160 replies to this topic

[TLBFestus]

MischiefSC, on 30 December 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

That's dishonest. Lie is a strong term, but incredibly dishonest.

So what I said about groups farming PUGs in CW is a lie?

Really? Is there some other reason the groups push them back into their drop zones and kill them as they are dropped from the ships? Mercy?

The innumerable posts about it over the past few years, the comments about "potatoes" in CW/FP, all lies?

OK.

[MischiefSC]

TLBFestus, on 30 December 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

So what I said about groups farming PUGs in CW is a lie?

Really? Is there some other reason the groups push them back into their drop zones and kill them as they are dropped from the ships? Mercy?

The innumerable posts about it over the past few years, the comments about "potatoes" in CW/FP, all lies?

OK.

Is there frustration at people who show up and derp? Of course. Do people talk trash all the time in QP, group queue, comp and FW? Of course.

To translate that to saying that units play in FW to beat bad players is a lie. They play to play FW with friends. They play for the same reason everyone else does. That's like saying I only play QP to beat bad players. It's dishonest.

Players are just players, unit or pug or whatever. Unit players pug all the time. Nobody is playing to "farm" anyone. People play to win, every match no matter who they play. Sometimes you play against good players and you lose or it's a close match, sometimes you play against bad players and it's a roll. Pug or premade (and we roll a lot of premade and we lose/have close games against non-premade teams/units) we play our best, same as everyone else.

You are dishonestly attempting to.attribute to everyone who plays as a team some palace or intent to beating bad teams, pug or premade. That's a lie.

[TWIAFU]

TLBFestus, on 30 December 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

So what I said about groups farming PUGs in CW is a lie?

Really? Is there some other reason the groups push them back into their drop zones and kill them as they are dropped from the ships? Mercy?

The innumerable posts about it over the past few years, the comments about "potatoes" in CW/FP, all lies?

OK.

Cowardly side will loose to the aggressive.

Or are you trying to say that PUGs are naturally cowards? They are unable by the nature of being a PUG unaggressive?

Only Groups push cowards to a DZ? Why cannot a PUG side push a cowardly side to a DZ?

[Mystere]

TLBFestus, on 30 December 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

So what I said about groups farming PUGs in CW is a lie?

The lie is in intentionally but slyly tainting all units as seal-clubbing monsters from hell.

TWIAFU, on 30 December 2017 - 01:17 PM, said:

Cowardly side will loose to the aggressive.

Or are you trying to say that PUGs are naturally cowards? They are unable by the nature of being a PUG unaggressive?

Only Groups push cowards to a DZ? Why cannot a PUG side push a cowardly side to a DZ?

The best experience a PUG group can have in CW is to give units a taste of their own medicine by spawn-camping them. It does not happen often. But when it does, there is much celebration. Doing it twice to the same people in one night is just icing.

Edited by Mystere, 30 December 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

TLBFestus, on 30 December 2017 - 01:00 PM, said:

So what I said about groups farming PUGs in CW is a lie?

Really? Is there some other reason the groups push them back into their drop zones and kill them as they are dropped from the ships? Mercy?

The innumerable posts about it over the past few years, the comments about "potatoes" in CW/FP, all lies?

OK.

The only reason someone would ever get spawn camped is because they are terrible at the game. If you can't even manage to keep the enemy waves from your spawnpoint then you're bad. If you have a problem with getting spawn camped PGI does not need to make dropships do super damage or prevent people from walking near your spawn, you actually need to GIT GUD. Fire up that voice chat and tell the other members of your team to form a firing line instead of being spread around the map alone or sitting back 1001m firing LRMs and the enemy team will have a hard time spawn camping you. If you drop into CW without any coordination, without any good builds, without any real attempt made to win, and you are just playing it like quick play then you deserve to be spawn camped right on out of the gamemode.

We need more EVIL's out there farming bads until the crop runs out.

[MischiefSC]

Remove pugging. I pugged for like 18 months. Most the people I ran into had a spine and understood it was pugging in group queue.

Those days are over.

If that's not where we are, require being in a premade to drop.

