242 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Yep

IS are better than Clans at pretty much everything but mid range laser vomit.

Clan mechs are overengined glass cannon laser vomiters. thats literally the only thing they do well anymore.

I kindve wish clans got HAGs. Wouldve have helped break up the laser vomit a little.

Edited by Khobai, 26 December 2017 - 05:42 PM.

[Grus]

Khobai, on 26 December 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

Yep

IS are better than Clans at pretty much everything but mid range laser vomit.

Clan mechs are overengined glass cannon laser vomiters. thats literally the only thing they do well anymore.

and if clan is defending they don't have the advantage unless they can put that range to use. That means leaving a ton of the objectives open. As for IS this means you have to option of either killing gens and winning 12 tokens or getting in brawl range and getting kills. Clan mechs don't have the durability for a brawl.

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 26 December 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Mischief...
Name a Clan chassis, if you cant find an IS chassis at roughly same weight that can do the same job better after taking into consideration quirks you dont know your mechs.
Everyone says " oh look at the clan range etc, etc." but never mention the extensive quirks on most IS chassis.
If you cant find an IS chassis with the required quirks for your build youre not looking hard enough or being deliberately misleading.
Im sure there are maybe a very few Clan chassis that might be bit beter in niche circumstances but overall? no.

Are you kidding?

I'm just.... have you actually looked at the math? For any of them? How about FW map, or mechs played in comp, or leaderboards.... how about literally what every successful player in MWO has stated if you don't want to do your own research.

Dakota1000, on 26 December 2017 - 05:32 PM, said:

I think IS is better than Clans at most things, the exception being high alpha trading. I also am in the top 5% of the playerbase based on the leaderboard. How do you dismantle my argument now?

Not at actually winning matches but you do good damage and you play a lot of lights and mediums with few total matches played, so Jarls List really likes you.

Pick another role - brawling? Pick a tonnage. I'll give you 40 tons for the Assassin because hitboxes. I'll gleefully brawl your Bushie in a Huntsman. Been doing it in scouting for days - want to bet I can leg you before you get in SRM range? 70 damage, it's two alphas. Want to go WLF vs, well, whatever? I suck in lights so I'll defer to Yeonne. However the only reason comp play went to WLF was survival vs streaks; for actual direct performance outside of streaks they were in Clan mechs.

Any heavy? From 9mpl builds to splat builds Clans do it better. Pretending that 10 pts of armor quirks makes up for 20 pts of damage every trigger-pull is disingenuous. Onion IIC is a stupidly effective brawler vs anything the IS can bring. LBK as well, depending on the map and how you want to do it but a LBK will get up on you and past your torso mounted hardpoints and just splat you down.

Any assault? Brawl or range.

Again, why don't we test this? Where is this mythical IS team dominating FW or competitive play?

How about someone show everyone else what they're not getting?

[MischiefSC]

Grus, on 26 December 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

and if clan is defending they don't have the advantage unless they can put that range to use. That means leaving a ton of the objectives open. As for IS this means you have to option of either killing gens and winning 12 tokens or getting in brawl range and getting kills. Clan mechs don't have the durability for a brawl.

Huh. Really. I need to explain that we can't out brawl IS to my unit. This will be funny.

You're making the cardinal mistake that gets made all the time on the forums.

You not being able to do something doesn't mean it doesn't work and work incredibly well.

If you can't brawl effectively in Clan mechs vs IS, that's all you. 100% you. The most successful, most winning teams in FW absolutely can and do.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Grus, on 26 December 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

ha funny!

Yeah alpha trade clans got it. But catch a alpha trade clan mech cooling down and push him, dies quickly. Either by consistent fire or cooking himself.

Pretty much what I've found to be the requirement for if you're playing on IS. Just use some cover and ambush the Clanners. I've seen competent teams just camp out behind a rock to force the clanners to come if they *really* want to be scummy and give the clans no chance. Other teams will just move up through areas that aren't open firing lanes and pop up within 300m of the enemy mechs. The Clanners, who are always running high alpha laser builds anyway because its what they're best at, just crumple in a couple hits and you can do a couple hits before they even recharge their lasers, much less cool off from them. Its practically guaranteed victory if the IS team just actually moves up on the Clan team smartly.

Then at extreme range nothing touches the Battlemaster 1g with 6 ERLLs. Supernova comes close, but the hardpoint locations just lead to it exposing a whole lot more than the Battlemaster and generating *way* more heat if they go with 3x3 firing the CERLLs so that they can actually hit the enemy with all their lasers before he just peeks back. Also the IS ERPPCs have a huge velocity advantage over the Clan ones that only gets super huge with the quirks on the PPC carrying mechs.

