160 replies to this topic

[riverslq]

Khobai, on 27 December 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

virtually every other multiplayer game separates premade groups from pugs for a reason.

even quickplay separates groups and pugs.

because it is abusive



its not just better teamwork. premades can filter out bad players too.

by only inviting known good players, premades gain a significant skill advantage over pugs.

the fact is, seal clubbing should not exist. FP should have separate buckets for pugs and premades.

if premades dont like the longer wait times and the fact they cant sealclub, too bad for them.

right, and pgi doesn't because the 12 man premades couldn't find anyone else to play against.

So now they have people to play against in FP, but even then, the population is crap, because pugs in general don't want to enter a match knowing they're going to get wiped.

Balance ftw, except for here.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

TLBFestus, on 29 December 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

Ya know, they might have been able to do something with FP even in it's current form IF PGI had had the testicular fortitude to set up a solo FP queue early on and made the groups play with just the groups.

Instead, the groups mercilessly drove people out of FP, then cried like little vitches when any consideration was given to taking their toys (PUGS) away.

What's with the victim complex that so many PUG supporters have? PUGs never got ran out of the mode, infact they're swarming the place. groups and units are the ones that got driven out. They got hit with HUGE cbill costs just for recruiting people and trying to expand, they practically never get listened to by PGI, all the potatoes think they're the boogeyman out to club them, and all they wanted was a place that they could fight in that isn't limited, since EVEN GROUP QUEUE LIMITS GROUPS.

Get outta here with that whole "units are evil" bs.

[riverslq]

Dakota1000, on 29 December 2017 - 09:17 PM, said:

What's with the victim complex that so many PUG supporters have? PUGs never got ran out of the mode, infact they're swarming the place. groups and units are the ones that got driven out. They got hit with HUGE cbill costs just for recruiting people and trying to expand, they practically never get listened to by PGI, all the potatoes think they're the boogeyman out to club them, and all they wanted was a place that they could fight in that isn't limited, since EVEN GROUP QUEUE LIMITS GROUPS.

Get outta here with that whole "units are evil" bs.

Thats funny, you think you're not a potato.

[Bombast]

riverslq, on 29 December 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Thats funny, you think you're not a potato.

I feel like you don't know what that term means.

[UnofficialOperator]

riverslq, on 29 December 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Thats funny, you think you're not a potato.

Thats really rich coming from 0.79 wlr and 0.67 kdr guy

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 29 December 2017 - 09:49 PM.

[Sjorpha]

riverslq, on 29 December 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

Thats funny, you think you're not a potato.

Because he isn't.

Pug vs premade is definitely a design problem though, and it's not as easy as splitting queues because it would very likely not work and it's a big risk to take, another major failure in developing a mode that is already hanging by a thread.

What I would like to try is for the teams to always be built around a group of at least 4 players. So the matchmaker first finds the largest group on each side and then builds the teams by adding smaller groups or pugs as needed. If either side lacks a group of at least 4 players it just waits for one to join before builing a team.

Edited by Sjorpha, 29 December 2017 - 11:41 PM.

[Mystere]

N0MAD, on 29 December 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

That comment would have some validity if the game mechanics matched up groups of equal skill/tech levels, but when the game allows new people without the experience or tech levels to the point you have people having to drop in trial mechs, then you would have to say that some one has done it to the, the system has done it to them, and you are quite alright playing a system like that?.
GG.

Here is the rub: no one is forcing completely unprepared players to drop into CW. Hell, it even has a warning essentially saying just as much.

So, yes, they did it to themselves.

Edited by Mystere, 29 December 2017 - 11:42 PM.

[MischiefSC]

N0MAD, on 29 December 2017 - 08:47 PM, said:

That comment would have some validity if the game mechanics matched up groups of equal skill/tech levels, but when the game allows new people without the experience or tech levels to the point you have people having to drop in trial mechs, then you would have to say that some one has done it to the, the system has done it to them, and you are quite alright playing a system like that?.
GG.

If this happened in QP you'd have an argument.

If this wasn't 99% of the time the same people, repeatedly, you'd have an argument.

