242 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 10:06 PM, said:

I just consider the RLs to make the mech really a perfect storm combination. The armor quirks plus the RL damage end up giving the Bushwacker basically a free trade and a half off the bat in terms of how much the Huntsman has to go through to catch up with the Bushwacker. The RLs spread damage, sure, but so do the SRMs of both teams. The RL damage is going to be a bit more spread than the SRMs, but due to the sheer volume of damage, you still get approximately an extra alpha's worth of damage off the bat to where you want it if we also consider the spread of SRMs when seeing how much of their printed damage hits where you aim.

It an advantage and I don't understand why you just play it off. If we're going based on the comp builds for the Huntsman we'd be sitting here with streaks and ERLLs if we're using the WC as an example. Its clear that the situation in scouting is totally different than that in comp, and thus calls for builds that wouldn't be seen in comp. You wouldn't really feel the impact of RLs that much on the team when you have the larger teams in comp matches, but when its 4 v 4 and the enemy gets in 320 points of extra damage before closing into SRM range that's enough to flat out vaporize one of the enemy's mechs if focus fire is a thing.

4v4 is different from 8v8 is different from 12v12. Numbers matter. I'm not even sure anyone has the time to prove you otherwise.

Quote

So the linebackers winning relies on a *massive* skill indifference that allows the linebackers to not only get a pincer on the archers, but also for the archers to be unable to counter coordinate to cover eachother and fight back. Alternatively it requires the linebackers to single out one guy at a time on the edge of the enemy group who isn't within his allies firing lines and having the linebackers form a conga line of alpha strikes that fires then gets out of range quickly.

We could also come up with a counter scenario in which the Archer team is equally skilled and positions there mechs well instead of in some way that allows a pincer or conga line to work, for example using cover and standing close enough together that any enemy who is in range of one archer is in range of multiple archers. Archers really aren't cripplingly slow like an Annihilator, they can still track targets just fine and have rather average movement profiles.

Wave vs wave I'd rather be on the 12 Archer team than the 12 Linebacker team, especially if we are playing by full FW rules where the IS team would have 55 tons left over for a 4th wave mech while the clans only have 45, though honestly I'd rather just use an Assassin to counter the potential Ice Ferret kite.

The problem with the Archer as a whole (you have yet to identify this) is that it is limited naturally by it's speed (Linebacker agility still is greater than the Archer, but it's top speed we're dealing with here - 97.2 vs... however slow an Archer tends to run - whether it is by a 275-300 or so STD engine)... your ability to move is actually very important. The only way a Light mech with its ****** firepower make any real work is running some mid-range weapons (good enough for the occasional surprise) or drawing attention to itself while someone else works on the primary target. Even if you feel there is a firepower advantage on the Archer, it doesn't have the effective responsiveness to "avoid damage". Assuming any semblance of skill, shooting a Light mech with SRMs is harder (depending on its shape, due to the "enlargening" a while back) than shooting an Archer or Linebacker. At peak skill, there's little to no differentiation - everything is "easy enough" to hit. That's going a little too much there. Either way, speed is still a factor... some people have next to zero predication on where/when to shoot a Light at top speed. While this is normally not a problem at high levels or even just the size of the Linebacker, some people still are unable to shoot things that run at high velocities. These are the people that struggle more, and this obviously requires a bit of skill - but even then is significantly influenced more by positioning - coming to a position that favors the guy that holds his ground. If a Light had to shoot its final enemy mech that's backed up to the wall, it's going to be a 1v1 fight that tends to favor that guy that positioned properly. That's still not the point.

Your mobility, or specifically just being weaker of it in the Archer is a weakness that can be exploited. It's not like the Linebacker doesn't have weaknesses to expose too - there's a certain point where it can be more difficult to coordinate slower mechs than faster mechs due to positioning. A light mech can reposition around an enemy, just like a Linebacker can to an extent. Archers don't quite have the same luxury, even given equal coordination.