Overall IS is a lot more solid than people give credit for. You're not going to do great trying to beat Clans at their own game, but you can beat them at any other, especially when talking about common enemies. The Clanners don't know your exact build or what you will do, so they will often just go high alpha anyway, they don't know to just counter pick to something else, and then when they do then you can go with high alpha builds and defeat their counter pick, so they're forced back to high alpha in which you just counter it in an infinite cycle.

People are always saying "oh its just 8 armor points per section" when in reality its usually more like 20-30 per section after skill tree is accounted for if you're using the right mechs, that's giving you a good alpha and a half of defense across your upper body that you can spread around if they're using their long duration high alpha laser builds. With how much heat they generate and how long their cooldowns are having them "waste" an alpha just getting to equal terms on armor is enough to tip the balance. The goal is to not get shot up a whole bunch of times for no reason before you are in range.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

Are you kidding?

I'm just.... have you actually looked at the math? For any of them? How about FW map, or mechs played in comp, or leaderboards.... how about literally what every successful player in MWO has stated if you don't want to do your own research.



Not at actually winning matches but you do good damage and you play a lot of lights and mediums with few total matches played, so Jarls List really likes you.

Pick another role - brawling? Pick a tonnage. I'll give you 40 tons for the Assassin because hitboxes. I'll gleefully brawl your Bushie in a Huntsman. Been doing it in scouting for days - want to bet I can leg you before you get in SRM range? 70 damage, it's two alphas. Want to go WLF vs, well, whatever? I suck in lights so I'll defer to Yeonne. However the only reason comp play went to WLF was survival vs streaks; for actual direct performance outside of streaks they were in Clan mechs.

Any heavy? From 9mpl builds to splat builds Clans do it better. Pretending that 10 pts of armor quirks makes up for 20 pts of damage every trigger-pull is disingenuous. Onion IIC is a stupidly effective brawler vs anything the IS can bring. LBK as well, depending on the map and how you want to do it but a LBK will get up on you and past your torso mounted hardpoints and just splat you down.

Any assault? Brawl or range.

Again, why don't we test this? Where is this mythical IS team dominating FW or competitive play?

How about someone show everyone else what they're not getting?

I did go out and 1v1 El Bandito over a Bushwacker vs Nova debate and won every match after fixing the problem of the ammo being in the legs (setup for quickplay rather than scouting). I just really don't feel that 1v1 fights really translate well to actual team fights, much like how 4v4 is much different than 8v8 and 8v8 is much different from 12v12. Ontop of that player skill matters a whole lot more than mech and build in a 1v1, I can go out and beat a friend using a King Crab while I'm in a Bushwacker, but there's really not much reason that I should based on my mech's stats compared to his.

I thought the forum consensus was that 1v1s sat with single screenshots of you doing super high damage in how much they actually mean to anything. I could go out and 1v1 90% of this game's player base in an IS mech or a Clan mech and beat their mech, but it doesn't mean anything to the state of balance.

I personally enjoy 1v1s myself, but using them to determine the state of balance of mechs is loony. Its similar to the reason that I state a lot of things based off of the paper stats and general hitbox knowledge of a mech rather than just who is winning in FW at the moment since the faction's win rates are determined 90% by what side the teams are on and about 10% by which faction allows people to customize their mechs worse.


Side note though, its kinda a sad note on lights and mediums when my 11 and 12% play rate in them is considered to be "a lot". Here I was thinking to focus on my Wolfhound a bit more and bring my stats up to an even 25% for each to better balance my playstyles.

Edited by Dakota1000, 26 December 2017 - 05:58 PM.

[Grus]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

Are you kidding?

I'm just.... have you actually looked at the math? For any of them? How about FW map, or mechs played in comp, or leaderboards.... how about literally what every successful player in MWO has stated if you don't want to do your own research.



Not at actually winning matches but you do good damage and you play a lot of lights and mediums with few total matches played, so Jarls List really likes you.

Pick another role - brawling? Pick a tonnage. I'll give you 40 tons for the Assassin because hitboxes. I'll gleefully brawl your Bushie in a Huntsman. Been doing it in scouting for days - want to bet I can leg you before you get in SRM range? 70 damage, it's two alphas. Want to go WLF vs, well, whatever? I suck in lights so I'll defer to Yeonne. However the only reason comp play went to WLF was survival vs streaks; for actual direct performance outside of streaks they were in Clan mechs.

Any heavy? From 9mpl builds to splat builds Clans do it better. Pretending that 10 pts of armor quirks makes up for 20 pts of damage every trigger-pull is disingenuous. Onion IIC is a stupidly effective brawler vs anything the IS can bring. LBK as well, depending on the map and how you want to do it but a LBK will get up on you and past your torso mounted hardpoints and just splat you down.

Any assault? Brawl or range.