However it's FW, which is pretty clearly labeled as 'like group queue with respawns', which is still not even close to comp queue but expectations higher than QP. It's also the same people, again and again and again. It's pretty rare to see trial mechs in FW.

TLBFestus, on 29 December 2017 - 08:55 PM, said:

Ya know, they might have been able to do something with FP even in it's current form IF PGI had had the testicular fortitude to set up a solo FP queue early on and made the groups play with just the groups.

Instead, the groups mercilessly drove people out of FP, then cried like little vitches when any consideration was given to taking their toys (PUGS) away.

That's dishonest. Lie is a strong term, but incredibly dishonest. Originally there was going to be no pugging in FW. We begged and PGI relented. We understood that it was pugging in a group queue and expectations were higher. The problem with split queues was/is taking planets - you don't get to take a planet from another faction by dodging the best people that faction has. Plus it eliminates any justification for Loyalty Point rewards - If you're going to play QP with respawns and a matchmaker you don't get a bunch of bonus CBill and MC for it. So at that point you don't have two queues in FW; you have FW and new maps/modes for QP. Which I've never been adverse to and have advocated for since FW came out.

However 'groups' didn't 'mercilessly drive people out of FW'. That's a lie. Either based out of total and completely ignorance of who played FW or just an utter and complete personal misconception about who everyone else playing MWO is or projection about what you'd do given the opportunity, it's impossible to say - because unlike you I'm not going to pretend I magically know what someone else is thinking, feeling or their intentions.

To be clear though the flat out bald faced lie of 'groups are just out to farm seals/club pugs' or whatever utter and total bull **** is being bandied about needs to get stomped down like the abjectly dishonest pile of **** that it is. Provide evidence of your magical mind-reading powers or apologize, or at least expect to get called a liar when you, you know. Blatantly lie.

Brain Cancer, on 29 December 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

Scouting, your odds of finding 4 competent players at once are far, far better than 12 of them.

And it only takes a few bad players to ruin an Invasion PUG. I mean, I've watched people on streams who apparently decided going in with rocket launchers was the winning tactic, or Direstar-equivalent selfdestruct specials. Or "bracket builds" that make baby RNGesus cry, because you can't roll enough natural 20s to make up for your opponent BTFOing them out while they ping away with their secret AC/2 weapon. The single AC/2. Too good for comp builds!

Except I play against units that bring bracket builds all the time and make terrible choices.

Bad players making bad choices have unit tags. Most of them. Yes, the absolute worst who literally can't get a unit to take them in are pugs. No question. However it is and has always been disingenuous to say that only pugs are bad players.

[justcallme A S H]

Mystere, on 29 December 2017 - 11:41 PM, said:

Here is the rub: no one is forcing completely unprepared players to drop into CW. Hell, it even has a warning essentially saying just as much.

So, yes, they did it to themselves.

Said warning screen just for reference. That every play has to click on...

Seems rather clear to me.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 December 2017 - 12:19 AM.

[MischiefSC]

UnofficialOperator, on 29 December 2017 - 09:49 PM, said:

Thats really rich coming from 0.79 wlr and 0.67 kdr guy

That's because the moment a person takes accountability for their own actions and in game performance they stop being the kind of person who thinks that anyone who plays in a group and uses teamwork does it to beat up on the poor crippled puggles who are literally completely unable to bring good mechs or do teamwork. You may as well say that they should fly to the moon. It's impossible. People don't improve, that's a cruel lie created by ubermensch to skill-shame the glorious, noble, honorable and ethically justified under-mechlab-skilled.

Not kidding, calling that BS out as BS every time I see it now. We've been putting up with it like enabling someone who guilt-trips everyone who asks them to stop taking a dump in the neighbors yard. The whole 'units are evil' 'units just club pugs' is a LIE. A literal, honest to goodness lie. It's not just a lie it's a dishonest attempt to manipulate people into feeling guilty or being shamed for playing as a group in a effing group game. Teamwork is not HAX. It's not trying to get an unfair advantage. It's the bare minimum expectation to have even a chance at success, because this game can only be played as a team of 12 or a team of 4. You literally can not play it otherwise.

Powdering up the twit slapping glove. Just overlooking people lying and slandering other players because of personal insecurities or whatever is just enabling toxic behavior. **** that.