I'm not even saying the Linebacker is comp-level, but it has niche applications that is very usable in comp-level and regular/CW matches. The Archer has a far more limited value and not understanding why that is... well, you're overrating IS aspects that in real play don't really pan out in MWO.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

4v4 is different from 8v8 is different from 12v12. Numbers matter. I'm not even sure anyone has the time to prove you otherwise.

Exactly what I'm saying, numbers matter.

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

The problem with the Archer as a whole (you have yet to identify this) is that it is limited naturally by it's speed (Linebacker agility still is greater than the Archer, but it's top speed we're dealing with here - 97.2 vs... however slow an Archer tends to run - whether it is by a 275-300 or so STD engine)... your ability to move is actually very important. The only way a Light mech with its ****** firepower make any real work is running some mid-range weapons (good enough for the occasional surprise) or drawing attention to itself while someone else works on the primary target. Even if you feel there is a firepower advantage on the Archer, it doesn't have the effective responsiveness to "avoid damage". Assuming any semblance of skill, shooting a Light mech with SRMs is harder (depending on its shape, due to the "enlargening" a while back) than shooting an Archer or Linebacker. At peak skill, there's little to no differentiation - everything is "easy enough" to hit. That's going a little too much there. Either way, speed is still a factor... some people have next to zero predication on where/when to shoot a Light at top speed. While this is normally not a problem at high levels or even just the size of the Linebacker, some people still are unable to shoot things that run at high velocities. These are the people that struggle more, and this obviously requires a bit of skill - but even then is significantly influenced more by positioning - coming to a position that favors the guy that holds his ground. If a Light had to shoot its final enemy mech that's backed up to the wall, it's going to be a 1v1 fight that tends to favor that guy that positioned properly. That's still not the point.

Your mobility, or specifically just being weaker of it in the Archer is a weakness that can be exploited. It's not like the Linebacker doesn't have weaknesses to expose too - there's a certain point where it can be more difficult to coordinate slower mechs than faster mechs due to positioning. A light mech can reposition around an enemy, just like a Linebacker can to an extent. Archers don't quite have the same luxury, even given equal coordination.

I'm not even saying the Linebacker is comp-level, but it has niche applications that is very usable in comp-level and regular/CW matches. The Archer has a far more limited value and not understanding why that is... well, you're overrating IS aspects that in real play don't really pan out in MWO.

Archer's running an LFE300, moves ~70kph.

A lot of what you say here in the linebacker's defense is just you comparing the pilot's skill of the two mechs rather than the two mechs. You're trying to tell me that 27 kph more speed outweighs a disadvantage in DPS, sustained dps, alpha, cooling, damage spread, durability, and tonnage.

You even said yourself that at higher skill levels the speed of the linebacker doesn't help at all when it comes to dodging shots. You also said that it takes a high level of skill to pull off the coordinated tactics that would lead to a linebacker win. Then you also state that positioning is a skill.

My counter is that if we're trying to compare mechs here then we must assume both pilots are of equal skill. If the linebackers have the skill to pincer the archers then the archers have the skill to hit them even though they're faster and they have the skill to outright counter a pincer tactic through proper positioning, how do you even manage to get pincered in FW when there's a clear chokepoint the enemy has to go through anyway if you are of equal skill to the team attempting it?

If we drop down to the skill level that you've been assuming the archers have where they can't manage to hit a linebacker of all things consistently, then I assert that the linebackers are unable to pilot well and just run in straight lines at the target, initiating a brawl with the mech and not exploiting its lower speed at all.

--

You even compared light mechs to linebackers. We all know that the only time lights get anything done is when there's a skill difference in the light compared to the other mechs, otherwise the light mech just gets popped with ease the moment it tries to attack.

Your argument's full of holes. Your logic is also flawed in your lack of care about the spread of SRMs without artemis on the clan side but yet you completely discount RLs due to their spread. The CSRMs would be fired at around 270m if they're doing the conga line in and out attacks you suggested, and thus the spread would be very prevalent, not just point blank, unless the are opening themselves up to the attacks of all of the archer's allies. Following your logic, I could entirely discount the attacks of those linebackers, just stating that their damage spreads all over It'd take half the team firing at one guy just to kill him.

