be able to provide on an immediate basis a background with the human resource and a confined enough battle space where a Toyota Yaris speed war machine (and keep in mind, that's only the light mechs, you can reverse faster than pretty much all the assault mechs in game) is not overburdened by logistics.

If anything, I think the new setting adds more grit by painting the focus closer to the battle itself than the jumpship interstellar technobabble.

But again, that's just me.

Have a look at some of the links in the Archive Holoprojector i put a link to. This is the text from one of them

Quote

Payment Due

[color="#00ff00"]Date with a Dragonfly
The explosions rocked the hillside and shook us inside our suits. Making a quick check, I saw that all systems were still operational, but the blast had stirred up y nerves. Clan Nova Cat was closing in on our 'Mechs, and Colonel Wolf had given the word that we were to move in. There were ten of us total, two squads of five. Just on the other side of the hill were another fifty or so of our boys, in power suits like us. Major Marx told us this would be our first "field test" of battle armor in a "combat-rich environment." It wasn't until a spray of shrapnel from the Nova Cats rained down on me that I realized that this was no test, but the real thing.[/color]
[color="#00ff00"]The Nova Cats waded right into Beta Regiment with everything they had, turning the road below us into a wild melee of fire. I wondered if anything could survive that inferno. Then I saw it, lumbering past a Dragoon Firefly and moving toward our position. An OmniMech, DragonflyClass. It had come through the fight with only a scratch or two, and now had broken through the lines. At a signal from me, my squad and I charged that ungodly looking thing in our gorilla suits. My SRM boys let go with their volleys, clobbering the 'Mech's legs. The rest of us just jumped and latched onto the 'Mech. Almost immediately the pilot began to try and shake us off. We held on, ripping away at his armor. I saw Lewison jab his laser into a joining plate in the ferro-fibrous armor and let go with a shot that tore up the Omni's internal guts.[/color]
[color="#00ff00"]That crazy pilot kept on fighting. I saw him turn his PPC on Tuller, who was still on the ground. A bright blue flash, and then Tuller wasn't there any more. Against that kind of weapon, he didn't stand a chance. I scrambled to the cockpit of that monster, all the time thinking of Tuller. Jabbing my laser into a small power port, I fired, shot after shot. Each blast seemed to dig deeper, and after three minutes of firing, it was all over. My shots had killed the warrior. Looking around, I saw the rest of our company giving the same treatment to two dark blue Nova Cat Pumas further up the hillside.[/color]
[color="#00ff00"]I have been through many battles on many worlds. But since the day I stood on that Dragonfly, looking down over the Combine capital as the rest of the Dragoons pushed back the Nova Cats, my outlook has never been the same.
[/color]
[color="#00ff00"]Luthien, Tairakana Plains, 5 January 3052[/color]
[color="#00ff00"]When the Clans closed in the Luthien, Hanse Davion could also have struck at the Combine, probably dealing a killing blow. Instead he did the unthinkable, reinforcing the capital of his former enemy against the common foe of the Clans. Though the decision was difficult, his choice of the units he would send to shore up the defense of Luthien was not. He assigned the elite mercenary forces of Wolf's Dragoons and the Kell hounds to help save the Combine capital.[/color]
[color="#00ff00"]Following the highway that cut through the Tairakana Plains, the attacking elements of the Smoke Jaguars and the Nova Cats bore down on the imperial city. On both hillsides surrounding their drive were teh Dragoons and Kell Hounds, pincering in on the enemy. Among the secret ploys Jaime Wolf had planned for the battle were his two companies of troops trained in the new Blackwell power suits and ready to enter the fight. Just as the Nova Cats were about to break through the Dragoon lines, he ordered these special shock troops into action.[/color]
[color="#00ff00"]Until then the Clans had only unconfirmed intelligence reports that the Inner Sphere had developed its own battle armor. The Wolf's Dragoons troops confirmed that nightmare. Though Clan MechWarriors were well-trained in fighting battle-suited troops, their sudden appearance caught them off guard. Expecting only normal anti-'Mech infantry, most of the Clan OmniMechs were not configured with anti-personnel pods. This gave a good fighting edge to the Inner Sphere power suits, whose mission was to destroy any Clan forces that broke through the lines. The battle-armored forces of the Dragoons' Beta Regiment got their first taste of battle, proving that the new method of fighting was in the Inner Sphere to stay.[/color]
[color="#00ff00"]The battle on Tairakana Plains lasted for hours, becoming one of the bloodiest in the history of the Inner Sphere. Though Beta Regiment's battle-armored forces suffered heavy casualties, they prevented the Nova Cat 'Mechs from penetrating the western Dragoon flank.[/color]

[Armored Yokai]

BattleMechs are really just tanks modeled after humans and replicate many of the movements humans are capable of performing, including acrobatic feats such as shoulder rolls, which allow them to avoid, deflect or otherwise lessen the impact of weapons fire and they can even perform a handstand in a controlled environment.

There's some technology that allows the pilot to get a better feel and bigger control of their mechs by using Direct Neural Interface but it's dangerous.

[TheDrgnRbrn]

Why would you want to change it to be more realistic? Giant walking tanks isn't very realistic from a modern-combat perspective anyways, but they are hella cool. Machine guns that only fire a few hundred meters aren't realistic, but makes for good gameplay. There isn't anything that is truly realistic about it, but thats kinda the point. Its a massive space opera, with semi-feudal feel, and Mechwarriors are the knights in shining armor that challenge each other to personal combat on the field of battle and such. It conveys that feeling, and that is the feeling it is meant to convey.

In all honesty, OP's idea has been done by dozens of games already, Armored Core being the first thing that generally comes to my mind. I don't think what is keeping Battletech from being more popular in the modern era is the background and lore, but the fact that people expect something very different from the video games, not to mention the tabletop. A change to the essential fabric of the Battletech Universe wouldn't fix that.

Besides, I am sure some designer somewhere would use the Warhammer in the the trailer for the game and get it sued into oblivion. Again.

[Armored Yokai]

TheDrgnRbrn, on 15 December 2017 - 01:03 AM, said:

Giant walking tanks isn't very realistic from a modern-combat perspective anyways.

Giant Walking Tanks are very possible, except there's no funding because we lack the proper resources and knowledge to make them and it's more efficient to use no-skill tanks and airplanes.

All we need is Muscle Fiber that reacts to energy and a strong power source (Fusion and Thorium but they are experimental)that doesn't rely on heavy liquid fuel.
we already have Bulletproof glass and strong see through aluminum to make the cockpit windows.

[visionGT4]

Armored Yokai, on 15 December 2017 - 01:22 AM, said:

Giant Walking Tanks are very possible, except there's no funding because we lack the proper resources and knowledge to make them and it's more efficient to use no-skill tanks and airplanes.

All we need is Muscle Fiber that reacts to energy and a strong power source (Fusion and Thorium but they are experimental)that doesn't rely on heavy liquid fuel.
we already have Bulletproof glass and strong see through aluminum to make the cockpit windows.

Technically possible but operationally limited due to the ground pressure issue