[Mystere]

MischiefSC, on 30 December 2017 - 04:18 PM, said:

Remove pugging. I pugged for like 18 months. Most the people I ran into had a spine and understood it was pugging in group queue.

Those days are over.

If that's not where we are, require being in a premade to drop.

I'd rather people grew a spine. <shrugs>

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 30 December 2017 - 04:45 PM, said:

I'd rather people grew a spine. &lt;shrugs&gt;

That's because you 12man only dropping pug hating farmers only play to ruin the game foe other people.

Edited by MischiefSC, 30 December 2017 - 04:54 PM.

[TLBFestus]

MischiefSC, on 30 December 2017 - 01:16 PM, said:

Is there frustration at people who show up and derp? Of course. Do people talk trash all the time in QP, group queue, comp and FW? Of course.

To translate that to saying that units play in FW to beat bad players is a lie. They play to play FW with friends. They play for the same reason everyone else does. That's like saying I only play QP to beat bad players. It's dishonest.

Players are just players, unit or pug or whatever. Unit players pug all the time. Nobody is playing to "farm" anyone. People play to win, every match no matter who they play. Sometimes you play against good players and you lose or it's a close match, sometimes you play against bad players and it's a roll. Pug or premade (and we roll a lot of premade and we lose/have close games against non-premade teams/units) we play our best, same as everyone else.

You are dishonestly attempting to.attribute to everyone who plays as a team some palace or intent to beating bad teams, pug or premade. That's a lie.

And you Sir are trying to attribute that everyone who plays CW as being Saints who don't want to stroke their Epeens by beating up on noobs and pugs just to make themselves feel good.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, so your high ground is no more holy than mine is.

[MischiefSC]

TLBFestus, on 30 December 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

And you Sir are trying to attribute that everyone who plays CW as being Saints who don't want to stroke their Epeens by beating up on noobs and pugs just to make themselves feel good.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, so your high ground is no more holy than mine is.

World of difference. I'm saying players are just players. You're trying to attribute malice of forethought and all manner of crap to people in units. That's absolutely untrue. Someone is just as likely (arguably more so) an antisocial a-hole pugging as being in a unit. Units absolutely didn't "farm pug out of FW" or any of that crap.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

TLBFestus, on 30 December 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

And you Sir are trying to attribute that everyone who plays CW as being Saints who don't want to stroke their Epeens by beating up on noobs and pugs just to make themselves feel good.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, so your high ground is no more holy than mine is.

And so what are the pugs who constantly say that they only want to fight other noobs and pugs just to make themselves feel good because they can't handle fighting groups?

You have no high ground, you're at the bottom of the hill.

[TLBFestus]

Well, I surrender to the wisdom of the Groups. Can't see the forest for the trees I suppose.

Enjoy the miasma that is FP, that you created.

[Brain Cancer]

MischiefSC, on 30 December 2017 - 12:37 PM, said:

Here's the thing. There's a lot of good players who are not dropping in units. We had a match go to time last night where a mostly pug group got ahead of us on kills while we had a tiny sliver more base damage against them.on Incursion. It was a close match we barely won. We had several go 48-30+ that were hard fought and well played.

And yet, you still won because a good unit excises it's weak points. I mean, do a PUG run on an alt account some time. Go ahead, feed it enough MC and such to have 4 good robots. No grabbing your friends for Team Sealclubbers, mind you.

See how far you get in the usual PUG queue without a community. Again, it doesn't take much. Two, three bad players and you're done- and prior to the changes, a game where you got all four of your robots shot down wasn't gonna get you 250 matchscore. It's nice that the PUG can make you feel like you worked for it- buuuuut they'll lose and almost inevitably keep losing, and that means a match against you was pretty much worthless to the PUG players. The 48-30's are just more entertaining.

Tell me? Who beats you even one in 4? It's not PUG groups? Heck, PUGs won't beat you one in twenty.

Quote

Those bad pugs getting crushed 48-0? They would lose to other pugs. The idea that the terribads only lose to the top tier groups is inherently false. All that will change for them is the names on the other side. If you kicked every member of the top 5 units out of FW to.orrow all you would do is move 72 of the best pugs up to that spot and everyone who isn't them would still lose just as much. Then any time the top performers in units drop in the pug queue they will, again, win just as much.