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 10:54 PM, said:

Exactly what I'm saying, numbers matter.

Up to a point, you can't actually have an efficient enough firing line at short range. Such a thing hardly exists.

Quote

Archer's running an LFE300, moves ~70kph.

A lot of what you say here in the linebacker's defense is just you comparing the pilot's skill of the two mechs rather than the two mechs. You're trying to tell me that 27 kph more speed outweighs a disadvantage in DPS, sustained dps, alpha, cooling, damage spread, durability, and tonnage.

You even said yourself that at higher skill levels the speed of the linebacker doesn't help at all when it comes to dodging shots. You also said that it takes a high level of skill to pull off the coordinated tactics that would lead to a linebacker win. Then you also state that positioning is a skill.

My counter is that if we're trying to compare mechs here then we must assume both pilots are of equal skill. If the linebackers have the skill to pincer the archers then the archers have the skill to hit them even though they're faster and they have the skill to outright counter a pincer tactic through proper positioning, how do you even manage to get pincered in FW when there's a clear chokepoint the enemy has to go through anyway if you are of equal skill to the team attempting it?

If we drop down to the skill level that you've been assuming the archers have where they can't manage to hit a linebacker of all things consistently, then I assert that the linebackers are unable to pilot well and just run in straight lines at the target, initiating a brawl with the mech and not exploiting its lower speed at all.

--

You even compared light mechs to linebackers. We all know that the only time lights get anything done is when there's a skill difference in the light compared to the other mechs, otherwise the light mech just gets popped with ease the moment it tries to attack.

Your argument's full of holes. Your logic is also flawed in your lack of care about the spread of SRMs without artemis on the clan side but yet you completely discount RLs due to their spread. The CSRMs would be fired at around 270m if they're doing the conga line in and out attacks you suggested, and thus the spread would be very prevalent, not just point blank, unless the are opening themselves up to the attacks of all of the archer's allies. Following your logic, I could entirely discount the attacks of those linebackers, just stating that their damage spreads all over It'd take half the team firing at one guy just to kill him.

Sustained DPS matters if you are going to facehug/stare at your target for a long duration. The problem is that only if you are constantly shooting a target that doesn't play that game. You inevitably lose that game when there are more players involved. 1v1, sure, an Archer has a chance to beat a Linebacker. Given more players in the match, the group of Linebackers are more likely to have a field day over the limited group of Archers.

To generate the kind of proper pressure requires some level of coordination. Archers will not have enough speed to make the movements necessary to spread damage even if it gets the first shot. That and it is very disruptive and normally causes a brawl to start - which tends to favor the Linebackers more since it can kinda move out as needed (assuming it hadn't been legged) and find a different occupied Archer. You simply don't see comp players standing out to receive hits unless they have overwhelming overwatch position to lay their firepower on the enemy with range. It's push and disrupt when the brawling endgame reaches a certain conclusion.

I might not have the finest argument, I'm not trying to hold onto "Archers are comparable brawlers". They are simply not even used or considered at high level play for a reason. I'm not even saying Lighter mechs are better - because lots of work must be done, but when it comes to teamplay and teamwork - there are mechs that are disruptive enough that do enough to win (especially when you're forced to choose Light mechs in comp play) and not just be sideline watcher waiting to be rolled.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 December 2017 - 11:39 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 11:38 PM, said:

Sustained DPS matters if you are going to facehug/stare at your target for a long duration. The problem is that only if you are constantly shooting a target that doesn't play that game. You inevitably lose that game when there are more players involved. 1v1, sure, an Archer has a chance to beat a Linebacker. Given more players in the match, the group of Linebackers are more likely to have a field day over the limited group of Archers.

Sustained DPS is just what I stated so show that the Linebacker isn't really winning anything in the cooling department over the Archer, the more important notes were the higher alpha and lower spread meaning that in any trade the Linebacker's getting a lot of hurt put into its huge CT.