Again, why don't we test this? Where is this mythical IS team dominating FW or competitive play?

How about someone show everyone else what they're not getting?

god I wish i had a computer that could handle recording gameplay... used to but not so much anymore. I'm lucky if Im at a consistent 30fps.

[N0MAD]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 05:41 PM, said:

Are you kidding?



Any heavy? From 9mpl builds to splat builds Clans do it better. Pretending that 10 pts of armor quirks makes up for 20 pts of damage every trigger-pull is disingenuous.

THere you go again, quoting a 10 point armor quirk vs 20 point damage (convenient to your argument), on what mechs, and is that the only quirk your supposed IS mech has, how about the range, cooldown, -heat, mobility quirks etc your failing to mention again? as i said convenient to your argument but not accurate.
im out of this debate, to many people with closed minds and their own agendas.
Leave you with this, a bad tradesman blames the tools.
PS.. for Dakota..
One day if PGI decides to split solo and group Q stats (they wont) then maybe then one could actually see who the good players are rather than seeing those carried by playing in groups vs pugs.

Edited by N0MAD, 26 December 2017 - 06:12 PM.

[Grus]

Dakota1000, on 26 December 2017 - 05:56 PM, said:

I did go out and 1v1 El Bandito over a Bushwacker vs Nova debate and won every match after fixing the problem of the ammo being in the legs (setup for quickplay rather than scouting). I just really don't feel that 1v1 fights really translate well to actual team fights, much like how 4v4 is much different than 8v8 and 8v8 is much different from 12v12. Ontop of that player skill matters a whole lot more than mech and build in a 1v1, I can go out and beat a friend using a King Crab while I'm in a Bushwacker, but there's really not much reason that I should based on my mech's stats compared to his.

I thought the forum consensus was that 1v1s sat with single screenshots of you doing super high damage in how much they actually mean to anything. I could go out and 1v1 90% of this game's player base in an IS mech or a Clan mech and beat their mech, but it doesn't mean anything to the state of balance.

I personally enjoy 1v1s myself, but using them to determine the state of balance of mechs is loony. Its similar to the reason that I state a lot of things based off of the paper stats and general hitbox knowledge of a mech rather than just who is winning in FW at the moment since the faction's win rates are determined 90% by what side the teams are on and about 10% by which faction allows people to customize their mechs worse.


Side note though, its kinda a sad note on lights and mediums when my 11 and 12% play rate in them is considered to be "a lot". Here I was thinking to focus on my Wolfhound a bit more and bring my stats up to an even 25% for each to better balance my playstyles.

now If you're going for body shot to body shot yeah bushie, but in scouting nova legging is pretty nasty. Nova loses a ST though and it's over.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Grus, on 26 December 2017 - 06:01 PM, said:

now If you're going for body shot to body shot yeah bushie, but in scouting nova legging is pretty nasty. Nova loses a ST though and it's over.

In the 1v1 he solely attempted to leg me. The Bushwacker easily was capable of ripping the weak legs off the Nova or taking its time by ripping off those huge side torsos, or just deciding to be sloppy and go for CT. Nova has no chance.

Note that El Bandito is top 99% of players compared to me being top 95%. So, he's a very good pilot.

Edited by Dakota1000, 26 December 2017 - 06:06 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 26 December 2017 - 05:46 PM, said:

Pretty much what I've found to be the requirement for if you're playing on IS. Just use some cover and ambush the Clanners. I've seen competent teams just camp out behind a rock to force the clanners to come if they *really* want to be scummy and give the clans no chance. Other teams will just move up through areas that aren't open firing lanes and pop up within 300m of the enemy mechs. The Clanners, who are always running high alpha laser builds anyway because its what they're best at, just crumple in a couple hits and you can do a couple hits before they even recharge their lasers, much less cool off from them. Its practically guaranteed victory if the IS team just actually moves up on the Clan team smartly.

Then at extreme range nothing touches the Battlemaster 1g with 6 ERLLs. Supernova comes close, but the hardpoint locations just lead to it exposing a whole lot more than the Battlemaster and generating *way* more heat if they go with 3x3 firing the CERLLs so that they can actually hit the enemy with all their lasers before he just peeks back. Also the IS ERPPCs have a huge velocity advantage over the Clan ones that only gets super huge with the quirks on the PPC carrying mechs.

Overall IS is a lot more solid than people give credit for. You're not going to do great trying to beat Clans at their own game, but you can beat them at any other, especially when talking about common enemies. The Clanners don't know your exact build or what you will do, so they will often just go high alpha anyway, they don't know to just counter pick to something else, and then when they do then you can go with high alpha builds and defeat their counter pick, so they're forced back to high alpha in which you just counter it in an infinite cycle.