[Lupis Volk]

riverslq, on 29 December 2017 - 09:09 PM, said:

Balance ftw, except for here.

PGI could make the most balanced game but it wouldn't save a freaking Muppet when up against someone with an inkling of skill and experience with their mech and the game.

PGI can balance the game but they can't balance player stupidity and it's unfair on them to be foisted into an untenable position in regard to that.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 30 December 2017 - 01:14 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Bombast, on 27 December 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

In FP, it generally takes the form of creating large, well coordinated groups knowing fully well that your opponent is not going to be doing the same.

Wait a second. You mean to tell us that Units are forming coordinated Groups in the only Queue for them?

Next you will tell us they are abusing the game by cheating and talking to each other?

[TWIAFU]

Brain Cancer, on 29 December 2017 - 02:06 PM, said:

The difference is units filter out the trash players, and PUGs cannot.

As we all know from QP, it doesn't take much trash in your team to result in an overwhelming defeat. Generally, if your opponent kills your first wave without losses, you're the target practice.

Events like the current one compound things, as the one reason the PUG is there vanishes when it becomes obvious they're going to be farmed all the way back to their spawn points. This results in PUGs kamikazing/ejecting out of the match, making it even more of a disaster for the rest. In extreme cases, the entire PUG may just simply eject repeatedly to stop what is a meaningless match for their players from lasting any longer than the minimum, at which point, the stompers have Dropship Pilot as their new opponent, and he's a pretty good shot.

So, knowing exactly how QP works, how in the nine hells will making solo only CW make that any better?

You've seen it, experienced it, and described issues well. So, explain how those issues with QP magically vanish in solo CW and not make them far worse with respawn?

All those awesome QP matches full of derp that ends with 12-4 with some ERLL raven off in the corner, you want to do that four times in a drop? Magically 48-12 loss is OK when your farming or being farmed by other 'tards, but not OK when it is skilled pilots.

Who will win in PUG v PUG drop when one PUG side talks to each other and other does not?

How will you again separate those players out to protect to solo anit-social from playing the solo and social? The anti-social will be farmed out by the social.

QP with respawn in CW will bring out and emphasize the worse in QP pilots and make solo CW a real sh*thole.

Edited by TWIAFU, 30 December 2017 - 04:38 AM.

[TWIAFU]

Khobai, on 29 December 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

unfortunately thats not how it works

because organized groups can filter out bad players by only inviting good players. you dont have that option with pugs, youre stuck with whoever you get: like spudicus and potatius maximus. no amount of "coaching" is going to make them good.

all your pugs could listen to you and youll still get sealclubbed because theyre not as good of players.

Fortunately, it is with the tools you solo CW players asked for to put you on even footing with your fabled 12man premade boogeyman.

Here;

Open Social > Create Group > Send out invites to good players on Friends List.

That is if solo only MWO accounts have a Friends List. Do they?

There you go, you are now filtering out your bad PUGS.

I can walk you though how to be able to talk to them if need be.



Funny you mention bad pugs being bad. When you are on that bad PUG team or fighting that bad PUG team of all solo's, what are you going to do? Farm them or be farmed? If PUG on PUG fight going to magically end 12-4 pugsstomps that are the norm in QP or just going to make it 48-12 stomps pug stomps in CW?

Or will you still be sitting at the edge of the map playing your range game peek a boo farming damage off PUGS?

[Brain Cancer]

TWIAFU, on 30 December 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:

So, knowing exactly how QP works, how in the nine hells will making solo only CW make that any better?

Because the only thing worse than solo QP queue is a solo+group queue. For the soloer, of course. Not that you won't see horrible mismatch fights, but the screwjobs won't be mitigatable because you picked a bunch of your practice buddies to play with.

Quote

You've seen it, experienced it, and described issues well. So, explain how those issues with QP magically vanish in solo CW and not make them far worse with respawn?

All those awesome QP matches full of derp that ends with 12-4 with some ERLL raven off in the corner, you want to do that four times in a drop? Magically 48-12 loss is OK when your farming or being farmed by other 'tards, but not OK when it is skilled pilots.

Who will win in PUG v PUG drop when one PUG side talks to each other and other does not?