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 11:38 PM, said:

To generate the kind of proper pressure requires some level of coordination. Archers will not have enough speed to make the movements necessary to spread damage even if it gets the first shot. That and it is very disruptive and normally causes a brawl to start - which tends to favor the Linebackers more since it can kinda move out as needed (assuming it hadn't been legged) and find a different occupied Archer. You simply don't see comp players standing out to receive hits unless they have overwhelming overwatch position to lay their firepower on the enemy with range. It's push and disrupt when the brawling endgame reaches a certain conclusion.

You don't need movement to spread the damage from CSRM6s without artemis, those missiles do that by themselves. I'm making the assumption here that since the Archer has better damage per shot, better spread, and higher armor that it just easily is winning its trades against the linebackers each time if the linebacker attempts a hit and fade tactic that results in trades being made. You do gain the potential of countering the Archer in trades through adding in more linebackers so that one gets in a free trade because the archer is reloading after shooting the first. This basically gives the conga line tactic some merit but leads to the battle really just revolving around the positioning rather than the mechs themselves.

Deathlike, on 23 December 2017 - 11:38 PM, said:

I might not have the finest argument, I'm not trying to hold onto "Archers are comparable brawlers". They are simply not even used or considered at high level play for a reason. I'm not even saying Lighter mechs are better - because lots of work must be done, but when it comes to teamplay and teamwork - there are mechs that are disruptive enough that do enough to win (especially when you're forced to choose Light mechs in comp play) and not just be sideline watcher waiting to be rolled.

I'll often find things that are ahead of the meta a bit before they go mainstream. It takes time to come up with metas, even for the comp players, and there's time between matches that end up showing the comp player's findings, even then sometimes the comp meta builds don't translate into other modes all too well.

As for some examples, I was saying how the Dragon was great due to its potential the moment it got those armor quirks, loaded up a dropdeck full of them and a battlemaster and went to town for weeks, later on the Dragon-1c I was using gets nerfed and we have a Dragon in the WC on the winning team and people are considering its merits when they wouldn't even consider it when I started telling people about it

Another example was Bushwackers compared to the 12 ERSL Novas, I've changed some people's minds on that one and had people move to using Bushwackers when they were unable to outbrawl Novas with the weaker IS brawlers.

Another would be the Hellbringer, I've been saying that that mech is the best Clan trading option for awhile now, and now that people are starting to use it because of the HLL build working better on it than the EBJ and TBR they're also realizing the good mobility, decent hitboxes, and power of ECM of that chassis.

Now I'm suggesting that a 70 ton mech with side torsos as durable as that of a 90 ton mech's that people consider to be weak because "its side torsos are fragile" that automatically avoids ghost heat when it fires and carries around 6 ASRM6 while running at the average IS heavy speed of 70 kph with LFE might actually be worth noting as a decent brawling option. I don't know if anyone will ever pick it up in comp, especially with how rare a straight brawl is there, but it seems to be the best budget brawl deck in the game right now to bring 3 Archers followed by a Bushwacker if you just want to SRM rush the pants off of some poor team.

I'm often questioning the meta as to why certain things are as good as they are and refining it to optimal levels on my own, I hold little weight on things that are or are not considered by the majority to be meta or not, the meta is never decided by majority thought, but by hard statistics.

[r4zen]

This thread is wild. Trololo to silly BLK-7 vs HBR argument to something interesting....

Y'all keep being you. Merry Christmas.

[C E Dwyer]

anonymous223, on 22 December 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

I have

annihilator with 80 alpha, std engine, 160 front armor that alphastrikes 9 times in a row
while the poor direwolf has only 120, shoots only twice in a row and has bad hitboxes.

banshee with 5 erll , range, cooldown boosts and 40 standard heat sinks so i can shoot all day non stop and high mounts, while clan erll atm are super ultra nerfed.