People are always saying "oh its just 8 armor points per section" when in reality its usually more like 20-30 per section after skill tree is accounted for if you're using the right mechs, that's giving you a good alpha and a half of defense across your upper body that you can spread around if they're using their long duration high alpha laser builds. With how much heat they generate and how long their cooldowns are having them "waste" an alpha just getting to equal terms on armor is enough to tip the balance. The goal is to not get shot up a whole bunch of times for no reason before you are in range.

Skill tree works for everyone. It's a percentage base. So your 8 pts turns into 10 with full tree. Not 20 or 30.

So if the IS and Clan mech both took the same nodes, your 8 pts of armor turns into 10 pts of armor, at best.

Bad pilots struggle with range trading vs BLR because they don't understand how trading works. the SNV with 6 CERMLs wins because by cooling faster he's in position first, meaning his burn starts first, his 3x3 starts first. If pushed, because he cools better, he's more dangerous up close as well.

The BLR only wins the range trade against players who let you control range and aggression. If they're not terrible they're pushing up, where your BLR falls apart and the SNV is still strong.

I don't play high heat trade builds. I play sustained heat and big alpha, which Clans also do better than IS at any range. I would say that the unit I play with is literally the most successful FW unit doing just that. I've been begging to go IS, just because I miss playing IS mechs and I've been playing Clans for ages but there's no question that doing so puts us at a disadvantage but not something we can't handle and it's worth it for the change.

N0MAD, on 26 December 2017 - 06:00 PM, said:

THere you go again, quoting a 10 point armor quirk vs 20 point damage (convenient to your argument), on what mechs, and is that the only quirk your supposed IS mech has, how about the range, cooldown, -heat, mobility quirks etc your failing to mention again? as i said convenient to your argument but not accurate.
im out of this debate, to many people with closed minds and their own agendas.
Leave you with this, a bad tradesman blames the tools.

Most IS mechs don't have a structure quirk where they need it, take leg armor on the IS Marauder as an example.

I agree a bad tradesman blames the tools - which is what people are doing saying IS is equal to Clans or even IS is OP. Clans are stronger, so someone who isn't absolutely dominating in Clans is just really bad at the game.

I say that from a position of absolutely dominating in Clans.

Dakota1000, on 26 December 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

In the 1v1 he solely attempted to leg me. The Bushwacker easily was capable of ripping the weak legs off the Nova or taking its time by ripping off those huge side torsos, or just deciding to be sloppy and go for CT. Nova has no chance.

Note that El Bandito is top 99% of players compared to me being top 95%. So, he's a very good pilot.

Maybe with CERMLs and MGs the Nova could kite the Bushie for a leg but it would be iffy.

Huntsman? Much, much better proposition either with SRMs+lasers or lasers alone, or even just with streaks and playing the range. 419m and JJs to stay out of reach makes scouting pretty easy.

Bushie is a strong medium. Lot of respect for Bushies, especially in groups for brawling and it's 70 pts to take a leg, which is very helpful. Just doesn't have a lot of tonnage to play with unless you go XL and it lacks speed and mobility without that, so you play them for a bit of range. You can also use the big missile nodules to pick a ST, making them poor to shield a side.

Why don't you go get a group together and play FW and dominate as IS.

[N0MAD]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

Why don't you go get a group together and play FW and dominate as IS.

Thats exactly what the better Merc groups do when they go IS they dominate, same as when they go clan, it seems its the groups not their faction alliance.
I am out this time, but Mischief the day you want to come onto our TS and compare chassis for chassis im willing to put in the time and compare actual mechs.

[Yosharian]

xX PUG Xx, on 22 December 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

Aaaah-hahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ..... *cough* *breath* ahhahahahahahahahaahhahahaha Please stop! I can't brea..... *cough* hahahahahahahaha.... *slump* (sound of PUG sliding out his chair to the floor)

Sorry, yeah but no.

If anyone builds their 'Mech properly and uses it in the correct way way for that build, then they hold an advantage over those that don't. Just today I saw a Clan something or another with 2x Heavy Medium laser and 2x C-LRM5 while they were attacking Grim Portico. My first thought was "why the hell did they bring that to an "attack" on this map", the second was "Enjoy eating my SRM's from 200 metres.... over and over".

Apart from poor build choices I feel overall firepower/performance is in favour of Clan but only if they use it correctly. IS have an advantage in Heat and overall armour but require the IS pilots to close the distance force that Heat issue upon the Clan pilots. This tends to be where most IS pilots fall on their face, looking to trade at 500m and wondering why they are getting shredded.

Meh, what do I know anyway?

Yeah but gap closing is more difficult in QP because it can be tough to get your team to push with you

[Grus]

Dakota1000, on 26 December 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

In the 1v1 he solely attempted to leg me. The Bushwacker easily was capable of ripping the weak legs off the Nova or taking its time by ripping off those huge side torsos, or just deciding to be sloppy and go for CT. Nova has no chance.