How will you again separate those players out to protect to solo anit-social from playing the solo and social? The anti-social will be farmed out by the social.

QP with respawn in CW will bring out and emphasize the worse in QP pilots and make solo CW a real sh*thole.

I think CW in general should die in a fire, actually. My commentary isn't about fixing it, but how it's so good now at rubbing salt into wounds by PGI doing it's best-worst at luring people in with events like this.

FREE ROBOTS!*

*Horrible play mode for soloers required.**
**We'll mostly fix that just before the event ends***
***Please come back again when we lure you into the meat grinder!

[Brain Cancer]

MischiefSC, on 30 December 2017 - 12:13 AM, said:

Except I play against units that bring bracket builds all the time and make terrible choices.

Bad players making bad choices have unit tags. Most of them. Yes, the absolute worst who literally can't get a unit to take them in are pugs. No question. However it is and has always been disingenuous to say that only pugs are bad players.

Certainly. There's even plenty of one man "units" out there, or people with unit tags that will never go play CW. There's even units that may as well be PUGs with a tag, because they're F-rank target practice with matching paint jobs.

But PUGs are the dregs, and the 48-0 winners will be units. Unit tags don't equal good, but the best groups, the ones that drive PUGs to suicide out will be unit ones. It's what it takes to rise above the trash- people you can depend on, the more the better.

[H I A S]

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:

Said warning screen just for reference. That every play has to click on...

Seems rather clear to me.

Two lies in one pic.
FP isnt competitive, let alone highly and QP has no skillbased matchmaker.
Fits perfectly fine into PGIs Statements. lol

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 30 December 2017 - 12:17 PM, said:

Certainly. There's even plenty of one man "units" out there, or people with unit tags that will never go play CW. There's even units that may as well be PUGs with a tag, because they're F-rank target practice with matching paint jobs.

But PUGs are the dregs, and the 48-0 winners will be units. Unit tags don't equal good, but the best groups, the ones that drive PUGs to suicide out will be unit ones. It's what it takes to rise above the trash- people you can depend on, the more the better.

Here's the thing. There's a lot of good players who are not dropping in units. We had a match go to time last night where a mostly pug group got ahead of us on kills while we had a tiny sliver more base damage against them.on Incursion. It was a close match we barely won. We had several go 48-30+ that were hard fought and well played.

Those bad pugs getting crushed 48-0? They would lose to other pugs. The idea that the terribads only lose to the top tier groups is inherently false. All that will change for them is the names on the other side. If you kicked every member of the top 5 units out of FW to.orrow all you would do is move 72 of the best pugs up to that spot and everyone who isn't them would still lose just as much. Then any time the top performers in units drop in the pug queue they will, again, win just as much.

It doesn't change the skill distribution. It doesn't make bad builds and bad choices work better. The bottom players are still the bottom. Nobody is being added uber tgem. They're not suddenly going to get better.

This is a common delusion of bottom performers. That if you remove the top performers they will "move up". That's not the case. They are still the bottom of the spectrum. If you removed the color blue from the color spectrum green doesn't suddenly become blue and red change to orange, etc. You just have a gap where blue is and it's now R O Y G I V. The only one who notices anything there is green, and when Blue does show up he's still a higher frequency than green.

That's the biggest argument against it. It doesn't make the bads not bad. It doesn't mean they magically get better or go away.

H I A S, on 30 December 2017 - 12:29 PM, said:

Two lies in one pic.
FP isnt competitive, let alone highly and QP has no skillbased matchmaker.
Fits perfectly fine into PGIs Statements. lol

Crossing the street is highly competitive compared to QP.

QP has a skill based matchmaker. There is just 5 tiers of bads, but they do in fact get progressively worse.

[H I A S]

With that Playerbase you are right but FP is even worse.
Grindbased, not skillbased. With skill you can make the grind faster, that's all.

[MischiefSC]

H I A S, on 30 December 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

With that Playerbase you are right but FP is even worse.
Grindbased, not skillbased. With skill you can make the grind faster, that's all.

There's a shocking number of players who lose a lot. So much they can't grind up. Did you know the w/l average for player population is about 0.8?

Think about that.

There's always worse players. Just the best of the worst still grind to t1.