The trash will pretty much lose, regardless- but they won't lose 48-0. Maybe it'll be 48-24 or other levels of mediocrity, but the randomness of PUG play will mean there's going to be a few weak links in both teams, meaning people don't end up going 48-3 because they had to charge into the dropships to shoot at the suicider squad desperately trying to get to a game where the odds aren't zero. That is, they won't lose all hope playing against a group with the same unit tag that will roflstomp them, guaranteed and the game no longer feels like competition, it feels like being farmed for goodies.

Quote

It doesn't change the skill distribution. It doesn't make bad builds and bad choices work better. The bottom players are still the bottom. Nobody is being added uber tgem. They're not suddenly going to get better.

This is a common delusion of bottom performers. That if you remove the top performers they will "move up". That's not the case. They are still the bottom of the spectrum. If you removed the color blue from the color spectrum green doesn't suddenly become blue and red change to orange, etc. You just have a gap where blue is and it's now R O Y G I V. The only one who notices anything there is green, and when Blue does show up he's still a higher frequency than green.

No argument there. But let's look at this.

In QP, I have a decent game, 3-4 people are dead thanks to me. A few more people like me, and you have the makings of a 12-0 stomp. You're in FP and there's enough people at that level in your unit? You're going to just murder them.

The FP underhive, like the QP one however has hope if that the stars align and enough good to really good players don't materialize and punt their testicles into low planetary orbit, they may win. Carried, to be sure. They're still terribad. But if they see something like you, they know there will be no carry, no illusion that they contribute to a win. You will humiliate them as such a matchup deserves, because the trash must be taken out. This is the right attitude, and if they get to the point of mass suicide to avoid it, one should take that as a compliment rather than an insult. They know their place, and it's nowhere near you.

Quote

That's the biggest argument against it. It doesn't make the bads not bad. It doesn't mean they magically get better or go away.

Crossing the street is highly competitive compared to QP.

QP is generally having a random penalty/bonus that effectively means you get anything from being one end or the other on a 9v12 or so, if not worse due to the quality of potatoes growing in your team. If you can maintain better than 1.0 W/L in that, you've got skills. As you noted, the average is 0.8. And it's not even the best of the worst in T1. It's the most stubborn ones, given that it takes extraordinary fail to not get net positive PSR in the long run. Even those 0.8 types are slowly moving up, and they only had to hit T3 to end up in T1 matches, ready to ruin someone's team.

Quote

QP has a skill based matchmaker. There is just 5 tiers of bads, but they do in fact get progressively worse.

The skill portion was effectively destroyed a few months into the current system, as increasingly large numbers of skill-illiterate players were passed anyway into T3+ and the MM pushed more and more of them into the same games as players who at least were considered decent under the old one.

Honestly, even having higher match scores be required for T3/2/1 vs T5-4 would probably have made some separation occur.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Brain Cancer, on 31 December 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

The skill portion was effectively destroyed a few months into the current system, as increasingly large numbers of skill-illiterate players were passed anyway into T3+ and the MM pushed more and more of them into the same games as players who at least were considered decent under the old one.

Honestly, even having higher match scores be required for T3/2/1 vs T5-4 would probably have made some separation occur.

I think the issue with the matchmaker is the terrible imbalance in the ratio of very unskilled players to high skilled ones. To stay in places such as T5 you have to have a KDR around 0.2, so starting from T5 its not hard to move up to T4 because most people would have no problem winning heavily when surrounded by people who have mostly 0.2 KDRs. So T4 becomes pretty mixed up between people who have grinded awhile against T5 and moved up to like 0.3-0.4 KDR and people who blew past T5 in a match or two with a KDR of 5+. The same trend continutes all the way up to T1, you have the people who've grinded up the tiers through huge amounts of matches to get their stats just to the cut off point, then you have the people who belong in T0 because they can just farm in T1 queue with ease.

The high skill population is a small one, around 10% of the population has a KDR of over 2. 10% is 1 in 10 and the KDR only increases exponentially as the percentage gets smaller and smaller on up. In the end the comp players don't really have many places to go due to the rather lacking, but improving, state of competitive play in MWO and end up imbalancing any quickplay match that they drop into because there's an extremely low chance that anyone is even online at the moment that matches their level and the matchmaker barely even takes that into account since they're all in T1 anyway.