Note that El Bandito is top 99% of players compared to me being top 95%. So, he's a very good pilot.

I've tried a few builds of nova and just fell in a groove with the 12spl. Was that what he was useing?

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 26 December 2017 - 06:22 PM, said:

Thats exactly what the better Merc groups do when they go IS they dominate, same as when they go clan, it seems its the groups not their faction alliance.
I am out this time, but Mischief the day you want to come onto our TS and compare chassis for chassis im willing to put in the time and compare actual mechs.

Okay. Happily.

Given that I'm in KCom and we drop alongside people from EVIL, BCMC and EK and other top ranked units I know exactly why people switch sides - big units dominate in either side but when we play each other, Clans have an edge. However running Clans all the time just gets boring - it's the same thing again and again and again.

That's why most tend to stay in Clans. Because playing against everyone else is very same-y. However when we play each other the tech advantage is significant, more so than the tonnage advantage. There was a bit where Assassin and Bushie rushes were a real issue but solutions to that were found. The BLR laservomit was an issue only for people who didn't push. You push the BLRs and they fall apart.

ISMO is the only real dedicated IS unit that consistently gives us an issue (and is playing anymore) and they do it by brawling and with solid coordination. Most of them would agree that Clans are stronger but they play IS for their own reasons, which is cool.

However, again - units are in Clans because Clans are stronger. Full stop. Not because 'TEH LOREZ' or anything like that. It's because winning is more fun than losing and Clans win more than IS, because they're better - even with the tonnage disparity.

I'm strongly in favor of buffs back to what IS was like right before the IS nerfs that came with the KDK release. That was the best balanced IS and Clans have been. Both had strong areas and weak areas and you could struggle to say one had a clear advantage overall. The nerfs that followed and the strength of heavy lasers broke that.

[Jackal Noble]

YueFei, on 26 December 2017 - 05:27 PM, said:

I have a feeling MischiefSC is going to challenge folks to actually test their assertions once more, and people are gonna duck out yet again.

It's like those delusional people who think their Ki-technique or Dim Mak death touch BS would actually work and put down an opponent. And then when challenged on it, they either say it's too deadly to be used "For Real" ™, or they do show up to fight and get rekt.

Look, there's nothing wrong with being a potato. I'm a potato. I enjoy the game anyway. The problem is when people don't realize that they are potatoes.

There no ducking out. When I get back I can't wait to do some drops against the madman himself.

[LT. HARDCASE]

N0MAD, on 26 December 2017 - 04:51 PM, said:

Mischief...
Name a Clan chassis, if you cant find an IS chassis at roughly same weight that can do the same job better after taking into consideration quirks you dont know your mechs.
Everyone says " oh look at the clan range etc, etc." but never mention the extensive quirks on most IS chassis.
If you cant find an IS chassis with the required quirks for your build youre not looking hard enough or being deliberately misleading.
Im sure there are maybe a very few Clan chassis that might be bit beter in niche circumstances but overall? no.

If it's that cut and dry, I mean if there's an IS mech that beats out every Clan mech, surely you easily could do the work for us?

Start with the heavy bracket, if you don't mind.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 06:13 PM, said:

Skill tree works for everyone. It's a percentage base. So your 8 pts turns into 10 with full tree. Not 20 or 30.

So if the IS and Clan mech both took the same nodes, your 8 pts of armor turns into 10 pts of armor, at best.

Bad pilots struggle with range trading vs BLR because they don't understand how trading works. the SNV with 6 CERMLs wins because by cooling faster he's in position first, meaning his burn starts first, his 3x3 starts first. If pushed, because he cools better, he's more dangerous up close as well.

The BLR only wins the range trade against players who let you control range and aggression. If they're not terrible they're pushing up, where your BLR falls apart and the SNV is still strong.

I don't play high heat trade builds. I play sustained heat and big alpha, which Clans also do better than IS at any range. I would say that the unit I play with is literally the most successful FW unit doing just that. I've been begging to go IS, just because I miss playing IS mechs and I've been playing Clans for ages but there's no question that doing so puts us at a disadvantage but not something we can't handle and it's worth it for the change.



Most IS mechs don't have a structure quirk where they need it, take leg armor on the IS Marauder as an example.

I agree a bad tradesman blames the tools - which is what people are doing saying IS is equal to Clans or even IS is OP. Clans are stronger, so someone who isn't absolutely dominating in Clans is just really bad at the game.

I say that from a position of absolutely dominating in Clans.



Maybe with CERMLs and MGs the Nova could kite the Bushie for a leg but it would be iffy.