BLR 1g with 500 meters on ermeds vs 475 on clans

Victors and Orion VA with ac20+3 or 4 srm6 that can brawl like an 85 ton clan Scorch

grasshoppers, that can laservomit with 20 dhs and 10% heat on top of that and have an accell decell rate of 26-29 versus the 16-19 of the timberscrap

bounty hunter with 1 gauss 6 ermed and 1 ll that has ermeds with more range than clan ones


ilya muromet: 2gauss+2erll with an assault level armor and amazing quirks of all kind, vs the night gyr that has way less armor and basically half dps


bushwaker 6 srm 4 fusion 300 with more armor than a timber


kintaro 5 streak 6, with streak 6 that have faster cooldown than clan streak 2

assassins that are just invincible

I have no idea on how the clans are supposed to face this with 25 tons less

Thank you for making pure comedy at Yule Tide. One thing this franchise lacked was a good laugh

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 23 December 2017 - 05:52 PM, said:

can't tell you the last time I seems a black night with a XL. And again, you're not thinking of when a hot loses that st with 60% of its firepower with it... 3 in the st and 1 in the arm now that alpha is more like high 30's.. and a black night can burn it off in 2 shots.

But hey, recent event stats show how OP clan mech's are right? I mean .8 w/l for clan in both scouting and invaision...

I haven't run an XL in a BLK-KNT since they were matching TBRs in their heyday, nor would I run that weapon loadout on a BLK-KNT or have that 5th ERML on the HBR, I'm just using the builds that were given as an example and running with them.

If the BLK-KNT wastes shots on the HBRs ST, then it dies slower, but hasn't got a chance at winning the fight, since your first shot doesn't even penetrate armour, so you're almost dead before you take that ST off.

Event stats? Sure, IS OP. Look at all the planets they took after Tharkad!

I'm still on my IS only month, after playing Clan only last month. So far, it's close. Clans gave me more Avg. MS, IS is giving me more Wins.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

Could go with an LFE instead of the XL and have 20 DHS while only going 3 KPH under 70, which is just fine to do since with an IS team most people are only moving 70 at best and there are many assaults sitting at 60kph or below. That'd help a lot for the BK, he'd win if the two just stood there staring eachother down, but that's not really how trading works anyway.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6056408571a9500

Not my builds, neither are something I would use. BLK-KNTs have mounts too low for my taste, they serve better as MPL boats, as you suggest. If I did my own build comparison, it would be vs a WHM. Better, clustered mounts and only 5 ton heavier, which is about the advantage each IS 'mech has over a Clan one in FP (265 vs 240?). Not that FP matters.

[Jackal Noble]

Archer has a couple of interesting builds to compete with the splatbacker. Not sure why you guys decided to get hungup on comparing these two but OK. First of all, Archer is a lot more agile and tough than you give credit for even when running a 300. Get it on a 340, and lordy that thing is all over the place. K so the linebacker has speed, say about ~20+ km/h... What the hell does that do when you are within brawling range sub 300 m and the Archer is just as agile on turn ability/acceleration. Nada.
Builds - why not mrm60/80 and some lasers. Mrm60 and 4-6 small lasers or 4 medium. Wowza. That's like 80 damage. Further that speed is nullified with that 550m+ firing arc.
Why not the heavier but and 90m shorter range but superior in every streaks?
Archer is flicking blast to play and is way better built than credit is given to it. It's definitely tough enough and has enough bite to face off a linebacker.
Mischief, I sent you a request. Totally look forward to doing a couple of drops against ya once I get back from the holidays. Cheers

Edited by JackalBeast, 24 December 2017 - 06:37 AM.

[MischiefSC]

LBK just overruns. You just splat and run past, then turn, again and again in two waves so you're always shooting backs.

Splatclops, even assassins are good vs passive teams. Mobility is about control of the fight and it's why I really don't worry about thing like the Splatclops or Archer. Faster Clan mechs let you overrun them and destroy them easily. Focus fire and having the ability to create backshots for teammates turn those fights into rolls.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

r4zen, on 24 December 2017 - 01:29 AM, said:

This thread is wild. Trololo to silly BLK-7 vs HBR argument to something interesting....

Y'all keep being you. Merry Christmas.

I just really love debating, rarely care what the subject itself is, the argument is just so fun to make. Hopefully Deathlike and I both make some good points that got people thinking and maybe people will try out a bit more of what we advocated for.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 24 December 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

I just really love debating, rarely care what the subject itself is, the argument is just so fun to make. Hopefully Deathlike and I both make some good points that got people thinking and maybe people will try out a bit more of what we advocated for.