Edited by Dakota1000, 31 December 2017 - 02:09 PM.

[Shard Phoenix]

Lordy.

It's been a long time since I've played in CW/FP/FW/Whateveritis, but when I was playing it was almost always as a SoloPug.

Got "clubbed" quite a few times. First time I had a drop against KCom was, in my eyes, a hilarious yet enlightening experience. I was amused at how quickly people just gave up and started QQ'ing. At the same time I also payed attention to what they were doing to so efficiently end a game that was probably boring for them.

Being clubbed/farmed to 48 never tilted me. I just tried fighting to an honorabru death and moved on. Getting farmed isn't what made me stop playing FW. The mode itself being a neglected, one eyed stepchild is.

Edited by Shard Phoenix, 31 December 2017 - 01:51 PM.

[Lily from animove]

seal clubbing happens vs seals, people f no experienc,e it is no particular abuse of any mechanic, because every "seal" read (or ignored and deserved) to meet seal clubbers in FP.

random but skilled players don't get "clubbed". they may lose but it's not clubbing. seals get cluvbed becaus they are seals, so come bakc when you made a walrus out of youerself.

Shard Phoenix, on 31 December 2017 - 01:50 PM, said:

Lordy.

It's been a long time since I've played in CW/FP/FW/Whateveritis, but when I was playing it was almost always as a SoloPug.

Got "clubbed" quite a few times. First time I had a drop against KCom was, in my eyes, a hilarious yet enlightening experience. I was amused at how quickly people just gave up and started QQ'ing. At the same time I also payed attention to what they were doing to so efficiently end a game that was probably boring for them.

Being clubbed/farmed to 48 never tilted me. I just tried fighting to an honorabru death and moved on. Getting farmed isn't what made me stop playing FW. The mode itself being a neglected, one eyed stepchild is.

and if they would stop complaining and focuss on battle thre is enough possible vs kcom to not get clubbed and make quite lot moniez out of that match. But people give up and cry for a plaster before they even got a scratch.

Edited by Lily from animove, 02 January 2018 - 04:17 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Dakota1000, on 31 December 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

The high skill population is a small one, around 10% of the population has a KDR of over 2. 10% is 1 in 10 and the KDR only increases exponentially as the percentage gets smaller and smaller on up. In the end the comp players don't really have many places to go due to the rather lacking, but improving, state of competitive play in MWO and end up imbalancing any quickplay match that they drop into because there's an extremely low chance that anyone is even online at the moment that matches their level and the matchmaker barely even takes that into account since they're all in T1 anyway.

Given, I think it's a bit biased thanks to group play making it a lot easier to rack up wins/matchscore for some folks, much like it does in FP. Teamwork is OP, after all.

If we took solo play only as tier ranking, I have a feeling many of the leaderboards would normalize a bit.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Brain Cancer, on 31 December 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

Given, I think it's a bit biased thanks to group play making it a lot easier to rack up wins/matchscore for some folks, much like it does in FP. Teamwork is OP, after all.

If we took solo play only as tier ranking, I have a feeling many of the leaderboards would normalize a bit.

You'd be surprised. Many of the people in the top 5% and higher are extremely exceptional pilots even without a team. I'm personally in the top 5% and less than 10% of my matches are group play. Also FP, where most team play is done, doesn't count towards PSR at all.

[ANOM O MECH]

TLBFestus, on 30 December 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

And you Sir are trying to attribute that everyone who plays CW as being Saints who don't want to stroke their Epeens by beating up on noobs and pugs just to make themselves feel good.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, so your high ground is no more holy than mine is.

Let me ask you something. If you know or find out as a new player, that there is no match maker, whose choice is it to play CW?

I am from Canada. What you are suggesting is like someone telling me that they were going to learn how to play hockey before they learned how to skate. Since I am polite (being Canadian and all) I would say 'oh you mean floor hockey?' And they answer 'nope, gonna try out the ice hockey and those try hard pro wanna be's better not beat up me and make sure it is safe for me to play'.