Huntsman? Much, much better proposition either with SRMs+lasers or lasers alone, or even just with streaks and playing the range. 419m and JJs to stay out of reach makes scouting pretty easy.

Bushie is a strong medium. Lot of respect for Bushies, especially in groups for brawling and it's 70 pts to take a leg, which is very helpful. Just doesn't have a lot of tonnage to play with unless you go XL and it lacks speed and mobility without that, so you play them for a bit of range. You can also use the big missile nodules to pick a ST, making them poor to shield a side.

Why don't you go get a group together and play FW and dominate as IS.

I do group up and play as IS, my unit mates hate it when I go Clans to mix things up a bit since they vastly prefer the IS mechs in scouting, Wolfhounds, Crabs, Bushwackers, those Crabs just spread incoming SRM damage extremely well if the legs don't get knocked out first. The Wolfhounds counter those machine gun lights extremely easily, and then there's the Bushwacker, my personal favorite that I use to lead my teams since I'm the tankiest, even if it gets me killed tanking damage from 4 mechs at once long enough to kill one while my team ravages the others.

The reason I'm not on IS in FW at the moment is because my unit's become more and more inactive recently, especially with one of my buddies CPU's dying, and people getting new games for the holidays. I'd enjoy having the gang back together more often, too many IS units don't fall into that nice spot where they bring actual good builds instead of lore or weird RAC stuff while not being super competitive teams that are always online training or something that I don't have the freetime for. Whenever we were all on at once it was just win after win, nothing could really stand up to so much armor coming at them at once.

Here's my build for Bushwacker. I feel I've posted it a million times when people try to tell me that you have to bring an XL to pack a good loadout. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dca9f2ecd5372e6

As you can see, it has LFE280, moves a little faster than a Huntsman, has 4 ASRM6 then I just prefer RL40 in the deadside so its disposable. You've also been underestimating the durability of those IS mechs. My Bushwacker's legs have 105 total health each with maxed out durability tree, much more than 70.

The Huntsman and Nova can't really kite the Bushwacker while being slightly slower, best bet is trying to get in some damage with ERMLs before I get into range, but you'll have to be very good at kiting to keep at range long enough to give you chance when the Bushwacker finally closes in.

Streaks I'm not worried about at all, 419m range on you and a bit over 300m for my ASRM6, that's only about 100m of space you have to kite in while in a slower mech on the defensive. Streaks will be wildly ineffective against the sheer health pool of the Bushwacker.

Really the only thing that worries me in the Bushwacker would be really high alpha builds that are piloted very well. With those I actually do need to try a bit harder and spread damage between the legs or use hills to properly shield my legs while attempting to get into range. Once I'm in range though the likely Hunchback IIC-A can be killed in under a second with the RL40 barrage followed by 4 ASRM6 half a second later. Its just a bit sketchy before that. Though for bigger and more open maps where that's effective the Assassin would have been a better pick anyway.

I honestly wouldn't mind doing a lot of 1v1 matches using the Bushwacker against various strategies that a Clan 50 tonner may employ. We could use it to refine our strats against great competition.

---

As for the 8 points to 10 points thing. Its a percentage increase, so I often look for mechs that have higher armor values than just 8, except for the Bushwacker mostly, though I've been eyeing the Kintaro after my tests with missile bay doors and looking at its defensive quirks. Take the Dragon for example, 16 armor on each torso as a bonus along with other quirks. If I'm getting the 18% armor bonus of a 60 tonner then I get nearly 19 points of armor per torso section for that mech. So in the end I have 19 more armor per torso section (not to mention legs and arms) than a Clan mech of equal weight on a mech that also happens to be exceptional at deadsiding.

Another example would be the Roughneck with its 10 armor and 20 structure bonus for the CT, there's an 17% increase in armor for 65 tonners and a massive 32% increase in structure, this means that large structure quirks are actually somewhat viable compared to armor quirks, especially in places such as the CT that are void of weapons. So I get a total of 38.1 durability on my CT compared to something like a Hellbringer. Hellbringer's at 152 health on the CT after skill tree while the Roughneck has a bit over 190. This means the Roughneck is a massive 25% tankier than a Hellbringer. This means that the Hellbringer will require an extra alpha strike with its super high damage build to kill the Roughneck. This doesn't seem like much, but when the Hellbringer is critically overheating after the first 2 alphas in a row and has to recharge for ~7 seconds then cool down a bit so it can get off the third alpha strike to win, all the while the Roughneck is throwing some serious DPS at it for those 7 seconds and the time before that it starts looking bad for the Hellbringer. Trading builds work due to super high burst DPS through limiting exposure through killing the enemy quickly, but if they can't do that then their effective DPS plummets as time goes up while their damage per second gets closer to their sustained DPS. So best bet is that the Hellbringer kills that thing in 3 alphas if he has great accuracy and the Roughneck is a spud who can't twist a bit of damage to those shield arms or side torsos. If it can do that spreading and cause the Hellbringer to require a 4th alpha the Hellbringer's just going to die of overheat if its not already beat to death.