Actual best IS brawlers -

Lbx40 WHR. You run into these in a close fight it's going to be painful. Brutal strong push mech, concentrated heat sustainable firepower.

Bushie mob - 12 Bushies is really, really close to 12 LBKs. A little slower but tanker and for less tonnage.

MRM60 IV4/Roughnecks/MAD- MRM60 is a very sustainable 14 DPS just on its own. Add a couple lasers and they're beastly.


2x Snub, AC20 Orion - a 40 pt finisher. A couple of these in with an MRM wave opening mechs up with 60-80 or alphas and you've got a serious brawl wave.

Maulers, Splatclops... meh. For the tonnage? One beefy assault wave is great but 2 or 3 of the above waves is a mich, much stronger option. Clans need to front load tonnage becaise they have to crush the first two waves to make up tonnage difference. IS can do 3 strong waves and then assassin's, which is just really hard to deal with.

[Commander A9]

Legs are tasty...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 24 December 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

Actual best IS brawlers -

Lbx40 WHR. You run into these in a close fight it's going to be painful. Brutal strong push mech, concentrated heat sustainable firepower.

Bushie mob - 12 Bushies is really, really close to 12 LBKs. A little slower but tanker and for less tonnage.

MRM60 IV4/Roughnecks/MAD- MRM60 is a very sustainable 14 DPS just on its own. Add a couple lasers and they're beastly.


2x Snub, AC20 Orion - a 40 pt finisher. A couple of these in with an MRM wave opening mechs up with 60-80 or alphas and you've got a serious brawl wave.

Maulers, Splatclops... meh. For the tonnage? One beefy assault wave is great but 2 or 3 of the above waves is a mich, much stronger option. Clans need to front load tonnage becaise they have to crush the first two waves to make up tonnage difference. IS can do 3 strong waves and then assassin's, which is just really hard to deal with.

My idea with the Archer wave was that it would be similar to the Bushie wave while using up a bit more of the tonnage in the drop deck. Since the Archer is even tankier and puts out more damage and you can bring 3 waves of them *and* then finish with a Bushie mob, it seems like a pretty decent deck.

Just finished a video about missile bay door damage and am going to post it in the topic about missile bay doors once it is uploaded, check it out, it might just make you want to run with them closed rather than just have the doors open all the time, if you do that.

[MischiefSC]

Have never had an issue with Archers. Easier to hit, bigger sides - part of what makes the WHR strong is it's hard to drop a whole splat on one location. That's easier on the archer, much easier. It's also easier to get on an Archers back. They're just not very tough, even with quirks. WHR/RHG are stronger for less tonnage.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 24 December 2017 - 10:32 AM, said:

Have never had an issue with Archers. Easier to hit, bigger sides - part of what makes the WHR strong is it's hard to drop a whole splat on one location. That's easier on the archer, much easier. It's also easier to get on an Archers back. They're just not very tough, even with quirks. WHR/RHG are stronger for less tonnage.

I don't find Warhammers much more than weak for their tonnage compared to other IS mechs with their low defensive quirks, but I won't argue over the Roughneck being one of the tankiest heavies out there.

Archer gives up a bit of tanking for a bit of firepower.

Just wondering, when you fight archers, do you remember them having their doors open or closed?

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 24 December 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

I don't find Warhammers much more than weak for their tonnage compared to other IS mechs with their low defensive quirks, but I won't argue over the Roughneck being one of the tankiest heavies out there.

Archer gives up a bit of tanking for a bit of firepower.

Just wondering, when you fight archers, do you remember them having their doors open or closed?

Both, makes little difference. I can st for certain being a Clan brawler who runs LBKs forever, WHR > Archer.

Wht will eat about 30-40 pts of my splat, ARC is eating 60.