I would walk away from such a fella, knowing he probably didn't have much longer on earth anyhow.

If you are new, not prepared, seasoned, doing realatively well in quick play, unwilling to learn, unwilling to play (or even at least stick together ffs) as a team, and don't have a good selection of mechs to choose from, you are not going to have fun in CW.

None of the above is the fault or problem or responsibility for the people currently in CW doing well. CW should not be changed to accomodate people unwilling to adapt and are insisting that things ought to be adapted to them.

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 31 December 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

And yet, you still won because a good unit excises it's weak points. I mean, do a PUG run on an alt account some time. Go ahead, feed it enough MC and such to have 4 good robots. No grabbing your friends for Team Sealclubbers, mind you.

See how far you get in the usual PUG queue without a community. Again, it doesn't take much. Two, three bad players and you're done- and prior to the changes, a game where you got all four of your robots shot down wasn't gonna get you 250 matchscore. It's nice that the PUG can make you feel like you worked for it- buuuuut they'll lose and almost inevitably keep losing, and that means a match against you was pretty much worthless to the PUG players. The 48-30's are just more entertaining.

Tell me? Who beats you even one in 4? It's not PUG groups? Heck, PUGs won't beat you one in twenty.



The trash will pretty much lose, regardless- but they won't lose 48-0. Maybe it'll be 48-24 or other levels of mediocrity, but the randomness of PUG play will mean there's going to be a few weak links in both teams, meaning people don't end up going 48-3 because they had to charge into the dropships to shoot at the suicider squad desperately trying to get to a game where the odds aren't zero. That is, they won't lose all hope playing against a group with the same unit tag that will roflstomp them, guaranteed and the game no longer feels like competition, it feels like being farmed for goodies.



No argument there. But let's look at this.

In QP, I have a decent game, 3-4 people are dead thanks to me. A few more people like me, and you have the makings of a 12-0 stomp. You're in FP and there's enough people at that level in your unit? You're going to just murder them.

The FP underhive, like the QP one however has hope if that the stars align and enough good to really good players don't materialize and punt their testicles into low planetary orbit, they may win. Carried, to be sure. They're still terribad. But if they see something like you, they know there will be no carry, no illusion that they contribute to a win. You will humiliate them as such a matchup deserves, because the trash must be taken out. This is the right attitude, and if they get to the point of mass suicide to avoid it, one should take that as a compliment rather than an insult. They know their place, and it's nowhere near you.

A couple notes -

There are plenty of units that lose to pugs consistently. The number of units who have a win/loss over 66% (a 2.0) is actually like a handful. They constitute a tiny fraction of total drops. KCom loses less than 1 in 10 matches to units or pugs as an example - we beat units as consistently as we beat pugs. That small handful of good units can say the same - they are as likely to beat 90% of units as often as they beat pugs. Those units though don't represent units and groups in FW. Most units and groups in FW don't win more than 66% of their matches.

The bad pugs will still lose 48- < 12. For the same reason 12-0 and 12-1 in QP are so common. Bads are going to lose just as much, just as often and for the exact same reason.

The dream that somehow trying to nerf teamwork (which is 100% what we're talking about. The people who don't want to play as a team in a 12 v 12 game lose to people who do play as a team and so want to make it harder for everyone who does play as a team to do so) is going to make bads less bad is a fallacy. The effort involved in rolling the people who get stomped 48-12 right now is so low that you can (and people do) accomplish it in QP.

I dropped a bunch of group queue matches today. Like 10. More than I normally ever do. Most were after the season 19 cutoff.

I lost more matches than I do in QP as a percentage.

Because QP is really, really easy to win in by just calling the drop or listening if someone else does. 2 out of 3 matches, give or take.

You're also insane if you think it wouldn't be full of the same players it is now. If there's only 1 drop forming and 12 people from MS and KCom are all getting in queue they're going to almost all end up in the same match. Just like they would if they got in TS and formed a premade. The match would play the same.

Put the FW content in QP. Solo queue in FW absolutely in no way, shape or form has any business getting LP and the higher payout. If you're going to play like QP you should get QP payouts.