TLDR: I just look at armor quirks in terms of how many more alphas they will let me survive, small time quirks like 8 points to CT and the other quirks on those overrated Marauders I just find nearly worthless when we have behemoths in that class such as the Roughneck, Dragon, and Grasshopper. In this world of super high alphas and high heat builds, forcing someone to pop both their coolshots and you're still standing if you twist a little is a powerful trade.

Grus, on 26 December 2017 - 06:35 PM, said:

I've tried a few builds of nova and just fell in a groove with the 12spl. Was that what he was useing?

12 ERSL with 4 machine guns if I remember correctly, maybe with or without the machine guns. His initial plan was to be able to get some free damage in on me using the range past effective on the ERSLs, though there's just not enough damage there out past 300m on those things to really put a dent on my mech so its just wasted heat.

[MischiefSC]

Dakota1000, on 26 December 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

I do group up and play as IS, my unit mates hate it when I go Clans to mix things up a bit since they vastly prefer the IS mechs in scouting, Wolfhounds, Crabs, Bushwackers, those Crabs just spread incoming SRM damage extremely well if the legs don't get knocked out first. The Wolfhounds counter those machine gun lights extremely easily, and then there's the Bushwacker, my personal favorite that I use to lead my teams since I'm the tankiest, even if it gets me killed tanking damage from 4 mechs at once long enough to kill one while my team ravages the others.

The reason I'm not on IS in FW at the moment is because my unit's become more and more inactive recently, especially with one of my buddies CPU's dying, and people getting new games for the holidays. I'd enjoy having the gang back together more often, too many IS units don't fall into that nice spot where they bring actual good builds instead of lore or weird RAC stuff while not being super competitive teams that are always online training or something that I don't have the freetime for. Whenever we were all on at once it was just win after win, nothing could really stand up to so much armor coming at them at once.

Here's my build for Bushwacker. I feel I've posted it a million times when people try to tell me that you have to bring an XL to pack a good loadout. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...dca9f2ecd5372e6

As you can see, it has LFE280, moves a little faster than a Huntsman, has 4 ASRM6 then I just prefer RL40 in the deadside so its disposable. You've also been underestimating the durability of those IS mechs. My Bushwacker's legs have 105 total health each with maxed out durability tree, much more than 70.

The Huntsman and Nova can't really kite the Bushwacker while being slightly slower, best bet is trying to get in some damage with ERMLs before I get into range, but you'll have to be very good at kiting to keep at range long enough to give you chance when the Bushwacker finally closes in.

Streaks I'm not worried about at all, 419m range on you and a bit over 300m for my ASRM6, that's only about 100m of space you have to kite in while in a slower mech on the defensive. Streaks will be wildly ineffective against the sheer health pool of the Bushwacker.

Really the only thing that worries me in the Bushwacker would be really high alpha builds that are piloted very well. With those I actually do need to try a bit harder and spread damage between the legs or use hills to properly shield my legs while attempting to get into range. Once I'm in range though the likely Hunchback IIC-A can be killed in under a second with the RL40 barrage followed by 4 ASRM6 half a second later. Its just a bit sketchy before that. Though for bigger and more open maps where that's effective the Assassin would have been a better pick anyway.

I honestly wouldn't mind doing a lot of 1v1 matches using the Bushwacker against various strategies that a Clan 50 tonner may employ. We could use it to refine our strats against great competition.

---

As for the 8 points to 10 points thing. Its a percentage increase, so I often look for mechs that have higher armor values than just 8, except for the Bushwacker mostly, though I've been eyeing the Kintaro after my tests with missile bay doors and looking at its defensive quirks. Take the Dragon for example, 16 armor on each torso as a bonus along with other quirks. If I'm getting the 18% armor bonus of a 60 tonner then I get nearly 19 points of armor per torso section for that mech. So in the end I have 19 more armor per torso section (not to mention legs and arms) than a Clan mech of equal weight on a mech that also happens to be exceptional at deadsiding.