[Lykaon]

Dakota1000, on 23 December 2017 - 07:01 PM, said:

For the most part I believe Clans are superior in a comp environment due to Comp focusing heavily on trading. Clan has the best traders in general but IS has great mechs for other roles such as overwatch, brawling, DPS, damage sponging, anything involving being a light mech or fast medium, and often times damage spreading. I find it kinda funny how the winning team ended up bringing a Dragon of all things, one IS mech that's normally considered to be terrible did have its use in the tournament on overwatch, though we all know its not winning any trades.



Could go with an LFE instead of the XL and have 20 DHS while only going 3 KPH under 70, which is just fine to do since with an IS team most people are only moving 70 at best and there are many assaults sitting at 60kph or below. That'd help a lot for the BK, he'd win if the two just stood there staring eachother down, but that's not really how trading works anyway.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6056408571a9500


Trying to win trades against a Clan mech as an IS one is an uphill battle though, decking your BK out in MPLs, using the ample cover found in 90% of maps, and taking the fight up to the Clan mech is an easy fight instead. Most Clanners aren't going to be bringing brawl decks in the first place since they're so used to trading in the first place, so you're going to be going up against a mech who hits you with a 78 damage alpha (if they use 6 ERML and 2 HLL as usual) but you can hit them twice for every alpha they do with 9 MPL each time. 108 damage every time they fire 78 and you out sustain them so they can't really put in that third strike without coolshots.




Basically all I'm saying here is Clans OP in some circumstances while IS OP in others. Clan's circumstances just happen to fit the poke meta much more than IS's.

Sure the Blackknight could go for the smaller LFE and be even slower still than it's clan counterpart meaning the Hellbringer has an even greater advantage in the poke and fade fight scenario and that largely mitigates the LFE benefits for the Blackknight.

Mobility is a huge advantage because the team that can be where it wants to be before opposition can prevent them from getting there has picked the place and terms of the ensuing battle. When you force the opposition to be reactionary to your actions you have very effectivley stolen the initiative now if you can maintain this posture you will be dictating terms the whole match.

And this is why "bringing the fight to the clans" is not a sure fire strategy for counter play against the the superior clan trades. Since it highly likely the clan comp team is faster they get to choose where and largely when to fight and the I.S. team is performing in a reactionary capacity.

Also,since the I.S. mechs make serious compromises to attain the clan mech speeds while their clan counterparts get that pretty much as a freebie due to clan XLs and lighter equipment and more compact construction options the I.S. mechs will not ever have a reliable lock down on taking the initiative from a clan opfor.

So the actual situation is this. Clan forces have a much stronger capacity to steal the initiative and dictate the flow of a battle meaning the clans possess an improved capacity to create a situation that favors their strengths. On top of that the clan mechs are not so completely vulnerable when outside of their wheelhouses as to be utterly dominated while the contrary is true for the I.S.

An I.S. mech is generally built as a specialist with absolutely no wiggle room for any secondary roles or functionality.

[r4zen]

Dakota1000, on 24 December 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

I just really love debating, rarely care what the subject itself is, the argument is just so fun to make. Hopefully Deathlike and I both make some good points that got people thinking and maybe people will try out a bit more of what we advocated for.

I'm definitely going to try a couple of trolly Archer builds now.

[Grus]

MischiefSC, on 23 December 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

I'm just curious if you're being intentionally dishonest, if you've never seen the FW map or if you're just really, really new.

We're you there for the Tharkad? KCom played like 20 drops, MS and BCMC were in IS and there were almost no active units in Clans. Even with Clans being literally just pugs and casual units it still won about 46% of its matches. IS hasn't won 46% of its matches in any event - or even in any week in about a year.

Go look at the war log. Please count the IS wins. The Tharkad event is literally the only time IS has won anything in FW, and thats only because population was so low that 2 merx units could swing it when almost nobody else played.

1. No. 2. Yes 3 hell no. That paragraph just makes me wonder how big your blinders are.

I look at the map and it means nothing. Clans have a higher population than IS or the drop weights wouldn't be swayed. Thus because of higher population we have a bigger pool of better players. Even you can't deny that a good player will make any mech work...

But IS mechs have a huge advantage right now in invasion due to map designs.