Another example would be the Roughneck with its 10 armor and 20 structure bonus for the CT, there's an 17% increase in armor for 65 tonners and a massive 32% increase in structure, this means that large structure quirks are actually somewhat viable compared to armor quirks, especially in places such as the CT that are void of weapons. So I get a total of 38.1 durability on my CT compared to something like a Hellbringer. Hellbringer's at 152 health on the CT after skill tree while the Roughneck has a bit over 190. This means the Roughneck is a massive 25% tankier than a Hellbringer. This means that the Hellbringer will require an extra alpha strike with its super high damage build to kill the Roughneck. This doesn't seem like much, but when the Hellbringer is critically overheating after the first 2 alphas in a row and has to recharge for ~7 seconds then cool down a bit so it can get off the third alpha strike to win, all the while the Roughneck is throwing some serious DPS at it for those 7 seconds and the time before that it starts looking bad for the Hellbringer. Trading builds work due to super high burst DPS through limiting exposure through killing the enemy quickly, but if they can't do that then their effective DPS plummets as time goes up while their damage per second gets closer to their sustained DPS. So best bet is that the Hellbringer kills that thing in 3 alphas if he has great accuracy and the Roughneck is a spud who can't twist a bit of damage to those shield arms or side torsos. If it can do that spreading and cause the Hellbringer to require a 4th alpha the Hellbringer's just going to die of overheat if its not already beat to death.

TLDR: I just look at armor quirks in terms of how many more alphas they will let me survive, small time quirks like 8 points to CT and the other quirks on those overrated Marauders I just find nearly worthless when we have behemoths in that class such as the Roughneck, Dragon, and Grasshopper. In this world of super high alphas and high heat builds, forcing someone to pop both their coolshots and you're still standing if you twist a little is a powerful trade.



12 ERSL with 4 machine guns if I remember correctly, maybe with or without the machine guns. His initial plan was to be able to get some free damage in on me using the range past effective on the ERSLs, though there's just not enough damage there out past 300m on those things to really put a dent on my mech so its just wasted heat.

The Nova doesn't kite well enough. You can pogo stick around and avoid forward arc but it's tough in the Nova. It's just not what it does.

Here's the problem with your Bushie - we see that similar build a lot. The top torso missile hardpoint can be picked from any side or angle. So if it's missiles you pull LT, depending on the map, or you just pull legs.

My Huntsman does 4xSRM6a, 2MPL, 2HSML. It does more damage every trigger pull than your health buff on any single location.

Which is pretty typical for good Clan builds. I also have more precision, so I can pick that missile pod even when you try to deadside. Leaving you with a couple rocket launchers.

FW, or any team play really, isn't decided in 1v1s. It's all focus fire. So if a wave consists of you in Bushies and Dragons and us in all Huntsmen and HBKs (which, due to tonnage disparity, often happens) our higher alpha and precision absolutely will let us kill/cripple more of you faster which in turn eliminates your DPS advantage over 8-12 seconds.

It's why 3x LBKs and a Critlynx will destroy any deck on pretty much any map. We do it against long range teams on Polar sometimes. It's not even all splat-Backers. A few have lasers and MGs, so we can be sure to pick specific components on called targets when needed.

Here's the thing. This isn't a new discussion. It's been going for a year or more. Technically since Clans dropped originally. I'm no top tier comp player by any stretch - however I sit in TS and listen to them talk, I play in the matches with them. I see the calls, we debrief on matches on what went well and what didn't and why and we talk about builds. With not just my own unit but all the units; we all drop with each other pretty regularly. We play against other good teams and we see who wins and why. We come to each others TS and we say 'Yeah, we had a good position but we just couldn't do enough damage fast enough to keep you from closing to your optimal range and then it was a slaughter' and 'The Bushie is tanky but it's not fast enough to control the range' and such.

You guys act like quirks are this new thing. Like Clan vs IS isn't a discussion we all have all the time every day. Like we don't have unit forums with threads talking about builds and strats that we then practice in game and in private matches.

Again, it's why this forum gets called the Brown Sea. There's no real debate about Clans being stronger. The math around this has been posted so many times it's getting frustrating to repeat. I get that PGI knows that they've got this significant population segment that will riot if their Clan tech isn't OP, because they think that they're better than they actually are because they've been riding it since the beginning and when they are not hugely OP they lose and say that IS is stronger - without any of them, ever, at any point, actually playing in IS and proving their point. Because they can't, because we all already know IS isn't stronger.

So PGI tries to keep Clans as OP as they can without it being too bad since the IS players have a much, much higher tolerance for it. It's **** game design and it keeps the population in this slow death spiral and has since Clans came out and it makes expansion almost impossible because an unbalanced team based PvP FPS is never going to make a lot of people happy.

However arguments like this? They make having a balanced game hard because people mistake anecdotal experience for reality.

[Jackal Noble]

K cool.
So first we do bush vs huntsman, go ahead and settle that right quick.
Then just for shits and giggles we can go bush vs stormcrow.
Heavy, I'll take a Warhammer and a marauder maybe Orion.
Assault - Zeus or Anni
Light - commando, jav
Medium again for lulz - Assassin vs Arctic Wolf or Viper.

Edited by JackalBeast, 26 December 2017 - 08:20 PM.